Big East backs Donato's call

[Fan Of The Game]

Feb 12, 2008 21:52:30 GMT -5 Buckeye70 said:

Hoyatables: GLAD to see the Big East stand by its refs?

Oh, really?

Hoyatables, if there is a worse collection of misfit, miscast
people in stripes around the U.S. of A., with the possible
exception of the crackers running up and down the A.C.C.
floors, I haven't seen them.

Good lord, man, what game ARE you watching? The BIG (L)EAST
officials seem to never have met an opportunity to blow a
whistle they didn't like. Sort of a perverted Will Rogers moment.

Seriously.

I am an unapologetic Villanova alumnus and diehard fan, true,
but I am also a fan of good officiating.

Tell you what: Watch a game where Ted Hillary, Tom O'Neill
(who did come up with one of the most controversial calls in
Villanova history, whistling Allen Ray for traveling on a classic
drop step play near the basket while being fouled by an N.C
Tar Heel, a play that would have given us the lead with 9
seconds left in the '05 N.C.A.A. Sweet 16)...or Eddie Hightower,
Steve Welmer, Glenn Mayborg, Rick Hartzell, Tom Clark, Zelton
Steed, etc. are officiating.

They're from the BIG 10 and they let the players play and
determine the outcome. Don't know if you saw Sunday's Ohio
State-Indiana game from Columbus on CBS, but O'Neill/Hillary
and BIG EAST regular Jim Burr, who took time out from being
Cpl. Klinger to be a reasonable arbiter of basketball justice,
worked the game. Twenty-three fouls (as I pointed out on
another thread) in a game fairly similar to the G'town/'Nova
game playwise.

V.U./Georgetown? 48 fouls!!! Twenty-four per side. If you
seriously see that as exceptional
refereeing, you have a pretty perverted sense of hoops
justice.

Monday night, Hillary/O'Neill teamed with former BIG EASTer
Donnee Gray to work a solid game in the Michigan State/Purdue
game.

Maybe you like the sweet sound of the little pea bouncing around
inside the silver steel? But I guaran-damn-tee ya, most of us
do not.

It is time for a major change in the BIG EAST's style of officiating.
The Princeton patrician barrister who controls the comings and
goings of the league's refs is a piece of work. And it turns out,
so is the commish for defending this nonstop idiocy.

I am not crying foul re: V.U./Georgetown. Those things can occur
and it's just another mistake in a way too long journey filled
with them. It's time for a change at the top.

Period.

b70

Call me crazy, but I didn't think we technically had "Big East" refs in the way that football has conference officials. You might find a guy do a Big East game on Monday, an ACC game on Wednesday, and a Big Ten game on Saturday. Sure, there's a tendency to use the same guys and some guys will prefer to sign on to do certain games due to geography (almost all have other jobs). I don't know that there are secret meetings telling guys how to call games. OK, I do know at least in the ACC (my Dad works part time for them) that they have a pre-game meeting to make sure everyone is on the same page, but there is never anything discussed from a how tightly to call fouls perspective.

[SFHoya99]

There are no "Big East" refs in the vein that they only work BE games, but only certain refs work BE games. So there's a bunch of NCAA refs and not all of them will work BE games. But those refs that can also work a bunch of other conferences.

Ironically, all officiating has been overseen by a Nova grad for a long, long time, so Buckeye really has nothing to complain about. It's Villanova's fault if there is an issue.

[Cambridge]

Feb 13, 2008 15:35:22 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

There are no "Big East" refs in the vein that they only work BE games, but only certain refs work BE games. So there's a bunch of NCAA refs and not all of them will work BE games. But those refs that can also work a bunch of other conferences.

Ironically, all officiating has been overseen by a Nova grad for a long, long time, so Buckeye really has nothing to complain about. It's Villanova's fault if there is an issue.

Check the front page for a quote from said Nova grad.

"When a guy has the ball and gets body-bumped and the body bump forces him to go out of bounds... the referee has two choices," said Hank Nichols, national coordinator of basketball officials, in this link to the Philadelphia Inquirer. Nichols, a Villanova basketball alumnus and former professor at the school in addition to his referee duties, agreed that "he either has to call the foul or call the guy for out of bounds. It's the judgment on the referee's part on what was more important on the play."

"Regardless of how much time is left at the end of the game, if there's a call to be made, you call it," Nichols said. "It doesn't matter the time or score, because if you don't, and it's a meaningful play, somebody's going to get the bad end of it because you didn't do what you were supposed to do."

[CTHoya08]

So who is this "Princeton barrister patrician" that is the object of such obsession for Buckeye?

[Buckeye70]

CT Hoya: The name Arthur Hyland ring a bell? You can call it
anything you want, but I question the man's credentials to
sit in judgement of who should/who shouldn't be officiating
BIG EAST games. Maybe he's fine for the athletically-challenged
Ivy League, but he's clueless re: the types of kids who play
in the BIG EAST and has been ever since he was appointed to
his position in the 1980s.

That said, those who feel quoting Hank Nichols solves the issue
are simply off base.

It is all about flexibility. Granted, Dr. Hank (whom I know well
and respect strongly, by the way) has forgotten a whole lot more
about this great game than I'll ever hope to know...but...

1. The by-the-book approach is favored by some, but there are
any number of officials throughout the country who allow for
leeway. Gee, the Georgetown player got bumped (arguable,
by the way...because there are more than a few who saw Stokes
as the original bumpee, not bumper).
But the upshot with many referees is yes, in fact, they do take a
pass on blowing the whistle in a situation like that. I'm sorry,
that's reality. I've seen it on the prep, college AND pro level.

2. There's no way Donato didn't know there was precious little
time left. And with many officials at every level, trust me on this,
there is an unwritten rule that you swallow the whistle in game
situations like that. Like it or not.

3. Some of your fans must be huge fans of the 2:20 game, with
incessant whistle-blowing and anticipation/contact calls. Mike
Kitts, Tim Higgins, Pat Driscoll, among others, are masters at
this.

Some of my Big 10 friends are absolutely dumbstruck by such
officiating.

Last winter, at Notre Dame, Villanova was riding along early-mid
second half with a fairly comfortable 7-8 point lead it didn't seem
likely to lose.

Then, voila, within the space of 1 minute, 11 seconds, there
was good ol' Bernard Clinton whistling Villanova's Dante
Cunningham for three of the quickest touch-fouls in college
basketball history.

Jay went ballistic, quite understandably, on #3, and picked up
the obligatory technical and the 3-foul sequence took the oomph
out of our inside play and eventually resulted in a 66-63 defeat.

I don't come from the east coast of when-in-doubt-blow-the-
whistle. I don't apologize one iota for it, either.

I respect any team's body of work, even those for whom I have
little regard. I have nothing but respect for Georgetown and its
role in the V.U./Georgetown series, which produces some of the
league's most compelling games.

But I shudder when I see yet another group of bumbling goofs
in stripes who can play a painfully-overbearing role.

The best officials, it has been my finding, are those who are
virtually invisible, guys who just simply let the players decide
the game's fate and make sure things don't get out of control
while at the same time fairly enforcing the rules.

But NOT overenforcing them.

There are thousands and thousands of BIG EAST fans who would
both agree and disagree with me. Your somewhat tighter
restrictions on registration tend to keep opposing folks off the
boards and that's fine. I understand some of that, I guess.

But I am sure if you were visited by the many Villanova fans who
offer worthwhile takes on Monday night, you'd better understand
this line of thinking.

That all said, good luck to you in your pursuit of Connecticut and
Louisville. I'd be much happier if the Hoyas come out on top.
You've got a pretty solid group and J.T.3 is one of the classiest
guys in all of college basketball.

b70

[nathanhm]

Pursuit of UConn & LVille?

Check the standings they are pursuing us, we are pursuing the league title.

[hoyatables]

I've got it! Buckeye is doing a recreation of the famed Esherick rant.

[Filo]

Buckeye - you've really got to stop pretending in every post that there is a slew of Hoya fans out there who enjoyed the way the game was called. You somehow overlooked the 500 or so posts complaining about the ridiculous number of fouls called?

Get over that intellectual dishonesty and we might even begin to take your posts seriously. Then, if all goes well, we might even invite some more Villanova fans to enlighten us and help us understand their way of thinking.

[Madgesdiq]

Where is El Vado when you need him?

[SFHoya99]

Buckeye,

I think you've completely misinterpreted the "by the book" approach. I have a friend who is adamant about this, but it is isn't that officials should call every foul exactly as it is in the book.

It is that the officials should not change what is a foul and what isn't because of game situation. In other words, if it is a foul earlier, it is a foul at the end. No "by the book" person I know wants a 60 foul game, they just want consistency from play to play. Seems like that is most fair to the players.

Anyway, if you are worried about officiating, you really might want to focus on Wright's coaching. All your guards push off with their off arm; all your big men chip on moving screens. Your team is taught to commit an offensive foul pretty much on every play. That's got to be an issue.

[lurkerhoya]

And now for my unrespected THIRD post (lest you be fooled I've been a lurker for 6 years and only registered to post a few quotes in the pre-game thread. This, however, has been one of my biggest issues with BE hoops for a while now, so here goes):

Buckeye, sadly. is spot on.

I am consistently amazed at the number of games marred by terrible officiating. AND it always seems to be the same few guys jockeying the whistle which is what makes it such a problem.

I can usually tell what kind of game we're in for when I see who is officiating. There are several types:

1. Those who simply don't understand when to let play go {those with the block-or-charge mentality]

2. Those who think they are the show.

3. (and worst of all) the Donatos who are a combo of 1 and 2.

It would have been nice for the BE to say, they got it wrong. That was a game that deserved another 5 minutes....

[Buckeye70]

As we used to say in Western PA and Ohio, I admire the passions
of alla yinz.

I really do and you obviously know your hoops.

To Filo specifically, if I came across as thinking
the majority of Hoyas fans like that type of officiating, mea culpa.

I did post "some of your fans," but I'd hope in no way that
implies the vast majority or even most.

That said, I respect where eacch and every one of you comes
from. I just remember the bewildered look on J.T.3's face as he
came over to shake Jay's hand. I don't think he was particularly
happy to see the game end on such an arbitrary manner.

To S.F.: I think a lot of coaches teach this. Coaches will teach
kids to do things to get an advantage, and Jay and J.T.3 are
no different in this respect. It's simply part of the game. Pushing
off as you cite it can be called like holding could be called on
every N.H.L. or N.F.L. play.

I am one of Bob Knight's biggest fans, and the guy has been a
brilliant coach and mastermind of a lot of success at Indiana and
even some at previously-dead Texas Tech...and Army as well.

But one of the things about coach Knight's offense was the
overabundance of moving screens that "opened" players for
good looks from 3-point range and other shots.

That's a simple example. Be it Syracuse or South Carolina,
you'll see the constant battle for the edge wherever you go.

b70

[SFHoya99]

Buckeye,

I'm not saying Wright should or shouldn't do teach borderline fouls as a tactic. But IF you coach it, you have to be aware that it's going to be an issue in a tightly called game, no? Obviously, if your talent is good enough, you don't need to do that junk. But it's a viable strategy when you aren't loaded with All-Americans. Just that when a ref calls it tight, you kinda have to see it coming, right?

[hifigator]

Feb 12, 2008 22:46:28 GMT -5 Cambridge said:

My problem with Nova (and Vandy) fans is that they always seem to remember the "slights" by the officials and never seem to recall all the "gifts." Your boy Scottie Reynolds pushes off on every dribble penetration. Your forwards committed numerous moving screens. Your team rebounded over the back every time on the defensive end. Not many of those were called either. We get it. The officiating was bad, but Nova certainly didn't deserve to win the game. Nor was the last foul any worse or any better than any of the other calls and non-calls.

You harp on and on and on about the injustice, the unfairness, the travesty of it all for years and years. I knew you would bring up the UNC thing. I just knew it. Is this just a philly thing? Can you just not deal with the reality of it all and have to find boogie men who are directing the fates against you?

I was in bed home sick all day Monday and Tuesday, so I didn't get to enjoy the game as much as I would have liked to. Still, I do remember a ton of over the back calls that were not made. As long as the refs are consistent, then we really can't complain, but you are certainly right to point those out. As for the last foul, I didn't think he "would" call it, but that isn't the same as saying he "shouldn't" have called it. Whoever said that it was because he knocked him out of bounds hit the nail on the head. The ref doesn't know exactly how much time is on the clock. He knows it is winding down, but beyond that ... Had he known that it was ultimately going to be .1 or .2 seconds, then maybe he let's the call go and blows the whistle for stepping out of bounds, effectively sending the game to overtime. But if there is a half-second more, then he could just as easily been handing the game to Nova, giving them the ball in front court of a tie game with .6 or .7 left -- plenty of time to get off a reasonable shot. In retrospect, you could certainly argue that it was a questionable call, but not nearly of the egregious nature that Jay Bilas implied. I thought it was pretty much of a bone-headed play in the first place to try to pin him on the sidelines in the back court with so little time left. It kind of reminded me of another game over the weekend where someone tried a 3/4 court shot at the buzzer and the idiot contested the shot. Fortunately they didn't call the foul, but he very easily could have been awarded 3 shots. The bottom line is you can't blame the refs for that call, but you can blame the player for even giving the ref the opportunity in that situation.

[hifigator]

Feb 14, 2008 10:48:36 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Buckeye,

I think you've completely misinterpreted the "by the book" approach. I have a friend who is adamant about this, but it is isn't that officials should call every foul exactly as it is in the book.

It is that the officials should not change what is a foul and what isn't because of game situation. In other words, if it is a foul earlier, it is a foul at the end. No "by the book" person I know wants a 60 foul game, they just want consistency from play to play. Seems like that is most fair to the players.

Anyway, if you are worried about officiating, you really might want to focus on Wright's coaching. All your guards push off with their off arm; all your big men chip on moving screens. Your team is taught to commit an offensive foul pretty much on every play. That's got to be an issue.

Although I agree with you on the major issue here, I disagree with one of your premises. There are times when calls should be handled differently in the late minutes of the game. No one wants the refs to decide the game. In all honesty, this is an area that I think the refs do a fairly good job in general. If you think about it, there aren't many of these discussions and just think about how many down to the wire hoops games there are. In any case, because the bump was right at the sidelines, then the call had to be made. But had the same contact happened in the middle of the floor, then I don't think it would necessarily need to be made in the last few seconds, but could have easily been made earlier in the game. The bottom line is that I disagree that you can say blankety that all calls should be called exaclty the same way for the entire game, although I understand someone having that opinion.

[Elvado]

Let's get down to brass tacks here:

The call (correct by the by) resulted in harm to Villanova and is thus inherently good.

[Deleted]

Well, thank God hifi finally chimed in. This thread was lacking his reason and wisdom.