Iowa!!!

[Coast2CoastHoya]

exorcist - i see your point, but how do you reconcile the fact that primaries appeal to and are driven by the more extreme elements of each party and the "us vs them" reality The Ambassador identified?

[Bando]

Wow. Elvado, you sound like Bill O'Reilly...but dumber. Yes the Clintons are all about aggrandizing power. Bush, you see, never does any of that sort of thing.

[Elvado]

Leave it to a Clintonista to turn the debate to the faults of others. GWB is irrelevant to this discussion, almost as irrlelevant as HRC will soon be nationally.

[Coast2CoastHoya]

vadie, what evidence do you have that bando is a Clintonista?

Let's play a game called "You Know It's Election Season When _____________"

I'll start.

1. baseless name-calling begins
2. holier-than-thou semantics start becoming mistaken for substantive discussion
3. hypocrisy replaces Chicken Little-ism on HoyaTalk

[Elvado]

My evidence lies in his immediate turn to a tried and true Clinton tactic of attacking the messenger. His ad hominem attack is right out of the Little Rock playbook.

[Coast2CoastHoya]

no offence vadie, but linking bando to Clinton on that basis tells me you're confusing coincidence with causality. it also tells me that you're not accustomed to his posting style, which has nothing to do with which candidate he suports.

also, what you identify as a Clinton tactic is a basic human tendency employed by candidates and leaders of every major political party (indeed, of almost anyone seeking to have or keep power or money) since the beginning of time - most recently by Bush, Cheney, and Rove.

the phrase "don't kill the messenger" dates back to sophocles. it was also employed by shakespeare. it has nothing to do with contemporary political alignment or your perception of Hillary Clinton as evil. and before you jump down my throat, i'm neither a democrat nor a Clinton supporter; just someone making an observation. if ad hominem attacks and misdirection are out of any president's playbook, it's Nixon's.

[Boz]

Jan 8, 2008 18:00:35 GMT -5 Coast2CoastHoya said:

the phrase "don't kill the messenger" dates back to sophocles. it was also employed by shakespeare. it has nothing to do with contemporary political alignment or your perception of Hillary Clinton as evil.

Unbelievable! C2C is now saying that Hillary is a greater person than either Sophocles or Shakespeare!

Your words!!

;D ;D ;D

(sorry, the most recent dose of NyQuil earlier today still has me a little punchy; that and Colbert came back last night )

[Coast2CoastHoya]

classic.

by explaining i'll be pulling a hifi, but i was merely pointing out that it's not fair to ascribe the practice to any single political camp. i'll make the same defense for bush - he didn't start the fire, it was always burnin' since the worlds been turnin'. of course, though they didn't light it, neither bush nor hillary has tried to fight it.

[on edit: ah, glad to have colbert back. now, how about some more truthiness to spice up the waiting time until the NH results come in? enjoy the nyquil, boz]

[Boz]

Jan 8, 2008 18:18:35 GMT -5 Coast2CoastHoya said:

uh .... ok.

not sure if you're joking and by explaining i'll be pulling a hifi, but i was merely pointing out that the practice of attacking the messenger has been around long enough for two of the great western playwrights to write against the practice in their works, and that it's not fair to ascribe the practice to any single political camp. i'll make the same defence for bush - he didn't start the fire, it was always burnin' since the worlds been turnin'. of course, though they didn't light it, neither bush nor hillary has tried to fight it.

[on edit: ah, glad to have colbert back. now, how about some more truthiness to spice up the waiting time until the NH results come in? enjoy the nyquil, boz]

Wow, Billy Joel, huh?

I was kidding before, but now I'm not so sure. ;D

On an unrelated note, there should be federal mandatory minimums for possession of NyQuil.

[Coast2CoastHoya]

ack, i was editing right before you replied. now i look like more of a tool than i already am. all this political tawk, for some reason, reminded me of when billy joel showed up ham-wasted at GU for a show, so i rolled with it.

[Elvado]

The other more circumstantial evidence is that Bando was 12 when the First Fornicator was elected (a perfect age to buy into Clintonian politics); I firmly believe he was hooked early and can't let go.

[Bando]

Boy, did I miss some fun today. No, Elvado, I'm not a Clinton supporter, although I certainly don't hate her with all my soul like you do, and I certainly wouldn't be upset if she won the nomination.

However, I don't like a-holes. You're an a-hole, a sexist, idiotic, bile-throwing a-hole.

[Bando]

First Fornicator!
Prevaricator-in-Cheif!
Lady McRodham!

What will this rapier wit come up with next?

[theexorcist]

Jan 7, 2008 17:54:22 GMT -5 Coast2CoastHoya said:

exorcist - i see your point, but how do you reconcile the fact that primaries appeal to and are driven by the more extreme elements of each party and the "us vs them" reality The Ambassador identified?

Fair. I think that the Democratic Party is haunted by the "I can't believe we lost to this guy - twice" idea. They see Huckabee with any support at all, freak, and think that, if they lose again, they're going to live in Jesustan.

Clinton spent a lot of time preying on this fear and focusing on Edwards (who's a more traditional Democratic nominee), emphasizing that he's too far to the left to get elected. Hillary kept on saying that she might not be as left as Edwards, but she was good enough to win.

The problem is that I'm assuming that she was banking on Obama flaming out without any help (Dodd and Biden were also trying to suck up oxygen molecules from some Gary Hart incident). Didn't happen. In fact, Obama came out, passed Edwards, and attacked Hillary by being a stunning public speaker and zapping Hillary for being too far to the right (notice his comments on her and the war - for all his comments on change, he still holds a few key net roots ideals true to his heart).

I don't think Edwards can win the nomination with Hillary in the race - the Democrats will wise up and realize that things are pretty good for most people, and rising up to destroy the upper class won't make you competitive. That makes his deal with Obama pretty smart - Edwards needs to take her down.

If Hillary drops out, this becomes a race between Obama, who is very fuzzy on the specifics, and Edwards, whose specifics are known and kind of negative (but more traditionally Democratic). I'd assume that Edwards would then wait for a) Obama to trip up, or b) say that he's the real Democratic nominee rather than someone who lots of Republicans like. In this case, the Ambassador's words make a lot of sense.

Obama can (and should probably still) win in this scenario, though, even though he's closer to the center than Edwards. Lots of young voters will help (caught up in his rock star candidacy and the hope it generates). Obama would also probably go back to Hillary's attacks against him. Finally, it would be hard for people to switch from thinking that Obama's the best choice to Edwards (given his lack of traction until now, however, Edwards hasn't had much of a choice).

Short summary of the above - Hillary should have run a brutal campaign to destroy Obama as soon as he seemed like he was becoming a threat.

[Elvado]

Bando: Check back in when you grow up. Congrats on Lady McRodham's win.

[Bando]

I find it weird that you think I'm being childish when the Clintons apparently reduce you calling them names.

[Elvado]

This from the "man" who referred to me as a "sexist, idiotic, bile-throwing a-hole"

Have fun at recess. I hope no one stuffs you in a locker today.

[Jack]

Jan 10, 2008 14:02:20 GMT -5 Elvado said:

This from the "man" who referred to me as a "sexist, idiotic, bile-throwing a-hole"

Have fun at recess. I hope no one stuffs you in a locker today.

Bando's criticism, while certainly ad hominem and perhaps beneath the level of discourse one might aspire to, is not so much name-calling as it is characterization- you are without question all of those things, at least in your online persona.

Had he sought to respond to your pithy witticisms in kind he might have just called you Smellvado.

[hifigator]

Oh, wait a minute. You guys were being serious. I thought this was just a little bit (a VERY little bit) of free comedic entertainment.

[Elvado]

I simply find it amazing that he took offense at being called a Clintonista. I take nosuch offense at being called a Reaganite.

Finally, it's all good as long as we all hate Syracuse.