Cambridge
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Canes Pugnaces
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Post by Cambridge on May 11, 2006 16:12:25 GMT -5
Nash being on this list is a joke. Plain and simple.
Pros: He can fast break and has great court vision. He has probably thrown more alley oops than anyone in the history of basketball. Uncanny knack to anticipate defenders movements and defensive sets.
Mediocres: His shooting is average. Has a decent first step, but lacks real open court speed (a la Iverson or Parker for example)
Cons: Abissmal end of game shooter. (Check out 82games.com for that stat = 1/16 when game on line with 24 seconds or less) He is perhaps the worst defender on a woeful defensive team. Many of his stats (assists) are inflated by the mere presence of some of the more efficient offensive players in the league as his go to guys.
Basically if he wasn't a doofy white boy with floppy hair....well you know where I'm going.
As for the MVP debate...it's a travesty Nash won again.
Let me ask you this, if you replaced Nash with Kidd, Billups, Paul or Parker how many more games would Phoenix have lost? Maybe 10?
If you replaced Kobe or LeBron or Wade with Pierce, Wells, Richardson, Rip how many more games would Lakers/Cavs/Heat have lost? How would any of those teams not have lost 20 more games?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 11, 2006 16:48:32 GMT -5
It's not controversial. Just using PER as an end state stat isn't the right use.
Nash is awful on defense, my bad.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 11, 2006 17:29:32 GMT -5
C'mon HSB! Critical reading skills! You're better than this man! Here, let me highlight 3Generations point for you:
Today at 2:57pm, 3GenerationHoya wrote:I think the really confusing part was that Pippin was among those "receiving votes" while Iverson was not. Sure Pip brought the ball up some during the championship years, but no way I would consider him more worthy of a vote for best point guard ahead of Iverson. crazy. My point was the people who wrote this didn't consider AI a point guard I don't see how my point is wrong. I mean if you go to the poll question 6 asks Should Ai be on the top 10 list options No he's not a point guard, yes he a point guard in my book, or he's a point guard but not top 10. He's not a point guard is winning in a landslide. While I don't consider Pippen a point guard either obviously the person who made the list considered him one because "Sure Pip brought the ball up some during the championship years." but still doesn't consider AI i one. There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. While it's still ridiculous that they think Pippen is a PG the truth is neither of them is a PG.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on May 11, 2006 17:31:59 GMT -5
The extent to which Nash is overrated really sticks out when one considers the "Canadian markdown factor." Canadian "dollars" (those bastards have no right to use that term) are worth about (that's about, not a-boot, Canadians) 90% of US REAL dollars. Therefore, one has to apply that markdown to all things Canadian. Thus, Bill Murray and Jim Carrey are only 90% as funny, Pamela Anderson is only 90% as hot, and Nash's stats are only 90% as good, making him even more absurdly overrated.
And he needs to cut his hair.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 11, 2006 18:30:06 GMT -5
Does that mean everyone European player is vastly underrated?
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on May 11, 2006 20:35:43 GMT -5
Does that mean everyone European player is vastly underrated? No, only Frederic Weis.
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on May 11, 2006 21:01:59 GMT -5
Nash being on this list is a joke. Plain and simple. Pros: He can fast break and has great court vision. He has probably thrown more alley oops than anyone in the history of basketball. Uncanny knack to anticipate defenders movements and defensive sets. Mediocres: His shooting is average. Has a decent first step, but lacks real open court speed (a la Iverson or Parker for example) Cons: Abissmal end of game shooter. (Check out 82games.com for that stat = 1/16 when game on line with 24 seconds or less) He is perhaps the worst defender on a woeful defensive team. Many of his stats (assists) are inflated by the mere presence of some of the more efficient offensive players in the league as his go to guys. Basically if he wasn't a doofy white boy with floppy hair....well you know where I'm going. As for the MVP debate...it's a travesty Nash won again. Let me ask you this, if you replaced Nash with Kidd, Billups, Paul or Parker how many more games would Phoenix have lost? Maybe 10? If you replaced Kobe or LeBron or Wade with Pierce, Wells, Richardson, Rip how many more games would Lakers/Cavs/Heat have lost? How would any of those teams not have lost 20 more games? This thread contains some of the most ill-conceived logic and idiocy that I have ever read on HoyaTalk. It is material one would expect on a SU*cks board. There is not a GM in the NBA who would take Iverson over Nash if they were putting together a team next year.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 11, 2006 23:16:32 GMT -5
Nash being on this list is a joke. Plain and simple. Pros: He can fast break and has great court vision. He has probably thrown more alley oops than anyone in the history of basketball. Uncanny knack to anticipate defenders movements and defensive sets. Mediocres: His shooting is average. Has a decent first step, but lacks real open court speed (a la Iverson or Parker for example) Cons: Abissmal end of game shooter. (Check out 82games.com for that stat = 1/16 when game on line with 24 seconds or less) He is perhaps the worst defender on a woeful defensive team. Many of his stats (assists) are inflated by the mere presence of some of the more efficient offensive players in the league as his go to guys. Basically if he wasn't a doofy white boy with floppy hair....well you know where I'm going. As for the MVP debate...it's a travesty Nash won again. Let me ask you this, if you replaced Nash with Kidd, Billups, Paul or Parker how many more games would Phoenix have lost? Maybe 10? If you replaced Kobe or LeBron or Wade with Pierce, Wells, Richardson, Rip how many more games would Lakers/Cavs/Heat have lost? How would any of those teams not have lost 20 more games? This thread contains some of the most ill-conceived logic and idiocy that I have ever read on HoyaTalk. It is material one would expect on a SU*cks board. There is not a GM in the NBA who would take Iverson over Nash if they were putting together a team next year. If Mike D'Antoni was coaching Allen Iverson, and he was allowed to play in this style, you would see many take Iverson over Nash. Iverson deserved more MVP talk last year when he had a system that was Phoenix "lite" and he's put together back to back seasons in terms of ppg and assists per game that only 3 others in history of game have done. Biggest question when regarding talent you have to ask is if you take a player off that team, how would they peform? Dallas replaces Nash with Jason Terry and they have a better record then when Nash played there. Iverson plays on an NBDL team. Shavlik Randolph plays for God's sake and he couldn't play at Duke! Nash is a great player, but to compare him to Allen Iverson is a joke--and if you can't see that, you don't know basketball. There is a difference in carrying terrible teams on your back and having talent surround you. I don't blame Steve Nash, but I certainly don't buy this garbage that he's the most valuable player or best player in the World.
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Post by RockawayHoya on May 11, 2006 23:40:30 GMT -5
I'll weigh in with my 2 cents:
Being a fan of GU, obviously I root for AI (I would even if he wasn't a former Hoya, honestly). But to say he is FAR better than Nash would be wrong. Sure, Nash is as much as of defensive liability as you can get, but AI hasn't exactly been tearing it up on defense the past few years either. AI is obviously the better pure scorer and athlete, but Nash is the better shooter and distributor (which is why a comparison of the two players is a little ridiculous, because one's a PG and one's a SG). Nash is also not an average shooter (48% FG, 42% 3PT for his career), as some have claimed.
If I had to build a team from scratch, personally I'd take Nash. AI is an unbelievable scorer, one of the best competitors ever, and certainly one of, if not the best under 6'0 players ever in NBA history. But Nash IMHO makes his teammates better, and that's more valuable than a guy who can pour in 35 PPG at will.
Having said all this, Nash definitely didn't deserve the MVP this year. I would have given it to Kobe (atrocious supporting cast, although Odom definitely did grow up in this postseason), or Lebron (Ilgauskas and Larry Hughes are two of the most overrated players in the NBA, and he WILLED that team himself to 50 wins). Probably Lebron, because no way I'd take anyone on the Cavs as a second option over Odom.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 12, 2006 0:22:59 GMT -5
Ugh, the old "he makes his teammates better" argument. Think about what was just said here. This idea that Nash somehow "makes his teammates better" was just taken over "pouring in 35ppg at will."
Here's news: if you need to be triple-teamed everytime up the floor your teammates not only get your assists but also the easy buckets created by the attention being paid to you by the defense. That's offensive rebounds, defenses out of rotation, and everything else.
"He makes his teammates better" is what all great players do in one way or another and that's not a matter of statistics. That's why Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis are good players and Iverson and Kobe are great even though on the surface all four are ball hogs. Two of them have won countless playoff games by knowing when to take the game over and when to defer to teammates. The other two have never won a playoff series regardless of supporting cast.
So I'm not buying that Iverson doesn't make his teammates better and Nash does simply because Nash defers more as a function of the fact that he CAN'T take a game over. If anyone wants to start a team with Nash, go ahead. It wouldn't be a waste to get Nash, but there are plenty of players ahead of him.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 12, 2006 1:05:01 GMT -5
I know nobody on this site is claiming this as a point, but if you switched Iverson with Nash, you honestly think Philly is a better team then Phoenix? I think Philly wins 20 games tops if AI is gone and if Iverson is in same system/role as Nash, I think that team wins the same amount of games--if not more. Remember Iverson took Raja Bell, Jumaine Jones, Eric Snow, Rodney Buford to the NBA Finals with him and took a game from a Lakers team who swept everyone in the Western Conference and destroyed the Spurs so badly it was comical. Nash is not capable of that--hell he got stretched to 7 by a team that had Kobe Bryant and a bunch of role players. He's already 1 up with Clippers and that has makings of a long series too. I like the guy, but the level he's being placed at as an individual player is not accurate. He is a great PG and fits what Phoenix does, but I find it hard to figure that if he was so dominant/great, that Dallas could function at a level they have and surpass what they did when he was on the team? Imagine AI leaving and Philly winning 60 games and putting up Nash's numbers with Stoudemire last year and Shawn Marion,etc...and getting same credit? No way that happens. The critics would point out what Philly is doing without him. With Nash it's different and I'd like to know why?
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YB
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Post by YB on May 12, 2006 1:39:12 GMT -5
I dunno.... everyone on the Suns this year is having a career year. Last year, everyone on the Suns had a career year. I don't know about Nash being top 5 over the course of his career, yet, but the last 2 years he's had have been awesome: look at the Suns' talent and their 2 consecutive Pac div titles. Look at Nash's ast and shooting #s: he's shooting over 50% for the season. AI is a fantastic player, but he'd give his right arm to shoot over 50% in a game!
Thing about AI is that he's never made getting teammates involved a priority- that's why I'd say he's a 2, not a pg. AI is better defensively by a mile, much quicker, a much, much worse shooter, and a worse passer. You'd like to have them both but for different reasons and I think it's comparing apples and oranges.
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Post by theEDGEfactor on May 12, 2006 5:33:49 GMT -5
i know the suns better than ne1 prolly...nash makes his team the best...8 guys are having career years on the suns...ai is not a passing pg hes a scoring one thats why i think hes not looked at as the better pg...when you get 2 straight mvps of the league for only the 9th time, there really should be no controversy over it.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 12, 2006 9:45:02 GMT -5
i know the suns better than ne1 prolly...nash makes his team the best...8 guys are having career years on the suns...ai is not a passing pg hes a scoring one thats why i think hes not looked at as the better pg...when you get 2 straight mvps of the league for only the 9th time, there really should be no controversy over it. Except for a good % of NBA fans think those MVPs were undeserved. Not saying me, but there's been a whole lot of disagreement.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 12, 2006 10:02:32 GMT -5
I dunno.... everyone on the Suns this year is having a career year. Last year, everyone on the Suns had a career year. I don't know about Nash being top 5 over the course of his career, yet, but the last 2 years he's had have been awesome: look at the Suns' talent and their 2 consecutive Pac div titles. Look at Nash's ast and shooting #s: he's shooting over 50% for the season. AI is a fantastic player, but he'd give his right arm to shoot over 50% in a game! Thing about AI is that he's never made getting teammates involved a priority- that's why I'd say he's a 2, not a pg. AI is better defensively by a mile, much quicker, a much, much worse shooter, and a worse passer. You'd like to have them both but for different reasons and I think it's comparing apples and oranges. AI shot 45/46% from the field this year and he has to earn it with defenses focusing on him. If he was allowed to play in D'Antoni's style, you don't think he could shoot 50%? How many of Nash's shots are layups? If you can't make those, you shouldn't be in the league. I understand the disagreement based on stats although I believe it's why statistical analysis is ridiculous because Nash's best two years will both end up in similar ending--no appearance in the NBA Finals. If he does it this year, Suns will get destroyed by Detroit. Now if it's "his year", Dallas will upset Spurs, everyone on the Pistons will get typhoid fever and somehow the Heat will win the East. However, I think we all know that best team is going to win and that's Detroit. I also think Clippers could take out Suns and if they do, I don't want to hear about Nash as an all time great. You take any of the names he now shares company with off their teams and they drop. Dallas is better without him. As for "career years", if you can't have a career offensive year in D'Antoni's system, you don't belong in the NBA. Despite what people think who don't follow the league, these are the best players in the World and they can shoot the ball--so if you give them freedom, they can perform on offense--which MCI has correctly pointed out numerous times. It's the overcoaching and maniacal "Grip" the coaches keep on the game that has made NBA basketball less appealing to the fan, not the players.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on May 12, 2006 14:14:36 GMT -5
I am not a big Steve Nash fan, but I will give him the credit he deserves. You could make a good case for Lebron, Wade, Dirk and others "deserving" the MVP, but that doesn't mean that Nash didn't. I think Colin Cowherd pretty much nailed it. He had Magic and Oscar as 1 and 2 point guards of all time. He had Isaiah Thomas #3 and Stockton #4 and Nash at #5. Now personally I think he needs to put up big numbers for another couple of years to be thought of at such an elite level, but there is very little argument that he is at the level now. He did have Iverson in the second five. I don't remember the exact order, but he had Bob Cousy at #8. He did catch a bag of grief from some Celtic fans for this but his argument was about the talkent surrounding COusy. In any case it made for pretty good radio.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on May 12, 2006 15:49:40 GMT -5
I am not a big Steve Nash fan, but I will give him the credit he deserves. You could make a good case for Lebron, Wade, Dirk and others "deserving" the MVP, but that doesn't mean that Nash didn't. I think Colin Cowherd pretty much nailed it. He had Magic and Oscar as 1 and 2 point guards of all time. He had Isaiah Thomas #3 and Stockton #4 and Nash at #5. Now personally I think he needs to put up big numbers for another couple of years to be thought of at such an elite level, but there is very little argument that he is at the level now. He did have Iverson in the second five. I don't remember the exact order, but he had Bob Cousy at #8. He did catch a bag of grief from some Celtic fans for this but his argument was about the talkent surrounding COusy. In any case it made for pretty good radio. Nash couldn't hold Cousy's jock strap. Cousy, when clean-shaven, radiated the heat of three suns.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on May 12, 2006 16:12:44 GMT -5
I am not a big Steve Nash fan, but I will give him the credit he deserves. You could make a good case for Lebron, Wade, Dirk and others "deserving" the MVP, but that doesn't mean that Nash didn't. I think Colin Cowherd pretty much nailed it. He had Magic and Oscar as 1 and 2 point guards of all time. He had Isaiah Thomas #3 and Stockton #4 and Nash at #5. Now personally I think he needs to put up big numbers for another couple of years to be thought of at such an elite level, but there is very little argument that he is at the level now. He did have Iverson in the second five. I don't remember the exact order, but he had Bob Cousy at #8. He did catch a bag of grief from some Celtic fans for this but his argument was about the talkent surrounding COusy. In any case it made for pretty good radio. Nash couldn't hold Cousy's jock strap. Cousy, when clean-shaven, radiated the heat of three suns. I have seen some old footage, but Cousy was really before my time so it's impossible for me to make a valid assessment. But as much as I hate to admit it, I think Nash deserves a lot of credit. ESPN showed a list of the back to back NBA MVP winners and it was pretty damn impressive. There wasn't a single dud on there at all. And they weren't just good players, they were mostly the best. I don't remember the whole list but it included Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberain, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan and Tim Duncan ... and of course Steve Nash. Dang it, I don't really like the guy or his politics ... but I have to give him his dues.
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miamihoya
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Post by miamihoya on May 12, 2006 19:54:37 GMT -5
guys im a suns fan and a gtown fan...so its kinda hard the thing is nash is the better player as of right now...dont think ne1 can detest that...theres a reason why hes beaten the likes of kobe, shaq, lj, tmac, and dirk for mvp 2 years in a row.. your right there is a reason..the voters have gotten in wrong for two straight years because they are blinded by the fact that a white canadian boy can play ball. I'll take kobe, shaq (last year), or dirk, or james on my team over Nash anyday...Last time i checked, Dallas has IMPROVED ever since nash left, so how do you figure that he is more valuable than Dirk?
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on May 13, 2006 11:17:54 GMT -5
guys im a suns fan and a gtown fan...so its kinda hard the thing is nash is the better player as of right now...dont think ne1 can detest that...theres a reason why hes beaten the likes of kobe, shaq, lj, tmac, and dirk for mvp 2 years in a row.. your right there is a reason..the voters have gotten in wrong for two straight years because they are blinded by the fact that a white canadian boy can play ball. I'll take kobe, shaq (last year), or dirk, or james on my team over Nash anyday...Last time i checked, Dallas has IMPROVED ever since nash left, so how do you figure that he is more valuable than Dirk? You are preaching to the choir to a degree. I don't like Nash much, but I am not going to pretend he doesn't exist. At least on the offensive end, he is incredibly talented and extremely valuable. I would rather Wade, James or Nowitzki have been given the honors for sure, but they didn't leave it up to me. That being said, only a stubborn mule would deny Nash's accomplishments.
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