aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on May 11, 2006 13:03:50 GMT -5
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YB
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Post by YB on May 11, 2006 13:07:49 GMT -5
I saw that too Aggy, but I'd say Ivo was more of a 2 than a pg. In that, he'd be certainly one of the top 5 SGs of all-time, no?
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 11, 2006 13:15:40 GMT -5
This Nash thing has gotten out of control.
He is NOT MVP! Let's stop that nonsense right now. He also is NOT one of the best point guards ever.
Even statistically in that chart he's a DISASTER compared to the other guys. He's 9th in scoring, 9th in rebounds, and 9th in assists. Give 2pts for every assist and here's how the total scoring shakes out in that top 10.
Magic 41.9
O 44.7
Thomas 37.8
Stockton 34.1
Cousy 33.4
Frazier 31.1
Kidd 33
Tiny 33.2
Payton 30.7
Nash 27.7
He's not even close. Well I guess he makes up for that with his .8 steals per game average.
It's such a joke that he's MVP in a league with Lebron James.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on May 11, 2006 13:23:56 GMT -5
This is a joke.
And by the way. Allen Iverson IS a PG. A very good one. It just stinks when you have to pass the ball to the likes of Samuel Dalembert, Shavlik Randolph, and Stepen Hunter, as opposed to Amare Stoudamire (last year), Boris Diaw, Tim Thomas, and Shawn Marion.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on May 11, 2006 13:36:34 GMT -5
This Nash thing has gotten out of control. He is NOT MVP! Let's stop that nonsense right now. He also is NOT one of the best point guards ever. Even statistically in that chart he's a DISASTER compared to the other guys. He's 9th in scoring, 9th in rebounds, and 9th in assists. Give 2pts for every assist and here's how the total scoring shakes out in that top 10. Magic 41.9 O 44.7 Thomas 37.8 Stockton 34.1 Cousy 33.4 Frazier 31.1 Kidd 33 Tiny 33.2 Payton 30.7 Nash 27.7He's not even close. Well I guess he makes up for that with his .8 steals per game average. It's such a joke that he's MVP in a league with Lebron James. Iverson has average 28 pts/game and 6.1 assists/game over his career, which would put him 3rd on that list w/ 40.2 points. Also, Basketball Reference has Isiah Thomas as Iverson's closest comparable. |
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on May 11, 2006 13:50:42 GMT -5
Not knocking Nash...If I were playing a pick-up game, I'd definitely want him on my squad...JJ too...Nash could play anywhere, IMO, and would be successful.
Just hard to swallow that he's one of the top 10 point guards of all time...
What position did Dumars play?
I guess Iverson's MVP year was at the 2...so you're probably right...
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 11, 2006 13:55:55 GMT -5
If AI would've won the MVP this year, he would've been on the list. This is a typical "what have you done for me (analyst) lately"...
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the_way
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Post by the_way on May 11, 2006 13:55:57 GMT -5
Not knocking Nash...If I were playing a pick-up game, I'd definitely want him on my squad...JJ too...Nash could play anywhere, IMO, and would be successful. Just hard to swallow that he's one of the top 10 point guards of all time... What position did Dumars play? I guess Iverson's MVP year was at the 2...so you're probably right... Dumars played the 2, and would play the 1 when Isiah would rest on the bench (or would be hurt) and Vinnie Johnson would come off the bench and play the 2. |
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 11, 2006 13:56:07 GMT -5
The killer to me is that the knock on Magic was that he didn't play defense and Nash is 50 times worse. Nash has never played a minute of defense in his life. He gets torched every time out on the floor.
He better be glad he's 6'3, white, and played ball in the WCC because that's why he gets all the "like Stockton" talk when he is not fit to touch the hem of Stock's short shorts.
Luke Ridnour is going to be better than Nash. at least he gets into a passing lane more than once a month.
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3GenerationHoya
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Post by 3GenerationHoya on May 11, 2006 13:57:44 GMT -5
dumars was the 2, alongside Isiah in the backcourt.
- _way beat me to it. oh well.
I think the really confusing part was that Pippin was among those "receiving votes" while Iverson was not. Sure Pip brought the ball up some during the championship years, but no way I would consider him more worthy of a vote for best point guard ahead of Iverson. crazy.
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miamihoya
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Post by miamihoya on May 11, 2006 14:00:10 GMT -5
ridiculous to even put Nash next to the rest of the guys on that list...all of them are already hall of famers or most likely future ones (stockton, payton, and kidd)...Nash aint there yet...not even close
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Locker
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Post by Locker on May 11, 2006 14:00:50 GMT -5
This Nash thing has gotten out of control. Even statistically in that chart he's a DISASTER compared to the other guys. He's 9th in scoring, 9th in rebounds, and 9th in assists. I'm not going to get into the real debate here, but this just not a sound use of statistics. It completely ignores how efficiently the player obtained his numbers. Nash's career P.E.R. (the most important single offensive stat) exceeds that of Isaiah, Kidd, and Payton. That doesn't end the discussion -- especially because Nash is such a terrible defender -- but it needs to be taken into account (rather than ignored). |
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on May 11, 2006 14:03:54 GMT -5
...when he is not fit to touch the hem of Stock's short shorts. If he were, do you think he would want to? It'll be interesting to see how the PG's that come after Nash measure-up... |
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 11, 2006 14:14:07 GMT -5
This Nash thing has gotten out of control. Even statistically in that chart he's a DISASTER compared to the other guys. He's 9th in scoring, 9th in rebounds, and 9th in assists. I'm not going to get into the real debate here, but this just not a sound use of statistics. It completely ignores how efficiently the player obtained his numbers. Nash's career P.E.R. (the most important single offensive stat) exceeds that of Isaiah, Kidd, and Payton. That doesn't end the discussion -- especially because Nash is such a terrible defender -- but it needs to be taken into account (rather than ignored). Well the derivative of a derivative stat just sold me. That .5 edge Nash has in the "most bestest player index" is so much more reliable than silly things like points and assists. Hey I just looked up PER. Terrelll Brandon and Mark Price are ahead of Nash. Let's consider them. Oh and Zydunas Ilgauskus is ahead of Robert Parish. Let's debate those two at center. Sorry to go off like that, but these ridiculous stathead stats don't end dicsussions as you say. But I don't think they even start discussions. Those begin and end on the floor with real things that happen during a game and if you can't put up points, assists, or steals with the rest of the all-time top ten, you don't deserve to be on that list. |
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 11, 2006 14:21:34 GMT -5
I just assume they're considering Iverson a SG as I do so they didn't include him.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on May 11, 2006 14:29:31 GMT -5
I just assume they're considering Iverson a SG as I do so they didn't include him. C'mon HSB! Critical reading skills! You're better than this man! Here, let me highlight 3Generations point for you: I think the really confusing part was that Pippin was among those "receiving votes" while Iverson was not. Sure Pip brought the ball up some during the championship years, but no way I would consider him more worthy of a vote for best point guard ahead of Iverson. crazy. |
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 11, 2006 14:53:39 GMT -5
This Nash thing has gotten out of control. Even statistically in that chart he's a DISASTER compared to the other guys. He's 9th in scoring, 9th in rebounds, and 9th in assists. I'm not going to get into the real debate here, but this just not a sound use of statistics. It completely ignores how efficiently the player obtained his numbers. Nash's career P.E.R. (the most important single offensive stat) exceeds that of Isaiah, Kidd, and Payton. That doesn't end the discussion -- especially because Nash is such a terrible defender -- but it needs to be taken into account (rather than ignored). Whoa, whoa, whoa. PER is offensive efficiency, and even if you are a believer in it, it isn't an all-inclusive stat like WARP or Win Shares in Baseball. It's a rate stat. You need the corresponding usage rates, to begin with, historical context, and of course, that pesky defense. Nash is awful; Payton and Kidd were two of the all time best. |
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Post by theEDGEfactor on May 11, 2006 14:58:19 GMT -5
guys im a suns fan and a gtown fan...so its kinda hard the thing is nash is the better player as of right now...dont think ne1 can detest that...theres a reason why hes beaten the likes of kobe, shaq, lj, tmac, and dirk for mvp 2 years in a row..
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 11, 2006 15:17:20 GMT -5
Nash is a very good PG, among the best.
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Locker
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Post by Locker on May 11, 2006 15:59:29 GMT -5
I'm not going to get into the real debate here, but this just not a sound use of statistics. It completely ignores how efficiently the player obtained his numbers. Nash's career P.E.R. (the most important single offensive stat) exceeds that of Isaiah, Kidd, and Payton. That doesn't end the discussion -- especially because Nash is such a terrible defender -- but it needs to be taken into account (rather than ignored). Whoa, whoa, whoa. PER is offensive efficiency, and even if you are a believer in it, it isn't an all-inclusive stat like WARP or Win Shares in Baseball. It's a rate stat. You need the corresponding usage rates, to begin with, historical context, and of course, that pesky defense. Nash is awful; Payton and Kidd were two of the all time best. I don't disagree with any of this (except "Nash is awful") -- I was just pointing out that simply adding points to assists is an unsound way to compare the candidates' numbers. I don't get why that is controversial. |
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