Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2005 18:11:17 GMT -5
Here's a point I was pondering that I'd like you all to address if possible.
If South Bend College had gotten their first choice - Urban Meyer - and he had started at the same pace, would he have gotten the same extension?[/i]
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One
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Post by One on Nov 1, 2005 18:34:22 GMT -5
Great question, Buffalo. I will set aside the fact I do not think Urban Meyer would have had the same early success as Weis on the offensive side of the ball (because I believe Brady Quinn would prove as ill-suited to the spread option as Chris Leak has, not because Meyer is not a good coach) and assume ND performed similarly over this same period, and the conclusion I reach is that I just don't know.
But since Meyer is white, I suppose I have to say he would have gotten a similar extension.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Nov 1, 2005 20:22:05 GMT -5
Here's a point I was pondering that I'd like you all to address if possible. If South Bend College had gotten their first choice - Urban Meyer - and he had started at the same pace, would he have gotten the same extension?[/i][/quote] Good Question Buff. If Meyer had gotten to the same exact start, yes. ND had a perfect PR angle, in that Weiss has 3 super bowl rings in the NFL. They used that as bait. Now, lost in this debate is that so far, Weiss looks like what he has been billed when he was in the NFL: An great offensive guru. I think time will tell if he is a great head coach once he gets his own recruits in. Also, Buff, the more telling question, is that ND has set themselves up for a possible PR fiasco. Say, Weiss' team plays like Ty's team did the following 2 years. Do they let Weiss go, like they do Ty. I doubt it. Now with this new contract, I seriously doubt it.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Nov 1, 2005 22:22:20 GMT -5
I don't think Meyer would have gotten the same extension.
A ten-year contract extension for any coach, no matter how high his level of success, halfway through his first year is dumb. Probably more than dumb. Notre Dame has made a sizeable financial commitment to an unsure thing.
Why would Notre Dame do something like this? I don't claim to have inside knowledge of the way things work at Notre Dame, but the common public perception is that the boosters and alumni, not the school, run the football program. A lot of these boosters and alumni are probably old college drinking buddies of Charlie Weis. Weis has obviously shaken the right hands and made the appropriate promises to restore Notre Dame to its full glory. I don't think Urban Meyer, an outsider, would have been able to get in with the people who count as quickly.
When you win games, create a huge (yet probably undeserved) media frenzy around the program, and know the people writing the checks, odds are you'll get rewarded. Still, it's a bit ridiculous to reward the guy this much so soon.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Nov 1, 2005 23:36:36 GMT -5
I don't think Meyer would have gotten the same extension. A ten-year contract extension for any coach, no matter how high his level of success, halfway through his first year is dumb. Probably more than dumb. Notre Dame has made a sizeable financial commitment to an unsure thing. Why would Notre Dame do something like this? I don't claim to have inside knowledge of the way things work at Notre Dame, but the common public perception is that the boosters and alumni, not the school, run the football program. A lot of these boosters and alumni are probably old college drinking buddies of Charlie Weis. Weis has obviously shaken the right hands and made the appropriate promises to restore Notre Dame to its full glory. I don't think Urban Meyer, an outsider, would have been able to get in with the people who count as quickly. When you win games, create a huge (yet probably undeserved) media frenzy around the program, and know the people writing the checks, odds are you'll get rewarded. Still, it's a bit ridiculous to reward the guy this much so soon. And that Austin, is the point. A lot of this is an argument that Ty Willingham should have gotten the same extension. He shouldn't have. Charlie Weis just should not have gotten the extension either. Some of the arguments are outrageous. I particularly enjoy "Did you mention what that black coach did after that 8-0 start?" That's EXACTLY the point! What if Weis does the same thing? The next best one: "That Washington team is coached by your hero Ty." Oh that Husky team that went 1-10 and got absolutely pasted by Notre Dame last year? So did lousy 2005 Ty lose to "Big Bad Charlie Weis" and revamped ND or did lousy 2004 Ty beat an inferior Washington team to sneak into a bowl game? I'd like to see how you can have that one both ways.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Nov 2, 2005 9:29:55 GMT -5
Also, Buff, the more telling question, is that ND has set themselves up for a possible PR fiasco. Say, Weiss' team plays like Ty's team did the following 2 years. Do they let Weiss go, like they do Ty. I doubt it. Now with this new contract, I seriously doubt it. This is actually the most interesting potential scenario, in my opinon. As someone who really nauseatingly dislikes the Irish, of course, it's the one I'd like to see happen. I don't think it will happen, but schadenfreude springs eternal. Still, wow, just think of the hubbub if Notre Dame, say, has a losing record in either of the next couple of seasons, or even limps in to Christmas week bowls at 7-4 or so. I'm all giddy and atwitter with the mere thought of it. Yes, it is a pathetic existence I lead, no doubt about it. But these are the things that keep me going. Some might say that all the hate I carry inside me is going to burn me up. To those, I merely reply... "Keeps me warm."
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Nov 2, 2005 10:00:58 GMT -5
All right, last one, this is from a Michigan blog, we all know how much they love the Irish.
Giga's complaints with the other response to Whitlock's article were fair, I actually had some of the same issues and considered editing those parts out, but I figured I oughta leave as much intact as I could. In the same vein, I've edited out the profanity from below.
Finally, this is my last post on this thread, as far as I'm concerned, if you wanna see racism (especially with regards to sports) you'll see racism. What is a shame is that there couldn't be a discussion about Weis' unprecedented contract outside of a Willingham context (or within the context without the racial overtones).
Enjoy:
Brian (from mgoblog) responds:
And G@#$ d@#& him even further for making me write this missive about effing Notre Dame, but I have to. Jason Whitlock wrote this garbage... Weis' new 10-year contract, reportedly worth between $30 million and $40 million ... that strikes me as racist.
... so I am compelled to respond. Because Jason Whitlock's an [air]hole. Because there is a certain subset of black journalists that have carved out careers exclusively by calling people racist. Because there's absolutely nothing wrong with anything Notre Dame has done in the way it's handled Tyrone Willingham.
Why was Willingham fired when Bob Davie was given five years to fail in? Because of Bob Davie. If you reversed the two Notre Dame careers of the bumbling head coaches, Willingham would have gotten five and Davie three. By the time the Willingham era was spiralling into year three of total ineptitude, Notre Dame was over a decade removed from prominence. They had a short fuse, and--this is key--it had everything to do with what happened on the field and in recruiting and nothing to do with Willingham's race, unless you think that Ron Zook is passing .
Tyrone Willingham was Zooking Notre Dame. Anyone who saw his teams play could see that his 8-0 starting record was built on the shifting sand of fluke turnovers and fortuitous bounces. When the bounces stopped coming, so did the wins, and so did the recruits. The real reason Willingham went down in flames will hopefully be apparent in exactly two years, when the fruits of Davie's labors and Willingham's one good class evaporate and the Irish are left with a motely crew of handicapped midgets and Norwegian whalers on the offensive and defensive lines. The writing was on the wall; each year of Willingham's continued employment would be paid back with two additional years of onfield ineptitude. Believe me, I pay more attention to this than you do to your feed trough, Whitlock. As an opposing fan I gloried in the idea of Years 4 and 5 of Willingham. I am the canary in the coalmine.
Then Weis comes in, immediately starts racking up a metric ton of recruits that will have to play very early, demonstrates that Brady Quinn is not in fact functionally retarded, and nearly beats OMG USC to send the nation into a tizzy. So when NFL.com publishes a very public, very plausible story that a former NFL coordinator who had been angling for an NFL job previous to taking a collegiate one and is apparently experiencing great success at his new home could bolt to the NFL, it is a wise and PR-savvy thing to make a sweeping, meaningless gesture, which there's a 99% chance this is.
Whitlock, you sanctimonious idiot, have you ever considered the fact that "buyouts" exist? I guarantee you that Notre Dame has an option to buy Weis out of his ten billion year contract that is almost identical to the one they had before they redid it. Even if they've unwisely tied themselves to Weis for ten years basd on seven games it's besides the point. Weis' fat new contract is unprecedented in the history of college football. No coach has ever gotten a ten year, 40 million dollar contract after seven games before.
So riddle me this: how was Notre Dame's decision to treat Willingham exactly like any other coach in history in his first year racist?
Exactly.
Whitlock's constant cries of racism obscure the fact that the person doing the most damage to black coaches here is Whitlock himself. What does he think he's doing for black coaches around the country? Don't think for a second that any other football power is going to hire a black coach without thinking long and hard about the repercussions if things go awry. No one wants to get pilloried unfairly as racists by you and your ilk (Scoop Jackson on line 2) when the coach gets fired or doesn't get an extension or just has a bad day. As long as "black coach" is synonymous for "giant target for media [air]holes," teams with success will reasonably avoid them like the plague, leaving the publicity-seeking Mississippi States and New Mexico States of the world to hire them into death jobs and then fire them from their death jobs. [This is similar to the comment I made yesterday, although I don't believe this quite as strongly as he does. For instance I think that should ND's offense continue to perform at this level, it will only be a short time before their black OC gets his shot]
But I guess Whitlock has made a career out of this crap. He's a "controversial" idiot for money. This is what you're doing, Jason: you're selling out black coaches across the country at the behest of The Man so you can get your sweaty paws on some loot. You're the Uncle Tom of college football. [again, not my thoughts, I'm not a huge fan of internet name-calling]
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 15, 2007 19:42:55 GMT -5
I'm also trying to figure out how Charlie Weis going 5-2 with an exciting loss gives him a long-term contract and Ty Willingham's 10-2, best season since the early 90's, got him canned in two years.
You just don't get it Giga. You think starting 0-3 and getting totally blown out, 38-0, by 0-2 Michigan is bad? You just don't realize how much worse it would be had they kept Willingham. Hell, if Ty were still coach they'd be 0-13 by now. Clearly, it was a brilliant move for ND to dump Willingham and sign Weis up for life.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Sept 15, 2007 21:28:47 GMT -5
I'm also trying to figure out how Charlie Weis going 5-2 with an exciting loss gives him a long-term contract and Ty Willingham's 10-2, best season since the early 90's, got him canned in two years.
You just don't get it Giga. You think starting 0-3 and getting totally blown out, 38-0, by 0-2 Michigan is bad? You just don't realize how much worse it would be had they kept Willingham. Hell, if Ty were still coach they'd be 0-13 by now. Clearly, it was a brilliant move for ND to dump Willingham and sign Weis up for life. SirSaxa this made me laugh almost as hard as watching ND's offensive line. Oh this offense is terrible. The Irish had one scoring drive the last two weeks and it was a two-yard drive from the seven that led to a field goal. Hilarious. The bad news (or good news for Notre Dame): the constant press of Weis has helped and will continue to help their recruiting. So no matter how awful Weis does this year, he'll be able to beat Navy and go 9-3 in the next few years and everyone will say "Well he had Ty's kids that year" while ignoring that he had Ty's kids his first two years (you know when he was signed forever) or that Ty is in the middle of rebuilding Washington. Don't worry, ND will find a way to make this a brilliant decision. If they can rationalize their last two BCS bowl selections, they'll be able to handle this one.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Sept 16, 2007 15:18:28 GMT -5
How many more humiliating defeats will it take before the world recognizes that Weis knows how to draw up a play but has absolutely no idea how to coach players? I'm tired of hearing how Willingham left the cupboard bare and that Weis really has no chance with these players. You'd think that such a brilliant coach would be able to at least teach inferior talent how to rush for at least one yard in three games.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2007 7:57:24 GMT -5
The argument Willingham left the cupboard bare is a horrible one, at best.
Hasn't Weiss lost two bowl games (one a BCS bowl) with Willingham's players? This is his third year... he should have impact players he personally recruited in there by now. If not, he's obviously as poor a recruiter as he is a coach.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Sept 17, 2007 8:35:24 GMT -5
Weis has lost two BCS Bowls...Fiesta in 2005 and Sugar in 2006.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 17, 2007 8:48:36 GMT -5
Weis has lost two BCS Bowls...Fiesta in 2005 and Sugar in 2006. "Lost" is putting it kindly, with respect to those bowl games. If ND can't score against Michigan's defense -- hell, if they can't even get on Michigan's side of the 50-yard line -- they might not score against anybody. And that includes Navy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2007 9:08:34 GMT -5
If they keep this up, the Irish may have to settle for a Gator Bowl appearance this season.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Sept 17, 2007 12:06:56 GMT -5
i don't know what i like more...weis with the pained expression on his face when he adjusts his pants up under his armpits or jimmy 'emu' claussen showing he isn't the god nd thought he was.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 17, 2007 12:28:33 GMT -5
i don't know what i like more...weis with the pained expression on his face when he adjusts his pants up under his armpits or jimmy 'emu' claussen showing he isn't the god nd thought he was. What are talking about? Claussen is going to Notre Dame "to win four national championships." And his quarterbacks coach in South Bend? Yup, Ron Powlus. As Federal Wildlife Marshall Willenholly would say, "Oh, Sweet Irony!"
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ron
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Post by ron on Sept 17, 2007 12:35:21 GMT -5
nd apologists should be ashamed for reacting in the same way apologist have historically reacted.
they say willingham's firing and treatment was not race related, but ignore domers who say it was, and the fact the school had never had a black head coach in anything, prior to ty.
they say weiss is hamstrung with ty's players, but alternatively laud the qb that just left, who was recruited by ty. oh, by the way, three years in, aren't at least, at the minimum half the guys on your roster, your players? with that in mind, where are the standouts?
they justify weiss' extension - with a similar record as ty in the first couple of years - but refuse to at least countenance maybe, just maybe, it was premature. and the double standard present. the hyper-subjective "buzz" is also trotted out, again, to justify a subjective determination based on more than on field results.
beware anybody who summarily refuses to see an obvious double standard, and then performs the standard op procedure switch-er-roo....stating those who identify what has transpired are somehow hurting black coaches and their own credibility, by noting the obvious.
time will continue to force these apologists and justifiers out of their bizarro-world, and face the facts. trouble is, more justifications will occur. it's what they do.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Sept 17, 2007 12:42:58 GMT -5
eh, I can't exactly say that Willingham's departure from ND was pure race as opposed to wanting "one of their own," but I do know that if acknowledging that firing Willingham was premature given the Weis situation, that "learning from their mistakes" and not making a premature firing of Weis is a lose, lose.
Personally, I hope ole Charlie sticks around a while, maybe muddling to .500 record over five years, finally forcing ND to admit it isn't special and must join the MAAC.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 17, 2007 13:48:05 GMT -5
Anyone who follows CFB recruiting knew that Clausen was easily the 3rd best prospect on that team--Marshall Jones was #1 and Marc Tyler #2--both went to USC. It could be argued that Marshall Jones younger brother Malcolm was #3 ahead of Clausen. Jimmy is like his brothers-a mediocre QB who will win some games but lose against anyone good. Dayne Crist who Weis has a commitment from is a better QB--but USC will have the next great QB from Southern California in Matt Barkely from same school that Leinart came from--Mater Dei.
As for Weis--he's a blowhard. His bullcrap about "super bowl rings" to recruits was pathetic and first sign he knows nothing about what it takes to win in CFB--let's put it this way for the FAT PIG JACKASS-if Bill Walsh couldn't carry his success over to CFB--what makes anyone think this slob can? Bill Walsh was 100 times more innovative and successful and knew how to run profilic offense-Weis had Tom Brady--and Tom Brady, and Tom Brady. He's a slob who thinks he's part Parcells and part Belichick. He's a slob.
His answer was to have a practice on Sunday--you don't beat your players up when they struggle and you don't force a system on a team that doesn't have personnel to use it--his 3-4 defense with Corwin Brown is a joke--they don't have the size to utilize it and you don't make talent adjust to your system--you build around the talent you have. He, like Bill Callahan at Nebraska has received a lot of hype for who he's signed--but in actuality--he's gotten his butt kicked on recruiting trail for most part. Will he eventually win some games? Yeah--his removal of tough teams from the schedule will lead to it--but he's a blowhard who alienates his team-I know some of the players at ND--Trevor Laws, a starting DL is from same city and has had nothing nice to say about Weis--he likes the assistants but most of the team has tired of Weis' "Bully Tactics" and false bravado. When dealing with young men who can't remember who they dated a week ago--your past means little to them--it's about what you are doing/will do--not what was done. It was cute story--but now he's turning on his team even more--and the players are wondering why he's getting such a pass when Willingham was treated so poorly? Not saying Ty was great fit--but it's what is being talked about within the team--and that is not a good thing.
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ron
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Post by ron on Sept 18, 2007 7:17:03 GMT -5
my question is, why wasn't ty a great fit? that bit of subjectivity can be used to justity non-football or program concerns. lets see, the guy graduates his players, is a moral/stand up guy, went 10-2, and contrary to public sentiment did recruit/mold some pros, and he's a bad fit? wow.
anyway, someone sent this to me today. what does it say?....
SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- Demetrius Jones, the Notre Dame quarterback who lost the starting position after a poor performance in the season opener, expects to play next season at Northern Illinois following his quick decision to transfer.
Jones surprised Notre Dame's coaches by not showing up Friday for the bus trip for the team's game at Michigan.
Jones said he was stung by coach Charlie Weis' comments that freshman Jimmy Clausen had been the team's top quarterback but was not named the opening game starter as he was recovering from surgery to remove a bone spur from his throwing elbow.
"When I heard Jimmy was the No. 1 all the way through spring and that the only thing that was keeping him out of the lineup was his surgery, well that's not what I was led to believe going into the summer," Jones told the South Bend Tribune for a story Monday. "I thought I was getting a chance because coach Weis believed in me. Then I didn't know what to believe anymore.''
Jones, who is from Chicago, said he attended Northern Illinois' 21-19 loss to Eastern Michigan on Saturday in DeKalb, Ill., but had not yet been in contact with the school's coaching staff and did not know when he would begin practicing with his new team.
"My plan is to practice with them this year and be eligible to play next fall," he said. "I'd then have three years of eligibility. That's how I hope it works out."
Northern Illinois spokeswoman Donna Turner said Monday that she had no word that Jones was yet part of the team.
"Everything so far has taken place outside the athletic department," she said.
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