the_way
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Post by the_way on Oct 31, 2005 11:38:23 GMT -5
Against my better judgment, I'll respond to the_way... These coaches you named are terrible. You are right. The point is that these stinking white coaches can then be dismissed with no repercussions (other than any buyouts or whathaveyou) to the school. If, and I can see that this board is chock full of Ty supporters so I'll use him, Ty does a terrible job at Washington and is fired in 3 years again the backlash will be far worse than if Wanny is dropped in 2 at Pitt. If this name calling and smear campaigning becomes the norm and you are an AD wouldn't it affect your decision-making process? Regardless, yes ND people favor ND people, that may have something to do with the love of Weis. Actually, though Holtz wasn't an ND guy, he embraced the traditions, pageanty and dog-and-pony show aspects that go along with the job, and so was also loved. Ty didn't, neither did Davie, therefore when it went bad, it went bad quickly. As an ND fan I'm thrilled with the extension. He wasn't going anywhere regardless (see his press conference upon accepting the job) but this extension will keep one of the hardest workers and best offensive minds in College football in South Bend for years. Formerhoya, the backlash is the way Ty was treated at ND. How he is was fired, and how he was supported. The players were debating whether or not they would actually play their bowl game based on the way Ty was fired. That is the major beef people have. Ty wasn't wanted in the beginning, by alumni, the media, etc. Lets face it. Race played a part in this. Plus, Ty's dimeanor and how he goes about his business is a definite turn off to a lot of people. How Weiss is treated differently than he is when he has had a poorer record is the issue at hand. Ty was treated unfairly in my opinion. Nobody screamed racism when the coach from Michigan State was let go. In terms of the backlash you are talking about, their aren't enough black head coaches in Division I-A to even really discuss it. When you can count the number of black head football coaches in Division 1-A on one hand, that is a GLARING problem.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 31, 2005 12:10:26 GMT -5
There are a few factors at play, I'm sure. Race may be one of them, I don't really know enough to comment on that. I think I can speculate on some other factors, however, based on a few knowns:
1. Neither Ty Willingham nor Charlie Weis was Notre Dame's first choice as coach. 2. ND has not exactly been the most stable of college football powerhouses over the past several years. 3. Right or wrong, ND handled the Ty Willingham situation abysmally. 4. Charlie Weis has done an excellent job coaching this year. The jury is still out as to how well Charlie Weis can recruit, but everyone seems optimistic. 5. Charlie Weis' name is being bandied about in several circles in the NFL.
Given this, I think the extension is A. to promote stability; B. to help recruiting; C. making a commitment to Weis to try to keep him from bolting immediately (which he surely could do); D. damage control from the Ty Willingham debacle; and lastly, E. a recognition of his coaching performance. (maybe E is not last, but it sure isn't first).
Say what you will about how great a coach he has been, but a 10-year extension after 7 games is a little over the top if it's solely to reward his performance, I don't care if he won all seven of them. ND has got to move forward from the embarrassment they suffered over the past year or so, they have to create a stable environment in recruiting, fundraising, and many other fronts. This extension says, "We have our guy, he is one of us, and never mind the NFL, he will be here for a long, long time." (when I say, "one of us", I mean an alum, not a white guy). To an extent possibly, it also says, "We got the man we wanted all along, never mind anything else" but that's secondary.
Regardless, the extension isn't worth the paper it's printed on if ND is not consistently a title contender over the next several years. They probably will be, much to my chagrin I will admit (especially after dropping BC for Rutgers - what's next, drop Michigan for Indiana?).
Anyway, that's just my opinion. But wasn't the original question here about how in the hell ND can be ranked #8? I grant you, I do not like the Irish. But I think even ND fans might be able to concede that's a little high, given the number of undefeated and one-loss teams that are still out there. Espcially considering that, regardless of rankings at the beginning of the season - which are more or less meaningless - ND's schedule really hasn't been all that tough...or at least not as tough as it was made out to be.
Luckily, it will be resolved on the field. If ND runs the table, they'll probably legitimize their position in the polls and squeak into a BCS bowl at the end of the season, depending on how everything else plays out above them. If they lose any of their remaining games (Tennessee or Stanford are the only real danger games, Stanford more likely than Tenn), they're headed for the lower end of the Top 25 and a relatively minor bowl.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Oct 31, 2005 12:19:07 GMT -5
Boz, I think you have some good thoughts, the only issue I have is something that is entirely secordary to the point of this thread, and that is the dropping of BC. BC is dropped from ND's schedule for the same reason that they aren't on Georgetown's basketball schedule. ND has an obligation to play a certain number of Big East teams to keep the Bowl affiliations and when UBICH (University of Boston in Chestnut Hill) went ACC ND had no reason to play them. It'd be like the Hoyas giving University of Foggy Bottom a basketball game, they've been the better team the last few years, but in terms of benefitting the programs it would be much bigger for UBICH, or GW, damn, I'm getting my comparisons mixed up...
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Oct 31, 2005 12:19:13 GMT -5
Anyway, that's just my opinion. But wasn't the original question here about how in the hell ND can be ranked #8? I grant you, I do not like the Irish. But I think even ND fans might be able to concede that's a little high, given the number of undefeated and one-loss teams that are still out there. Espcially considering that, regardless of rankings at the beginning of the season - which are more or less meaningless - ND's schedule really hasn't been all that tough...or at least not as tough as it was made out to be. Luckily, it will be resolved on the field. If ND runs the table, they'll probably legitimize their position in the polls and squeak into a BCS bowl at the end of the season, depending on how everything else plays out above them. If they lose any of their remaining games (Tennessee or Stanford are the only real danger games, Stanford more likely than Tenn), they're headed for the lower end of the Top 25 and a relatively minor bowl. ND has the support of the media, just like Texas and USC does. Its the same thing last year. Its almost as if the SEC is an afterthought right now. What was arguably the best conference in football for years in the SEC, is now treated like a stepchild. The Big 12 is extremely weak, has been for years. The Big 10? get real. Pac-10? Come on. Its a damn shame. Alabama gets no respect. VA Tech gets no respect. Georgia received no respect before they lost. Its a shame. The USC-ND game is promoted as the greatest game ever, go figure. Great game,but come on. Its ridiculous. I can't even watch ESPN anymore. Its gravy-train and bandwagon central. I don't want to hear how great BC or Texas Tech was anymore. Or how much of a test Colorado will be for Texas. Or how Oregon and Arizona St. were really big tests for USC. Get real. If the media likes a team, they will run with it till the cows come home. BC and Virginia are always ranked high, and then show their true colors during the regular season. Its a crock.
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One
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Post by One on Oct 31, 2005 12:26:28 GMT -5
Boz I agree with many of your points. ND handled Ty abysmally. And I also agree this was as much about recruiting and stability as performance. No doubt Lloyd Carr and Pete Carroll were asking kids why they would go to ND when Weiss will be back in the NFL in two years. As for the prospect of black coaches succeeding in college football, we should all look at UCLA and appreciate what a great coach they have out there. That program was teetering on the verge of irrelevance before he turned them around, though I dont see ESPN or ABC or any other networks doing features on him the way they did with Ty in his first season at ND.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Oct 31, 2005 14:22:16 GMT -5
New BCS standings just got released: The computers ranked Notre Dame 22nd, 13 spots below their #9 ranking in both the coaches' poll and the Harris poll.
the_way, I think you're absolutely right that once the media starts the hype ball rolling on any team, it's very difficult to stop. I think one thing you leave out of the equation, which I posted on over on the CFB thread, is that teams get credit for what they did last season and the overall reputation of their program as well. How else could it take so long for 3-4 Tennessee to drop out of the Top 25? There's a ton of weird stuff going on in the current AP poll, including:
-Ohio State being ranked above conference co-leader Wisconsin, despite having more overall losses. Are the Bucks getting credit for losing to Texas or being highly ranked in the preseason?
-7-1 Georgia falling out of the top ten for losing, yet LSU and Miami staying ranked above undefeated UCLA (does being undefeated matter or not?)
-#24 Louisville (1-2 in the worst BCS conference, 5-2 overall) being ranked above "#28" Rutgers (3-1 BE, 6-2 overall) even though neither team has a quality win.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 31, 2005 14:34:55 GMT -5
Boz, I think you have some good thoughts, the only issue I have is something that is entirely secordary to the point of this thread, and that is the dropping of BC. BC is dropped from ND's schedule for the same reason that they aren't on Georgetown's basketball schedule. ND has an obligation to play a certain number of Big East teams to keep the Bowl affiliations and when UBICH (University of Boston in Chestnut Hill) went ACC ND had no reason to play them. It'd be like the Hoyas giving University of Foggy Bottom a basketball game, they've been the better team the last few years, but in terms of benefitting the programs it would be much bigger for UBICH, or GW, damn, I'm getting my comparisons mixed up... Well, OK. Fair enough. I didn't know about the Big East obligation. That makes more sense. But RUTGERS? ? ? ? I think we can all admit that's not exactly an even swap out. As I said, I tried to be objective about the Weis contract, but I am more than happy to admit my anti-Irish bias (not the nationality, mind you, just the school), so I do enjoy taking shots at them. Kill me, I'm human. (unlike Brady Quinn, who is apprently some kind of genetically engineered protohuman of quarterback prowess) See? I can't help myself.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Oct 31, 2005 14:39:13 GMT -5
New BCS standings just got released: The computers ranked Notre Dame 22nd, 13 spots below their #9 ranking in both the coaches' poll and the Harris poll. the_way, I think you're absolutely right that once the media starts the hype ball rolling on any team, it's very difficult to stop. I think one thing you leave out of the equation, which I posted on over on the CFB thread, is that teams get credit for what they did last season and the overall reputation of their program as well. How else could it take so long for 3-4 Tennessee to drop out of the Top 25? There's a ton of weird stuff going on in the current AP poll, including: -Ohio State being ranked above conference co-leader Wisconsin, despite having more overall losses. Are the Bucks getting credit for losing to Texas or being highly ranked in the preseason? -7-1 Georgia falling out of the top ten for losing, yet LSU and Miami staying ranked above undefeated UCLA (does being undefeated matter or not?) -#24 Louisville (1-2 in the worst BCS conference, 5-2 overall) being ranked above "#28" Rutgers (3-1 BE, 6-2 overall) even though neither team has a quality win. I agree with you. By the way, what a comeback for Texas this past weekend, eh? ;D
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Oct 31, 2005 15:48:07 GMT -5
Boz I agree with many of your points. ND handled Ty abysmally. And I also agree this was as much about recruiting and stability as performance. No doubt Lloyd Carr and Pete Carroll were asking kids why they would go to ND when Weiss will be back in the NFL in two years. As for the prospect of black coaches succeeding in college football, we should all look at UCLA and appreciate what a great coach they have out there. That program was teetering on the verge of irrelevance before he turned them around, though I dont see ESPN or ABC or any other networks doing features on him the way they did with Ty in his first season at ND. This isn't on point to the thread at all, but I have to jump in with reference to One's comment on Karl Dorrell. Karl Dorrell did a crappy job in his first two years. I don't think anyone in Los Angeles (including Karl Dorrell) would dispute this. The team was maddeningly inconsistent, losing both years to teams they were favored to beat handily. Every time they appeared to be making a breakthrough, they proceeded to take two steps back. None of Bob Toledo's Bruin teams played as badly as either of Dorrell's first two teams. Dorrell was thought to be very much on thin ice this year if the Bruins didn't show significant improvement. And they have. And boy, are they exciting. If Dorrell isn't the toast of the town, it's because he's sharing it with that other team across the city. My hat is off to him. But to say he turned the program around isn't really accurate, because he appeared to be the one who was taking it down.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Oct 31, 2005 16:13:32 GMT -5
Boz I agree with many of your points. ND handled Ty abysmally. And I also agree this was as much about recruiting and stability as performance. No doubt Lloyd Carr and Pete Carroll were asking kids why they would go to ND when Weiss will be back in the NFL in two years. As for the prospect of black coaches succeeding in college football, we should all look at UCLA and appreciate what a great coach they have out there. That program was teetering on the verge of irrelevance before he turned them around, though I dont see ESPN or ABC or any other networks doing features on him the way they did with Ty in his first season at ND. This isn't on point to the thread at all, but I have to jump in with reference to One's comment on Karl Dorrell. Karl Dorrell did a crappy job in his first two years. I don't think anyone in Los Angeles (including Karl Dorrell) would dispute this. The team was maddeningly inconsistent, losing both years to teams they were favored to beat handily. Every time they appeared to be making a breakthrough, they proceeded to take two steps back. None of Bob Toledo's Bruin teams played as badly as either of Dorrell's first two teams. Dorrell was thought to be very much on thin ice this year if the Bruins didn't show significant improvement. And they have. And boy, are they exciting. If Dorrell isn't the toast of the town, it's because he's sharing it with that other team across the city. My hat is off to him. But to say he turned the program around isn't really accurate, because he appeared to be the one who was taking it down. Having an undefeated season as of today after having two consistent seasons isn't turning around? Then what is?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 31, 2005 20:42:10 GMT -5
Rooters point was that Dorrell was the one who presided over the last two crappy years. So yeah, first he put the program down, now to "turn it around." Not something I'd award a lot of credit for.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Oct 31, 2005 21:20:12 GMT -5
Like I said SoCal, you must just enjoy bashing ND. None of your arguments on this thread have pointed to any particular reason for your accusation, other than a general feeling about the place and its alums. As a fairly progressive ND alum myself, I again admit ND has issues about which you can fairly bash the place. But to not see the difference in coaching quality (with ND in the family, I assume you see lots of games) between this season and the previous 8 (Davie + Willingham) is a general lack of football knowledge or plain willful blindness in order to feed your anti-ND fetish. So after the justifications why any argument to the contrary is indefensible, the argument you propose is "they look better." As great as they looked versus SC, can you honestly say they didn't look just as bad getting manhandled by MSU until rallying late? We're 7 games into his tenure and they've looked better on offense, I'll give you that. But their defense? Are you kidding? We have a 5-2 team with a good offense and a pretty terrible defense and the guy on the sidelines is a savior? I can't say I see it.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Nov 1, 2005 13:02:11 GMT -5
Far be it for me to speak for One, but I believe that "they look better" refers to the important aspects of the game; fundamentals, execution, and heart. That doesn't even take into account the way that players who had 3 years under Ty (and I'm looking at Maurice Stovall here) and were considered busts have suddenly become monsters, nor does it even look at the way the team has made adjustments over the course of games, nor the way that when a mistake is made (as was the case in the MSU game) Weis has taken the responsibility rather than throwing the players under the bus (like Ty's ubiquitous "They just didn't execute" responses).
This long of an extension after this short of a time may be a little exuberant, but it was also necessary to aid in recruiting. If you want the real reason for Weis getting the extension and Ty not getting one look at the rumors for NFL teams seeking these two coaches. The NFL buzz with with TY and his lucky (yes, lucky, after each game I had the same feeling I used to get when I would steal a cookie from the jar without my mom catching me) 8-0 start was nil; not true with Weis. If Weis' team collapses the way that Ty's did (and I include a squeaker over a 1-10 Navy team that was rumored to be considering I-AA due to its ineptitude) ND will be regretting the decision, and firing Weis early. Regardless this move was necessary in a way that it never was with Ty.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2005 14:48:42 GMT -5
My man Jason Whitlock shares his views: sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/051101This "we have to protect him from the NFL" line is a bunch of crap. You can sign a guy for 100 years or 100 days, if an NFL club wants a coach and he wants to go, it gets done. Period. To say they had to give Weis the extension to keep him from going pro is pure smoke-screen. What that smoke-screen is for, I'm not entirely sure, but to me it is a smoke-screen nonetheless. As is this "they were lucky to be 8-0" crap.
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hoyahoyasaxa
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Post by hoyahoyasaxa on Nov 1, 2005 15:46:43 GMT -5
My man Jason Whitlock shares his views: sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/051101This "we have to protect him from the NFL" line is a bunch of crap. You can sign a guy for 100 years or 100 days, if an NFL club wants a coach and he wants to go, it gets done. Period. To say they had to give Weis the extension to keep him from going pro is pure smoke-screen. What that smoke-screen is for, I'm not entirely sure, but to me it is a smoke-screen nonetheless. As is this "they were lucky to be 8-0" crap. Great article.
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Nov 1, 2005 16:03:58 GMT -5
Very well written. And for those of you that think I'm anti-ND, I'm not. I've watched and rooted for ND for as many years as I can remember (not over GU, of course).
It's just sad to see one of GU's sister schools turn regressive. I thought they were making real progress with the hiring of Ty.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Nov 1, 2005 16:15:33 GMT -5
I told myself I wasn't gonna post on this thread again, but when people start looking toward Page 2 for their sports information I break into hives. To that end this is a response to the article (I have edited out the profanity and personal attacks) from an ND board:
Because only in the land of apple pie, baseball and hypocrisy would a major sports organization have the audacity to give a white football coach a record contract for winning five of his first seven games just a few months after prematurely firing a black coach who won his first eight.
Why don't you tell everyone what that black coach did after going 8-0? He lost to a bad BC team in his own building. He had to struggle to beat Navy with a 4th quarter comeback in Baltimore. Then he got bludgeoned by USC and lost his bowl game. Then his next two years were an example of pure, unadulterated stupidity and mediocrity.
Weis got the better of Willingham this season -- but Willingham had the better start at ND.
Wrong again. Only an intellectual midget would make that claim. There is more to a start than just a record. [personally I think this is the most important point in the response] Willingham was 8-0 but he also had one of the luckiest streaks going of all time. He didn't score an offensive TD against Maryland and still won. We need two defensive TDs to beat a mediocre PU team in our own building.
For the record, I didn't have a problem with Notre Dame's firing Willingham. Yes, he deserved five years. But his firing didn't strike me as particularly racist, just shortsighted and unfair. Life is rarely fair, and we're certainly an instant-gratification society. The same factors could and do lead to the premature demise of white coaches (see Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown, Detroit Pistons).
Untrue, please don't revise your own history. When Willingham was fired you spent the next two weeks ranting and raving about it. I know because I saw you doing it on ESPN.
Now, Weis' new 10-year contract, reportedly worth between $30 million and $40 million … that strikes me as racist. Because there's just no way Notre Dame, or any school for that matter, would do the same thing for a black coach.
Prove it, dip stick. Prove that no school would ever give a black head coach a big contract. I want proof. Not some lame belief that you developed. If there was a black head coach that deserved it, that black head coach would get his money.
How do I know this?
Because Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Do not make ND fans pull out the stats from Willingham's 8-0 start. It will embarrass you. ND won mostly on luck and defense. Our offense was awful.
Sit down before reading the next couple of sentences, because what I'm about to tell you will shock you.
Charlie Weis has not proven that he's the second coming of Joe Paterno, or Jimmy Johnson, or Pete Carroll, or even Bob Stoops. Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to.
Nice revisionist history. Before the season, many of your illustrious cronies thought ND would be lucky to win 2-3 games in their first six. To someone who wants to bring race into every discussion about sports, it obviously means something else.
Notre Dame has beaten a mediocre Michigan team, a Dave Wannstedt-coached Pittsburgh team that is .500 only because the Big East is terrible, the third- or fourth-best team in the Mountain West Conference (BYU), a bad Purdue squad, and a Washington club with one victory (vs. Idaho).
That Washington team is led by your hero, Tyrone Willingham. I don't care how untalented UW is. To only have won one game is an embarrassment. And in the coming years, when UW continues to struggle, it may finally dawn on you that Willingham was/is a fraud of a head coach. But I am sure you will come up with some lame reason to blame Willingham's fall on ND. That's what you do.
In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams -- all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43.
You talk as if making a bowl game is a big accomplishment. It's not. There are so many bowls now, that so many undeserving, mediocre teams make bowls. PU was fairly mediocre that year. Maryland wasn't that great. Pitt stunk despite their winning record. AF? And let's also point out that of those 8 teams he played to start that season, ND had more talent than 6 of them.
Willingham won those eight games with Carlyle Holiday, an option quarterback recruited by Bob Davie, running Willingham's West Coast passing offense.
You act as if Willingham didn't have a choice. He could have opted for Lovecchio, who was a better passer than Holiday. He could have opted for Clark, who ended up at TE, but also was a more dropback passer. But Willingham went with Holiday, the QB who was least likely to adapt to his system. I think it was a racist decision.......I think Willingham went with Holiday because he was a black QB.
Oh that is absurd? Yep, about as absurd as your claim that ND is racist for giving Weis the extension and your claim that Willingham had a better start than Weis.
The Great Weis Hope is beating marginal teams with a Willingham-recruited quarterback -- Brady Quinn -- so talented that some NFL draft experts suggest he would be taken ahead of Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart.
Weis really lucked out having Quinn here this year for the first time. I mean it was a shame Willingham didn't have a QB of his talent to use last year.........oh wait......... that's right, Willingham did have Quinn last year. And it was an experienced Quinn as a sophomore who had played his frosh year. And yet he was no better from his frosh to soph years. Hmmmmmm.......
Yes, Weis is doing a nice job working with the offensive talent Willingham recruited. But while Willingham inherited offensive personnel recruited to run the football, Weis inherited players recruited to operate in a pro-style passing offense.
Willingham was working with HIS players last year as well. And he worked them to a second straight poor year. Please stop making this sound like Willingham was saddled with Davie players his entire 3 years here. Willingham was using his own players as well and couldn't [make them play well]. Explain to me how this OL, that was experienced last year, is playing light years better? Coaching.
Forgive me for not being shocked that Weis is getting points out of all that mature, experienced talent Willingham left behind.
That OL was experienced last year as well. And yet they sucked. Quinn wasn't exactly a spring chicken himself, having been experienced playing his frosh year. McKnight, Stovall and Fasano all were experienced as well in 2004. Your point is stupid.
Weis just needs to earn it, like everyone else. Weis and his handlers shouldn't get away with floating the story about his $1.5 million buyout and how that makes Notre Dame vulnerable to an NFL team stealing him. The media shouldn't act like Notre Dame had no choice but to hand Weis a new deal.
Got proof of this? Please provide the evidence that it was Weis and his agent who floated the NFL rumors to get a bigger contract? If you can't, [stop with the baseless claims.]
You think Weis is the only college coach the NFL has ever been interested in?
I remember a time when Willingham was a hot name amongst NFL circles. But reality set in. The NFL people realized Willingham is a fraud of a head coach.
This is a gigantic overreaction by a school administration that should know better. They watched Willingham experience early success and then struggle. Notre Dame has no clue whether Weis can recruit or sustain success.
Weis can't recruit? Now I know you have no clue what you are talking about. He is going to likely sign a class that will blow any of Willingham's out of the water. And he is already in great position for the junior class, including being one of the finalist for the top QB in the nation next year, Jimmy Clausen.
Try again.
Let's call this exactly what it is: greed and stupidity. Just like Terrell Owens -- but with far less proof -- Weis and his advisors reached the conclusion that the Great Weis Hope outperformed his contract. So Weis and Notre Dame concocted an excuse for the South Bend skies to rain money, and the fawning, lazy, hypocritical media co-signed for it.
Actually the only fawning, lazy, hypocritical person here is you....... the guy who can't look beyond the color of a coach's skin and really analyze with any credibility what is really happening.
Instead, you would rather hide behind your standby argument that sports is racist.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Nov 1, 2005 16:26:39 GMT -5
I told myself I wasn't gonna post on this thread again, but when people start looking toward Page 2 for their sports information I break into hives. To that end this is a response to the article (I have edited out the profanity and personal attacks) from an ND board: Because only in the land of apple pie, baseball and hypocrisy would a major sports organization have the audacity to give a white football coach a record contract for winning five of his first seven games just a few months after prematurely firing a black coach who won his first eight.Why don't you tell everyone what that black coach did after going 8-0? He lost to a bad BC team in his own building. He had to struggle to beat Navy with a 4th quarter comeback in Baltimore. Then he got bludgeoned by USC and lost his bowl game. Then his next two years were an example of pure, unadulterated stupidity and mediocrity. Weis got the better of Willingham this season -- but Willingham had the better start at ND. Wrong again. Only an intellectual midget would make that claim. There is more to a start than just a record. [personally I think this is the most important point in the response] Willingham was 8-0 but he also had one of the luckiest streaks going of all time. He didn't score an offensive TD against Maryland and still won. We need two defensive TDs to beat a mediocre PU team in our own building. For the record, I didn't have a problem with Notre Dame's firing Willingham. Yes, he deserved five years. But his firing didn't strike me as particularly racist, just shortsighted and unfair. Life is rarely fair, and we're certainly an instant-gratification society. The same factors could and do lead to the premature demise of white coaches (see Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown, Detroit Pistons).Untrue, please don't revise your own history. When Willingham was fired you spent the next two weeks ranting and raving about it. I know because I saw you doing it on ESPN. Now, Weis' new 10-year contract, reportedly worth between $30 million and $40 million … that strikes me as racist. Because there's just no way Notre Dame, or any school for that matter, would do the same thing for a black coach.Prove it, dip stick. Prove that no school would ever give a black head coach a big contract. I want proof. Not some lame belief that you developed. If there was a black head coach that deserved it, that black head coach would get his money. How do I know this?Because Willingham was far more impressive in the first two months of his initial season than Weis has been in his, and all Tyrone got was a pat on the back.Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Do not make ND fans pull out the stats from Willingham's 8-0 start. It will embarrass you. ND won mostly on luck and defense. Our offense was awful. Sit down before reading the next couple of sentences, because what I'm about to tell you will shock you.
Charlie Weis has not proven that he's the second coming of Joe Paterno, or Jimmy Johnson, or Pete Carroll, or even Bob Stoops. Charlie Weis has not won one football game that he wasn't supposed to.Nice revisionist history. Before the season, many of your illustrious cronies thought ND would be lucky to win 2-3 games in their first six. To someone who wants to bring race into every discussion about sports, it obviously means something else. Notre Dame has beaten a mediocre Michigan team, a Dave Wannstedt-coached Pittsburgh team that is .500 only because the Big East is terrible, the third- or fourth-best team in the Mountain West Conference (BYU), a bad Purdue squad, and a Washington club with one victory (vs. Idaho).That Washington team is led by your hero, Tyrone Willingham. I don't care how untalented UW is. To only have won one game is an embarrassment. And in the coming years, when UW continues to struggle, it may finally dawn on you that Willingham was/is a fraud of a head coach. But I am sure you will come up with some lame reason to blame Willingham's fall on ND. That's what you do. In case you've forgotten, in 2002, Tyrone ran up an 8-0 record against Maryland, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Stanford, Pittsburgh, Air Force and Florida State. Six of those teams -- all but Stanford and Michigan State -- played in bowl games that year. The combined record, including bowl games, for those eight clubs was 60-43.You talk as if making a bowl game is a big accomplishment. It's not. There are so many bowls now, that so many undeserving, mediocre teams make bowls. PU was fairly mediocre that year. Maryland wasn't that great. Pitt stunk despite their winning record. AF? And let's also point out that of those 8 teams he played to start that season, ND had more talent than 6 of them. Willingham won those eight games with Carlyle Holiday, an option quarterback recruited by Bob Davie, running Willingham's West Coast passing offense.You act as if Willingham didn't have a choice. He could have opted for Lovecchio, who was a better passer than Holiday. He could have opted for Clark, who ended up at TE, but also was a more dropback passer. But Willingham went with Holiday, the QB who was least likely to adapt to his system. I think it was a racist decision.......I think Willingham went with Holiday because he was a black QB. Oh that is absurd? Yep, about as absurd as your claim that ND is racist for giving Weis the extension and your claim that Willingham had a better start than Weis. The Great Weis Hope is beating marginal teams with a Willingham-recruited quarterback -- Brady Quinn -- so talented that some NFL draft experts suggest he would be taken ahead of Heisman Trophy winner Matt Leinart.Weis really lucked out having Quinn here this year for the first time. I mean it was a shame Willingham didn't have a QB of his talent to use last year.........oh wait......... that's right, Willingham did have Quinn last year. And it was an experienced Quinn as a sophomore who had played his frosh year. And yet he was no better from his frosh to soph years. Hmmmmmm....... Yes, Weis is doing a nice job working with the offensive talent Willingham recruited. But while Willingham inherited offensive personnel recruited to run the football, Weis inherited players recruited to operate in a pro-style passing offense.Willingham was working with HIS players last year as well. And he worked them to a second straight poor year. Please stop making this sound like Willingham was saddled with Davie players his entire 3 years here. Willingham was using his own players as well and couldn't [make them play well]. Explain to me how this OL, that was experienced last year, is playing light years better? Coaching. Forgive me for not being shocked that Weis is getting points out of all that mature, experienced talent Willingham left behind.That OL was experienced last year as well. And yet they sucked. Quinn wasn't exactly a spring chicken himself, having been experienced playing his frosh year. McKnight, Stovall and Fasano all were experienced as well in 2004. Your point is stupid. Weis just needs to earn it, like everyone else. Weis and his handlers shouldn't get away with floating the story about his $1.5 million buyout and how that makes Notre Dame vulnerable to an NFL team stealing him. The media shouldn't act like Notre Dame had no choice but to hand Weis a new deal.Got proof of this? Please provide the evidence that it was Weis and his agent who floated the NFL rumors to get a bigger contract? If you can't, [stop with the baseless claims.] You think Weis is the only college coach the NFL has ever been interested in?I remember a time when Willingham was a hot name amongst NFL circles. But reality set in. The NFL people realized Willingham is a fraud of a head coach. This is a gigantic overreaction by a school administration that should know better. They watched Willingham experience early success and then struggle. Notre Dame has no clue whether Weis can recruit or sustain success.Weis can't recruit? Now I know you have no clue what you are talking about. He is going to likely sign a class that will blow any of Willingham's out of the water. And he is already in great position for the junior class, including being one of the finalist for the top QB in the nation next year, Jimmy Clausen. Try again. Let's call this exactly what it is: greed and stupidity. Just like Terrell Owens -- but with far less proof -- Weis and his advisors reached the conclusion that the Great Weis Hope outperformed his contract. So Weis and Notre Dame concocted an excuse for the South Bend skies to rain money, and the fawning, lazy, hypocritical media co-signed for it.Actually the only fawning, lazy, hypocritical person here is you....... the guy who can't look beyond the color of a coach's skin and really analyze with any credibility what is really happening. Instead, you would rather hide behind your standby argument that sports is racist. The fact that you had to go to GREAT lengths to erroneously rationalize and justify Weis' inferior start to Ty's start as head coach at ND, just reinforces what has been said from the start, its RACIST what they did not do for Ty and what they DID do for Weiss. Weiss is now the highest paid coach in America for doing what? lose 2 games, and no guarentee of a BCS bowl in just one season? Weiss name was never rumored for an NFL head coaching position, until AFTER he signed the contract extension. How do you like them apples? His name was never mentioned one time before he signed the extension. Now all of a sudden he is a hot commodity for the NFL and ND had to do this or he will get away. Please. Its bogus.
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FormerHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,262
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Post by FormerHoya on Nov 1, 2005 16:42:26 GMT -5
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Nov 1, 2005 17:07:09 GMT -5
Knowing you, I knew you would go to great lengths to prove point you have no ground to stand on. Like I said before my friend, Weiss' name never popped upr for NFL head coaching jobs in the media until AFTER he signed the contract extension. One little measely article about, what is routine investigating about a head coaching position. Don't you know coaches get inquiries daily about head coaching positions in the NFL or college. I guess you don't. Like I said before, Weiss' name was not a hot topic for an NFL coaching position until AFTER he signed the contract extention. You and the rest of ND can spin it all you want. The fact that you do spin it in order to cover the blatant racism that is going on here, is downright laughable.
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