GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
|
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Oct 30, 2005 16:04:05 GMT -5
How in the world is Notre Dame ranked #8 in the nation? They beat #22 Michigan in the Big House. That's a perfectly nice win, but their other wins are:
Pitt: 4-4 Washington: 1-7 Purdue: 2-6 BYU: 4-4
And they have two losses. Yes, the USC loss was exciting but the home loss to MSU (currently 7th in the Big Ten) should be, shall we say, less endearing to the pollsters.
I'm also trying to figure out how Charlie Weis going 5-2 with an exciting loss gives him a long-term contract and Ty Willingham's 10-2, best season since the early 90's, got him canned in two years.
|
|
TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
|
Post by TBird41 on Oct 30, 2005 16:55:32 GMT -5
That extension bugs me too. It smells of racism on the part of ND. I'm not saying they're racist, but it's definately a plausible explanation for why they buy into the Charlie Weis hype now when they didn't buy into Ty's hype his first year.
|
|
CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
|
Post by CAHoya07 on Oct 30, 2005 17:16:30 GMT -5
That extension bugs me too. It smells of racism on the part of ND. I'm not saying they're racist, but it's definately a plausible explanation for why they buy into the Charlie Weis hype now when they didn't buy into Ty's hype his first year. I think they bought into Ty's hype his first year. Didn't they go 10-2, get ranked in the top 10, but get rocked by Oregon State in the Fiesta Bowl? I venture to guess that after the first year ND faithful thought the team was back where it should be, it was only during the subsequent years when Ty's appeal slowly took a turn for the worse.
|
|
SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
|
Post by SoCalHoya on Oct 30, 2005 17:16:33 GMT -5
Sadly, race does play a big part of this. The ND alumni base isn't exactly a haven for minorities. Despite some good members of their admin pushing for Ty, the deck was stacked against him when he began. Even my more progressive ND friends acknowledge this. My ND in-laws, on the other hand, are still wearing blinders.
Good ol' boy Charlie Weis is exactly the type of guy the alumni want to back, for better and for worse.
|
|
JimmyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Hoya fan, est. 1986
Posts: 1,867
|
Post by JimmyHoya on Oct 30, 2005 18:05:29 GMT -5
It's not racism, it's the hype surrounding Weis' program that is getting him the goods.
The difference between Weis and Ty is that for every good win Ty had, his team got SMACKED by another team, many times by USC, UMich, FSU, etc.--all the teams the alumni want most to beat.
Weis beat UMich, nearly beat the "greatest team ever" in the "greatest game ever" and got ND levels of pub never seen before in college football, and that's including the biggest of bowl games.
ND people like attention. Weis brings them tons of attention. The only attention Ty ever brought to them was "oooh look, he's black!". That doesn't get them recruits, sell merchandise, or as JT3 is looking for, strike fear in other teams. Furthermore, his success was debateable. That first season had so many lucky breaks it was absurd. Weis on the other hand, has gotten everyone in the nation giddy about ND and their prospects for the rest of the year again. ND's team is in the spotlight because of Weis, versus Ty being in the spotlight because he's at ND. Ty's work was mediocre (he also had their first losing season(s?) in addition to that 10-2 and Fiesta Bowl debacle)
The "racist" firing of Ty Willingham hardly keeps up with the stupidity that were the PR moves of his own hiring and Honrung's comments about getting the modern day black athlete before that.
Btw, 3 of those 4 teams were ranked at the time, hence they are looked at as "big wins". Their true quality is seen in ND's BCS ranking.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2005 18:13:52 GMT -5
Willingham was 8-0 his first year before losing to BC. He got no extension, despite beating then #21 Maryland in the Kickoff Classic in Jersey, Purdue, then #7 Michigan at home, Michigan State, Stanford, Pitt, then #18 Air Force in Colorado Springs, and - most impressively - #11 Florida State IN Tallahassee.
Weiss is 5-2 with one good win, and got a 10 year extension. If race isn't an issue, I'm more than willing to listen to any other plausible explanations. I just can't think of any...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2005 18:20:19 GMT -5
I'd also like to hear about all the buy-out/get-out clauses that may be in there. According to people who covered the Pats through their run, Weiss wanted more than anything to coach an NFL team, but could never get an interview due to the late runs his teams always made. Some of those people are convinced that if a good offer from the pros comes around, he's gone.
Will also be interesting to see how he adapts to the "looking after the kids" and recruiting aspects of the college game.
|
|
SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
|
Post by SoCalHoya on Oct 30, 2005 18:40:21 GMT -5
Maybe everyone has forgotten HOW MUCH HYPE there was around Ty when they were 8-0. Seriously. NBC almost soiled itself! It was completely gross.
|
|
|
Post by AustinHoya03 on Oct 30, 2005 21:09:05 GMT -5
I think the answer can be found in how some of those teams were ranked/perceived when ND played them.
Pitt: #23 Michigan: #3 Mich. St.: #10 Purdue: #22
The Irish were unranked at the start of the season. They jumped to 20 after beating Pitt, 10 after beating Michigan, fell to 16 after losing to Michigan State, back up to 12 after beating Washington and Purdue, then leapfrogged falling stars like Tennessee and Cal to jump into the Top 10.
|
|
FormerHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,262
|
Post by FormerHoya on Oct 30, 2005 21:42:52 GMT -5
I have trouble typing a coherent response to these posts. The difference between the beginning of Ty's tenure and Weis' is night and day. The reason there was no extension or talk of it was the way the team was winning.
Ty won with timely special teams and opportunistic defense. His teams overwhelmed noone. His in-game adjustments and decisionmaking were (while not on the level of Davie time-management bad) poor.
The difference is that this team looks spectacular, these players have improved so markedly from their short time under Weis that they don't even look like the same guys.
To suggest that because this team and Ty's first team have similar records means that their coaches should be treated the same is asinine and ignores that there are more than numbers in the game of football. If a purely numerical analysis is all that will convince you, please look at the numbers from these two seasons.
If you aren't convinced after that, then I can't help you and either you are blinded by your ND hate, or you will find racism wherever you look.
I am most sad for the quality potential black head coaches that will be hurt by these weak racism charges against ND. Ty is not a good coach who has somehow developed a sterling reputation. If a school faces these kind of charges when they fire an underperforming coach it will make a school less likely to hire an unknown black coach on the chance that he stinks and they are stuck with him.
|
|
|
Post by showcase on Oct 30, 2005 21:46:06 GMT -5
Weis on the other hand, has gotten everyone in the nation giddy about ND and their prospects for the rest of the year again. Mmmmmmm, that must be some tasty, tasty Kool-Aide.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Oct 30, 2005 21:59:02 GMT -5
I am most sad for the quality potential black head coaches that will be hurt by these weak racism charges against ND. Ty is not a good coach who has somehow developed a sterling reputation. If a school faces these kind of charges when they fire an underperforming coach it will make a school less likely to hire an unknown black coach on the chance that he stinks and they are stuck with him. What a dumb and asinine statement. What about the schools that on plenty of occasions hire stinking white coaches, time and time and again. Look at Calahan and Dave Wanstedtt, Greg Robinson at their respective schools. What on God's green earth did they demonstrate that they were effective enough to actually lead a team to CONSISTENT success as head coaches over a period of time. Never. Yet every excuse in the world is made for them. Its utter b.s. Its clear racism of what ND has done with the contract extension. It is also clear racism of how the media, ESPN included, are hyping Notre Dame, especially Weiss with his 5-2 start. When Willingham was like 7-0, there wasn't as much hype or media support for Willingham as their was Weiss. The only support Willingham received was P.C. hype. It was almost a disbelief or a "what a you know" that Notre Dame was winning in Willingham's first year. The media was crediting Bob Davie for having such a recruiting class for Willingham to win with. They aren't saying the same thing with Weiss. Its almost as if Weiss can walk on water like Jesus, for beating and facing weaker teams than the ones Willingham faced in his first year, yet has a worse record than Willingham did up to this point. Yet, Weiss gets a 10 year contract extension?! Its crazy. You can spin it all you want, but its racism. No buts about it.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,774
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 30, 2005 22:29:06 GMT -5
It's not racism, it's the ND mentality that one of their own always is preferable to the outsider. Willingham was considered an outsider (much like Bob Davie was) and both got shown the door when they didn't win. And if Weis starts a run of 5-6 records and getting clocked by USC and Michigan on a regular basis, he won't be there by 2015, anyway.
The extension is largely for recruiting purposes, to prevent opponents from suggesting to recruits that Weis was one phone call away from a Jerry Jones or a Dan Snyder that would have him moving out of town.
|
|
GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
|
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Oct 30, 2005 22:31:10 GMT -5
It's not racism, it's the hype surrounding Weis' program that is getting him the goods. The difference between Weis and Ty is that for every good win Ty had, his team got SMACKED by another team, many times by USC, UMich, FSU, etc.--all the teams the alumni want most to beat. Weis beat UMich, nearly beat the "greatest team ever" in the "greatest game ever" and got ND levels of pub never seen before in college football, and that's including the biggest of bowl games. ND people like attention. Weis brings them tons of attention. The only attention Ty ever brought to them was "oooh look, he's black!". That doesn't get them recruits, sell merchandise, or as JT3 is looking for, strike fear in other teams. Furthermore, his success was debateable. That first season had so many lucky breaks it was absurd. Weis on the other hand, has gotten everyone in the nation giddy about ND and their prospects for the rest of the year again. ND's team is in the spotlight because of Weis, versus Ty being in the spotlight because he's at ND. Ty's work was mediocre (he also had their first losing season(s?) in addition to that 10-2 and Fiesta Bowl debacle) The "racist" firing of Ty Willingham hardly keeps up with the stupidity that were the PR moves of his own hiring and Honrung's comments about getting the modern day black athlete before that. Btw, 3 of those 4 teams were ranked at the time, hence they are looked at as "big wins". Their true quality is seen in ND's BCS ranking. Yes Ty had ND's first losing seasons: Well except for 2 of the previous 3 seasons before he was named head coach. Spin it however you like, Ty Willingham took over a team coming off a losing record and without a ten-win season since 1993 and won a "lucky" 10 games his first year. Strangely Charlie Weis hasn't won any "lucky" games. That's mainly because he's won one game of any importance at all versus a good, but not great Michigan team. And yes, I do wonder how Ty has gotten such a stellar reputation. I mean you can fall into two Pac-10 Coach of the Year awards and one National CoY in ten seasons, right? The lengths to which people will go to rationalize this are amazing. I mean, maybe Weis is great, but a ten-year extension based on a 5-2 record? Absurd.
|
|
the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
|
Post by the_way on Oct 30, 2005 22:56:49 GMT -5
It's not racism, it's the hype surrounding Weis' program that is getting him the goods. The difference between Weis and Ty is that for every good win Ty had, his team got SMACKED by another team, many times by USC, UMich, FSU, etc.--all the teams the alumni want most to beat. Weis beat UMich, nearly beat the "greatest team ever" in the "greatest game ever" and got ND levels of pub never seen before in college football, and that's including the biggest of bowl games. ND people like attention. Weis brings them tons of attention. The only attention Ty ever brought to them was "oooh look, he's black!". That doesn't get them recruits, sell merchandise, or as JT3 is looking for, strike fear in other teams. Furthermore, his success was debateable. That first season had so many lucky breaks it was absurd. Weis on the other hand, has gotten everyone in the nation giddy about ND and their prospects for the rest of the year again. ND's team is in the spotlight because of Weis, versus Ty being in the spotlight because he's at ND. Ty's work was mediocre (he also had their first losing season(s?) in addition to that 10-2 and Fiesta Bowl debacle) The "racist" firing of Ty Willingham hardly keeps up with the stupidity that were the PR moves of his own hiring and Honrung's comments about getting the modern day black athlete before that. Btw, 3 of those 4 teams were ranked at the time, hence they are looked at as "big wins". Their true quality is seen in ND's BCS ranking. Yes Ty had ND's first losing seasons: Well except for 2 of the previous 3 seasons before he was named head coach. Spin it however you like, Ty Willingham took over a team coming off a losing record and without a ten-win season since 1993 and won a "lucky" 10 games his first year. Strangely Charlie Weis hasn't won any "lucky" games. That's mainly because he's won one game of any importance at all versus a good, but not great Michigan team. And yes, I do wonder how Ty has gotten such a stellar reputation. I mean you can fall into two Pac-10 Coach of the Year awards and one National CoY in ten seasons, right? The lengths to which people will go to rationalize this are amazing. I mean, maybe Weis is great, but a ten-year extension based on a 5-2 record? Absurd. Well said!
|
|
TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
|
Post by TBird41 on Oct 30, 2005 23:05:02 GMT -5
It's not racism, it's the ND mentality that one of their own always is preferable to the outsider. Willingham was considered an outsider (much like Bob Davie was) and both got shown the door when they didn't win. And if Weis starts a run of 5-6 records and getting clocked by USC and Michigan on a regular basis, he won't be there by 2015, anyway. The extension is largely for recruiting purposes, to prevent opponents from suggesting to recruits that Weis was one phone call away from a Jerry Jones or a Dan Snyder that would have him moving out of town. These reasons make sense to me.
|
|
FormerHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,262
|
Post by FormerHoya on Oct 31, 2005 9:35:48 GMT -5
Against my better judgment, I'll respond to the_way... These coaches you named are terrible. You are right. The point is that these stinking white coaches can then be dismissed with no repercussions (other than any buyouts or whathaveyou) to the school. If, and I can see that this board is chock full of Ty supporters so I'll use him, Ty does a terrible job at Washington and is fired in 3 years again the backlash will be far worse than if Wanny is dropped in 2 at Pitt. If this name calling and smear campaigning becomes the norm and you are an AD wouldn't it affect your decision-making process?
Regardless, yes ND people favor ND people, that may have something to do with the love of Weis. Actually, though Holtz wasn't an ND guy, he embraced the traditions, pageanty and dog-and-pony show aspects that go along with the job, and so was also loved. Ty didn't, neither did Davie, therefore when it went bad, it went bad quickly.
As an ND fan I'm thrilled with the extension. He wasn't going anywhere regardless (see his press conference upon accepting the job) but this extension will keep one of the hardest workers and best offensive minds in College football in South Bend for years.
|
|
One
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 192
|
Post by One on Oct 31, 2005 10:35:16 GMT -5
If you watched or attended every ND game during Willingham's first year, and also watched or attended every ND game this season, then you see the difference between the two teams and can recognize the higher quality in coaching on display. If you disagree with that statement, then you either know nothing about football or you dont like ND and just want to bash them for the sake of basing them. If you have only followed ND in a cursory fashion over the last few years and only have win-loss records as a basis for your opinions, then you have no standing to post on this thread with respect to Ty's coaching ability vs. Charlie Weiss' coaching ability - again, you probably just dont like ND and will take any opportunity to bash them. Knowing their fan base and alumni (of which I am both), I admit that is an understandable feeling, but its better expressed in another thread on another topic because ND's coaching decisions over the last year have been about improving the quality of their coach, not about the race of their coach. You can bash ND and their alums for many things, but this is not one of them.
|
|
SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
|
Post by SoCalHoya on Oct 31, 2005 10:37:07 GMT -5
I wish I could say it isn't latent racism, but it is. Sad to see ND, one of our fellow Catholic and Big East schools, so behind the times.
|
|
One
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 192
|
Post by One on Oct 31, 2005 11:10:03 GMT -5
Like I said SoCal, you must just enjoy bashing ND. None of your arguments on this thread have pointed to any particular reason for your accusation, other than a general feeling about the place and its alums. As a fairly progressive ND alum myself, I again admit ND has issues about which you can fairly bash the place. But to not see the difference in coaching quality (with ND in the family, I assume you see lots of games) between this season and the previous 8 (Davie + Willingham) is a general lack of football knowledge or plain willful blindness in order to feed your anti-ND fetish.
|
|