the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 26, 2005 11:47:53 GMT -5
Ugh. I'M AGREEING WITH YOU, _WAY! There's no doubt in my mind that even healthy White wouldn't have made an impact in the NFL. I watched a LOT of OU games, and saw him dominate Texas and bomb in bowl games. You're not telling any of us anything we don't already know, _way. All I've EVER said is that its too bad he's saddled by so many injuries because he'll never get the chance to be Gus Frerotte (who's been in the league for years), let alone anyone actually good. You say the only thing he's good for his holding a board - that's my point! That's a career! How many guys have made boat loads of cash doing that?! My whole freaking point if you'd bother to read anything was simply he'll probably never get that chance because his body failed him. Jesus, I've typed that last sentence a million times - has it gotten through yet? And I'm sorry. You need to watch a lot more football. Just because MAC guys play close games, doesn't mean they are playing great teams. Those Marshall guys, Big Ben... they play close games because everyone around them is the same talent level... MID MAJOR TALENT. More mid-major QB's fail in the NFL than succeed because personnel guys are wowed by their stats and numbers and success in whatever conference they play, when the fact is they AREN'T NFL TALENT. Leftwich et. al. succeed because they are mad talented... not because they play in the MAC. Over his career, White will have played against more NFL stars than Leftwich, Pennington, McNair, Big Ben, and Frye (the guy from Akron) combined. The only point I've tried to make is that if you just say "he has no pro-caliber skills, ergo he'll suck in the NFL," plenty of ALL-PRO players wouldn't have ever been drafted. You gotta be given the chance to succeed. Gus Ferotte was a serviceable QB in the NFL and has won ballgames for teams. He has some skills. He was no Heath Shuler.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 12:06:40 GMT -5
No s--t, _way. That's why I used him as an example. White will probably never get the chance...
... you know what? Forget it. I'm not having this conversation with you. My above posts speak for themselves. If my point hasn't gotten through to you yet, I don't know what else to say. It can't be made any clearer. If you've got nothing constructive to add, well... go away.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 26, 2005 12:16:51 GMT -5
No s--t, _way. That's why I used him as an example. White will probably never get the chance... ... you know what? Forget it. I'm not having this conversation with you. My above posts speak for themselves. If my point hasn't gotten through to you yet, I don't know what else to say. It can't be made any clearer. If you've got nothing constructive to add, well... go away. Buff, I'm just responding to your comments, what you said. You are saying White may have been Gus Ferotte if he wasn't injured. I'm telling you White would be Heath Shuler if he was 100% healthy. Lighten up.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 26, 2005 12:19:35 GMT -5
Hahaha... that's the point, isn't it SF? We don't "know" squat. But you watch some of these teams and you gotta wonder, "Are these GM's really THAT much better at their jobs than I could be?!" There are some, yes... but I also think there are some you and I could out perform. I know there are some GMs we could outperform.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 26, 2005 12:21:23 GMT -5
Buff, I'm just responding to your comments, what you said. You are saying White may have been Gus Ferotte if he wasn't injured. I'm telling you White would be Heath Shuler if he was 100% healthy. Lighten up. I take it you have been to an alternative future where White wasn't injured and seen what happened definitively? It's either that or your <gasp> projecting? Well, since that couldn't be the case, when you're in your time machine could you go back in time to the 10th grade and tell my 10th grade self not to break up with my girlfriend at the time. I just saw her on the street and well, quite frankly, she was painfully hot.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 26, 2005 12:26:54 GMT -5
Re: QB in the NFl and why players like Dorsey, White, etc don't get a chance or don't succeed, it's a pretty easy explanation, and doesn't need the above treatises.
#1 reason why these guys can't cut it is arm strength. That's the first hurdle, and most college QBs can't pass it.
Every NFL team has a secondary full of All-American CBs. All of them have a LB corp better and faster than most of the secondaries in college. Furthermore, every NFL team has a coordinator capable of deconstructing a QB.
You have to be able to throw the deep out in the pros. It's a basic throw, but if don't have it, the defense will eat you alive. Troy Aikman made a career out of being able to throw it. Ken Dorsey will never be any good because he can't. Drew Brees' struggles with the throw two years ago is exactly what triggered the Rivers pick.
To a lesser extent, the deep ball in necessary. But nothing like deep out.
After that, there are plenty of other hurdles. Athleticism (look at how Bledsoe has aged), height, but most importantly, the ability to read defenses. But you won't get drafted if you can't throw the deep out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 12:37:11 GMT -5
I take it you have been to an alternative future where White wasn't injured and seen what happened definitively? It's either that or your <gasp> projecting? Well, since that couldn't be the case, when you're in your time machine could you go back in time to the 10th grade and tell my 10th grade self not to break up with my girlfriend at the time. I just saw her on the street and well, quite frankly, she was painfully hot. Thanks, 'Bridge. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for the PROJECTION, _way. You self-contradicting fool. _way, the point is this. I don't care who you think White will be like. I don't care who I think White will be like. It doesn't matter who anyone thinks White will be like. THE POINT IS - quarterbacks, more than any other projection (as I said a zillion posts ago) are the biggest crapshoot. You simply will not know what each guy has until you actually play him. This is what I have been saying all day. You obviously missed it the last thousand times I typed it, so there it is again.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 26, 2005 12:54:07 GMT -5
Thanks, 'Bridge. I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for the PROJECTION, _way. You self-contradicting fool. _way, the point is this. I don't care who you think White will be like. I don't care who I think White will be like. It doesn't matter who anyone thinks White will be like. THE POINT IS - quarterbacks, more than any other projection (as I said a zillion posts ago) are the biggest crapshoot. You simply will not know what each guy has until you actually play him. This is what I have been saying all day. You obviously missed it the last thousand times I typed it, so there it is again. Buff, You always say things after the fact. I think you get confused with what you are thinking and what you actually write. Then when I respond to what you write, you argue you with what thought you said but did not write. Next time, read over what you said before you respond. You won't be as confused as much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 12:57:59 GMT -5
Re: QB in the NFl and why players like Dorsey, White, etc don't get a chance or don't succeed, it's a pretty easy explanation, and doesn't need the above treatises. #1 reason why these guys can't cut it is arm strength. That's the first hurdle, and most college QBs can't pass it. Every NFL team has a secondary full of All-American CBs. All of them have a LB corp better and faster than most of the secondaries in college. Furthermore, every NFL team has a coordinator capable of deconstructing a QB. You have to be able to throw the deep out in the pros. It's a basic throw, but if don't have it, the defense will eat you alive. Troy Aikman made a career out of being able to throw it. Ken Dorsey will never be any good because he can't. Drew Brees' struggles with the throw two years ago is exactly what triggered the Rivers pick. To a lesser extent, the deep ball in necessary. But nothing like deep out. After that, there are plenty of other hurdles. Athleticism (look at how Bledsoe has aged), height, but most importantly, the ability to read defenses. But you won't get drafted if you can't throw the deep out. I think traditionally you're right on, SF. But... ye gads!... I am KIND of agreeing with _way. Most guys, quarterbacks or otherwise, are drafted on "upside." A monster arm is part of that. I hate to keep going back to him, but Tom Brady has changed how a lot of teams look at quarterbacks. The out and deep-out are the things college QB's are traditionally tested on first. But because of Brady's success, more and more guys are being looked at because of other skills. Brady was drafted because he was a winner, his teammates loved him, great work ethic, etc. This year a bunch of QB's with "sub-par" arms were taken for that reason: David Greene, Kyle Orton, LeFors from L-Ville, and Orlovsky from UConn. Success isn't guaranteed, but more and more teams are working to mask any short-comings QB's may have (see: Drew Brees). Like I said, for the most part I think you're close to right-on. But more and more teams are looking below the surface for their QB's.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 13:00:10 GMT -5
Buff, You always say things after the fact. I think you get confused with what you are thinking and what you actually write. Then when I respond to what you write, you argue you with what thought you said but did not write. Next time, read over what you said before you respond. You won't be as confused as much. With each post you make, you lose more and more credibility. That's assuming you had some to begin with. My posts are consistent and speak for themselves. Which is more than you could ever say. I've made ONE POINT about White (and in fact ALL college QB's), and that's they are a crapshoot and you can't really project them out until you see them. I wrote that many posts ago and have repeated it. You're either A) blind or B) can't read if you didn't see that. In fact, I have said numerous times I agree with you that White prolly won't make it - I simply said its too bad his body gave out on him and we'll never see what he could be. That doesn't mean I think he was going to be Elway, it means I just feel bad for the kid, you jackass. Apparently your reading comprehension SUCKS because nobody else is confused about what I've written. Clearly, you're the one who needs to go back and read what I wrote. Not to mention what you wrote about how horrible projections are and how you can't project future performance, yet here you are doing it now! You've really got to get over yourself, and take your holier-than-thou attitude elsewhere.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 26, 2005 13:09:27 GMT -5
What about Scott Mitchell? Now that was a horrible, overpaid QB I think Bledsoe is now morphing into Scott "Water Buffalo" Mitchell. As a Cowboy fan I cringe at the thought of the 40-50 sacks we'll have to endure this season.
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Apr 26, 2005 13:22:22 GMT -5
Did anyone really need to do research to come up with America's most depressed city? Really? You couldn't tell already?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 26, 2005 13:23:14 GMT -5
With each post you make, you lose more and more credibility. That's assuming you had some to begin with. My posts are consistent and speak for themselves. Which is more than you could ever say. I've made ONE POINT about White (and in fact ALL college QB's), and that's they are a crapshoot and you can't really project them out until you see them. I wrote that many posts ago and have repeated it. You're either A) blind or B) can't read if you didn't see that. In fact, I have said numerous times I agree with you that White prolly won't make it - I simply said its too bad his body gave out on him and we'll never see what he could be. That doesn't mean I think he was going to be Elway, it means I just feel bad for the kid, you jackass. Apparently your reading comprehension SUCKS because nobody else is confused about what I've written. Clearly, you're the one who needs to go back and read what I wrote. Not to mention what you wrote about how horrible projections are and how you can't project future performance, yet here you are doing it now! You've really got to get over yourself, and take your holier-than-thou attitude elsewhere. See, that a boy Buff. You are finally listening. See, you posted first and then read what you said and then you edited your post and added more because you forgot to type everything you were thinking. Good job Buff. I'm proud of you. ;D
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 26, 2005 13:23:22 GMT -5
I think Bledsoe is now morphing into Scott "Water Buffalo" Mitchell. As a Cowboy fan I cringe at the thought of the 40-50 sacks we'll have to endure this season. Why so pessimistic? Don't sell Drew short, he's definitely going to shatter David Carr's 76 times sacked record from 2002. I figure he'll have at least that many by the 12th week of the season...and that's before he really turns it on. He'll manage an unprecedented 10 times sacked a game to close out the season.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 26, 2005 13:23:38 GMT -5
I think traditionally you're right on, SF. But... ye gads!... I am KIND of agreeing with _way. Most guys, quarterbacks or otherwise, are drafted on "upside." A monster arm is part of that. I hate to keep going back to him, but Tom Brady has changed how a lot of teams look at quarterbacks. The out and deep-out are the things college QB's are traditionally tested on first. But because of Brady's success, more and more guys are being looked at because of other skills. Brady was drafted because he was a winner, his teammates loved him, great work ethic, etc. This year a bunch of QB's with "sub-par" arms were taken for that reason: David Greene, Kyle Orton, LeFors from L-Ville, and Orlovsky from UConn. Success isn't guaranteed, but more and more teams are working to mask any short-comings QB's may have (see: Drew Brees). Like I said, for the most part I think you're close to right-on. But more and more teams are looking below the surface for their QB's. I don't Orton has a subpar arm. His njuries made him drop. That aside, certainly there are exceptions. But part of the reason for the infatuation with strong armed QBs is that you can't improve arm strength enough. I don't care how much gumption Gino Toretta had, he was never going to be a great QB. Drew Brees has a weaker arm, but not so weak that he can't make the throws. There's that sort of minimum you need to hit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 13:28:20 GMT -5
See, that a boy Buff. You are finally listening. See, you posted first and then read what you said and then you edited your post and added more because you forgot to type everything you were thinking. Good job Buff. I'm proud of you. ;D Actually, I misspelled a word or two if you can believe that, you condescending SOB. Some of us don't type every word correctly the first time, then go back and change it. Or add an adjective or two about someone we're directing our post at. I'm still waiting for you to go back and read all my posts. When you realize I've been quite clear about what I've been saying the whole time and that you're simply arguing for argument's sake at this point, c'mon back to reality with the rest of us.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 26, 2005 13:37:40 GMT -5
Actually, I misspelled a word or two if you can believe that, you condescending SOB. Some of us don't type every word correctly the first time, then go back and change it. Or add an adjective or two about someone we're directing our post at. I'm still waiting for you to go back and read all my posts. When you realize I've been quite clear about what I've been saying the whole time and that you're simply arguing for argument's sake at this point, c'mon back to reality with the rest of us. Don't you sit there and lie Buff. You added more than a word or two. You added a few sentences. But, hey any growth is good growth for you. You are still a work in progress. Keep up the good work, Buff. I know you can do it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 13:44:02 GMT -5
I'll cut and paste what I added:
"YOU NEED TO GET OVER YOURSELF"
and the
"YOU JACKASS" line, plus a misspelling or two (or ten, knowing me sans SpellCheck).
I stand by them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 13:45:05 GMT -5
Still waiting, _way. You read them all yet? Shocked you were wrong and can't admit it? Talk about work in progress...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 13:56:30 GMT -5
Ahhh, what a day on the board, but I love going home early.
God bless ya, _way. You make the day so much more enjoyable and give me a reason to post in the off-season. Cheers.
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