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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2005 18:02:44 GMT -5
I think the trend of drafting QB's to groom for a year or two is just fine. You're telling me it was a mistake to draft McNair, Culpepper or any of these other guys who sit a year then kick ass? The fact is, ALL QUARTERBACKS are a toss-up.
Yes, I am excited about Losman. The Bills lost the worst starting quarterback in the league in Drew Bledsoe, and we were 9-7 with him. Losman CANNOT be worse. Period. With the top special teams unit, the second ranked defense, and losing one starter on the O-Line, Losman is set up to make a great run his first year. I'm not saying he's going to be Tom Brady or anyone like that, but he's got me - and most of Buffalo - excited. We've seen first hand what a mobile QB can do... oh yeah, he's one of Brees' backups. Mr. Douglas Flutie.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 25, 2005 18:28:14 GMT -5
I think the trend of drafting QB's to groom for a year or two is just fine. You're telling me it was a mistake to draft McNair, Culpepper or any of these other guys who sit a year then kick ass? The fact is, ALL QUARTERBACKS are a toss-up. Yes, I am excited about Losman. The Bills lost the worst starting quarterback in the league in Drew Bledsoe, and we were 9-7 with him. Losman CANNOT be worse. Period. With the top special teams unit, the second ranked defense, and losing one starter on the O-Line, Losman is set up to make a great run his first year. I'm not saying he's going to be Tom Brady or anyone like that, but he's got me - and most of Buffalo - excited. We've seen first hand what a mobile QB can do... oh yeah, he's one of Brees' backups. Mr. Douglas Flutie. Flutie was cut, by the way, just so's ya know. On Losman, I have no opinion on the player, I just think that you can get equivalent value later in the draft for what many use on a first round pick. For QBs, he better be a certain star...then again, I thought Eli and Alex Smith were dumb picks. What do I know?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2005 19:08:28 GMT -5
Hahaha... that's the point, isn't it SF? We don't "know" squat. But you watch some of these teams and you gotta wonder, "Are these GM's really THAT much better at their jobs than I could be?!"
There are some, yes... but I also think there are some you and I could out perform.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 25, 2005 20:50:08 GMT -5
Wow, Buffalo, some of those posts were treatises worthy of MCI and Megafan. Very impressive! ;D
Now I don't pretend to follow the draft closely, but can someone explain to me why no team was even willing to take a flyer on Jason White late in the draft? We're talking a guy with a Heisman win and top 5 finish in the last two years. Is he a poorer pro prospect than Harvard's qb, for crying out loud?
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david
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Post by david on Apr 25, 2005 21:13:26 GMT -5
I think the concern with White was his two torn ACLs that took away a lot of the mobility he had at the beginning of his college career. The national championship meltdown also probably played a role.
Its still surprising, however, that the 3rd stringer (might have been bakcup but i dont think so) on USC and the Harvard QB could be picked above him. I bet he will make a team as a FA
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2005 21:38:51 GMT -5
I think the concern with White was his two torn ACLs that took away a lot of the mobility he had at the beginning of his college career. The national championship meltdown also probably played a role. Its still surprising, however, that the 3rd stringer (might have been bakcup but i dont think so) on USC and the Harvard QB could be picked above him. I bet he will make a team as a FA White should make a team as an undrafted FA... er, at least a tryout. A guy I know works in a scouting capacity for the Bills, and says most if not all teams are scared off by injuries to his arm over the years and his dwindling arm strength. Then again, Brady had a weak arm and no mobility coming out of college, right?
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 25, 2005 21:55:24 GMT -5
White was a subpar QB around great talent, and OU plays in a weak conference. OU has great wins over weak opponents. White looked terrible against LSU and Kansas St. last year and he looked terrible against USC. White has no chance of being an NFL player. The Big 12 in football is a weak conference. Big 12 in football is not the big 12 in basketball. Thats why you saw OU get spanked by USC the way they did. USC wasn't a cream puff from the Big 12.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 7:36:35 GMT -5
Ugh... I thought we had a _way free thread going!!
Nobody disagrees with your White assessment, _way. Like I said, he's going to get a tryout at a few places, and as i indicated many teams are scared off by his load of injuries, but QB's are more of a toss-up draft-wise than high school pitchers are in baseball. And your Big 12 argument ain't that hot... look at all the mid-major QB's playing damn well in the NFL. You can't tell me they played against competition better than the Big 12. I agree White probably won't do much - if anything - in the NFL. But who's to say he doesn't go Arena or CFL for a few years and comes back as a solid backup somewhere? Again... all quarterbacks are crapshoots.
I personally feel bad for the kid - his body failed him and likely cost him an NFL career if only for half a dozen years or so as a backup.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 26, 2005 8:19:26 GMT -5
Ugh... I thought we had a _way free thread going!! Nobody disagrees with your White assessment, _way. Like I said, he's going to get a tryout at a few places, and as i indicated many teams are scared off by his load of injuries, but QB's are more of a toss-up draft-wise than high school pitchers are in baseball. And your Big 12 argument ain't that hot... look at all the mid-major QB's playing damn well in the NFL. You can't tell me they played against competition better than the Big 12. I agree White probably won't do much - if anything - in the NFL. But who's to say he doesn't go Arena or CFL for a few years and comes back as a solid backup somewhere? Again... all quarterbacks are crapshoots. I personally feel bad for the kid - his body failed him and likely cost him an NFL career if only for half a dozen years or so as a backup. Mid-Major teams have battle tested games. So going to the NFL if you have NFL talent around you, the adjustment won't be that much. Byron Leftwitch, Ben Rothlesberger, Steve McNair, and Chad Pennington are perfect examples. Plus, those guys have qualities you look for in an NFL quarterback even though they didn't play for big schools. Oklahoma has one big game all year in Texas. Thats it. As oppose to SEC conference or even now the ACC football conference. Jason White looked good against inferior teams and looked bad when the competition was stiff and the games were close. If he was healthy, he still has no NFL skills. He is in the class of Danny Weurffel, Gino Toretta, Andre Ware, David Klinger, etc. Good to great college careers,but can't cut it in the NFL. Danny Weurffel has the highest quarterback rating ever as a college quarterback and he did it in the SEC and beating Florida St. on top of that. Yet he wasn't NFL material.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 8:46:46 GMT -5
Mid-major teams play mid-major teams. I've watched UB play in the MAC for a couple years now. And even though teams in the Big 12 like Kansas absolutely STINK, they are still better than every MAC team MOST years (not all). Throughout his career, White has played against better competition than did Leftwich, McNair, Pennington. Period. They were highly skilled players who have made an easy transition to the NFL, and would have had they played college ball anywhere. Nebraska, Texas, Colorado... they're always better than MAC teams. Nebraska's worst year they still throttle the overwhelming majority of mid-majors.
You talk about NFL talent, White has PLAYED with and against NFL talent throughout his college career. You can't argue with that. He's played some sick teams and players - look it up. I agree he has marginal at best skills, but with the exception of Toretta, all those guys you mentioned stuck around in the NFL for a few years. That's all I'm suggesting White could have done. I'm sure you'll say you called it way ahead of time, but nobody had any idea about Ware, Klingler, etc. being THAT bad until they actually played. The only argument I've made is that we don't know about QB's until you give them the opportunity to play in the league. Look at freakin' Tom Brady. He wasn't even All-Big Ten. He wasn't even the guy his own coach wanted (Drew Henson ring a bell?). Too small, weak arm, no mobility...
My point with White has ONLY been, that if he were 100% healthy, we have no idea what he could have done. Maybe he's awesome, maybe he sucks, maybe he's a career backup. Injuries are probably going to prevent him from ever finding out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 9:00:04 GMT -5
Flutie was cut, by the way, just so's ya know. On Losman, I have no opinion on the player, I just think that you can get equivalent value later in the draft for what many use on a first round pick. For QBs, he better be a certain star...then again, I thought Eli and Alex Smith were dumb picks. What do I know? But you could make that argument for all first round picks for most players. At some point, you HAVE to pick in the first round. At some level certain guys ARE better than others. Don't get me wrong, SF - I'm all about trading down and stockpiling picks whenever possible. But there are times you have to take what GM's consider "sure things" in the first round. There are probably TE's picked after Winslow last year who will have great careers but his value and potential is so far greater than theirs, you can't pass him up. Its the eternal issue of "upside" that each and every GM in each league faces every offseason. You can't really definitively know about a player until his first contract ends and you can go after him in free agency.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 26, 2005 9:03:38 GMT -5
Mid-major teams play mid-major teams. I've watched UB play in the MAC for a couple years now. And even though teams in the Big 12 like Kansas absolutely STINK, they are still better than every MAC team MOST years (not all). Throughout his career, White has played against better competition than did Leftwich, McNair, Pennington. Period. They were highly skilled players who have made an easy transition to the NFL, and would have had they played college ball anywhere. Nebraska, Texas, Colorado... they're always better than MAC teams. Nebraska's worst year they still throttle the overwhelming majority of mid-majors. You talk about NFL talent, White has PLAYED with and against NFL talent throughout his college career. You can't argue with that. He's played some sick teams and players - look it up. I agree he has marginal at best skills, but with the exception of Toretta, all those guys you mentioned stuck around in the NFL for a few years. That's all I'm suggesting White could have done. I'm sure you'll say you called it way ahead of time, but nobody had any idea about Ware, Klingler, etc. being THAT bad until they actually played. The only argument I've made is that we don't know about QB's until you give them the opportunity to play in the league. Look at freakin' Tom Brady. He wasn't even All-Big Ten. He wasn't even the guy his own coach wanted (Drew Henson ring a bell?). Too small, weak arm, no mobility... My point with White has ONLY been, that if he were 100% healthy, we have no idea what he could have done. Maybe he's awesome, maybe he sucks, maybe he's a career backup. Injuries are probably going to prevent him from ever finding out. I'm telling you, White stinks. Klinger and Ware played run and shoot offenses. I'm talking about great teams and being battled tested. Sure when you have great athletes at all the skilled positions and the team you are playing is weaker than you, you are going to have the numbers Jason White had. But in Big games, the guy looked below-average at best. In terms of the mid-majors, playing against each other, the competition was better than what OU faces in the big 12. Leftwitch, Pennington,etc. played in tight ball games, stiff competition, plus the they have pro caliber skills. Even if he was 100% healthy, White has no pro caliber skills, and showed his true colors in big ball games. That says it all. The only thing White would be good for in the NFL is to have a cap on backwards,holding a clipboard with a clean uniform on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 9:15:00 GMT -5
I'm telling you, White stinks. Klinger and Ware played run and shoot offenses. I'm talking about great teams and being battled tested. Sure when you have great athletes at all the skilled positions and the team you are playing is weaker than you, you are going to have the numbers Jason White had. But in Big games, the guy looked below-average at best. In terms of the mid-majors, playing against each other, the competition was better than what OU faces in the big 12. Leftwitch, Pennington,etc. played in tight ball games, stiff competition, plus the they have pro caliber skills. Even if he was 100% healthy, White has no pro caliber skills, and showed his true colors in big ball games. That says it all. The only thing White would be good for in the NFL is to have cap on backwards,holding a board with a clean uniform on. Ugh. I'M AGREEING WITH YOU, _WAY! There's no doubt in my mind that even healthy White wouldn't have made an impact in the NFL. I watched a LOT of OU games, and saw him dominate Texas and bomb in bowl games. You're not telling any of us anything we don't already know, _way. All I've EVER said is that its too bad he's saddled by so many injuries because he'll never get the chance to be Gus Frerotte (who's been in the league for years), let alone anyone actually good. You say the only thing he's good for his holding a clipboard - that's my point! That's a career! How many guys have made boat loads of cash doing that?! My whole freaking point if you'd bother to read anything was simply he'll probably never get that chance because his body failed him. Jesus, I've typed that last sentence a million times - has it gotten through yet? And I'm sorry. You need to watch a lot more football. Just because MAC guys play close games, doesn't mean they are playing great teams. Those Marshall guys, Big Ben... they play close games because everyone around them is the same talent level... MID MAJOR TALENT. More mid-major QB's fail in the NFL than succeed because personnel guys are wowed by their stats and numbers and success in whatever conference they play, when the fact is they AREN'T NFL TALENT. Leftwich et. al. succeed because they are mad talented... not because they play in the MAC. Over his career, White will have played against more NFL stars than Leftwich, Pennington, McNair, Big Ben, and Frye (the guy from Akron) combined. The only point I've tried to make is that if you just say "he has no pro-caliber skills, ergo he'll suck in the NFL," plenty of ALL-PRO players wouldn't have ever been drafted. You gotta be given the chance to succeed.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 26, 2005 9:49:04 GMT -5
I think the trend of drafting QB's to groom for a year or two is just fine. You're telling me it was a mistake to draft McNair, Culpepper or any of these other guys who sit a year then kick ass? The fact is, ALL QUARTERBACKS are a toss-up. Yes, I am excited about Losman. The Bills lost the worst starting quarterback in the league in Drew Bledsoe, and we were 9-7 with him. Losman CANNOT be worse. Period. With the top special teams unit, the second ranked defense, and losing one starter on the O-Line, Losman is set up to make a great run his first year. I'm not saying he's going to be Tom Brady or anyone like that, but he's got me - and most of Buffalo - excited. We've seen first hand what a mobile QB can do... oh yeah, he's one of Brees' backups. Mr. Douglas Flutie. Did you see AJ Feely last year? Now that was a bad starting QB. Bledsoe looked great for quarters at a time, then inexplicably would lose the game on one series.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 26, 2005 9:55:48 GMT -5
Well not just lose...lose in a dramatic and totally devastating manner that crippled the team's morale and caused suicide rates to triple in the Buffalo area.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 9:57:52 GMT -5
'Bridge, if the Bills had Feeley last year they'd have made the playoffs. No doubt in my mind.
Don't let the national media (who doesn't watch any games) or Bill Parcels fool you. Bledsoe is no great quarterback in ANY aspect of game play. His arm? Average AT BEST. Accuracy? None. You have no idea how many times he would throw a 10-yard out five yards short of the reciever, how many times a guy running a seven-yard cross behind the linebackers would have to reach back behind him to even get his fingertips on the ball, and how many times cornerbacks BAITED him (a how many year vet?) into horrible, horrible picks. He can't even complete a freakin' screen pass. He had one really good game last year (at Miami, which I think may have been Feeley's best game too). He did EVERYTHING HE COULD to lose games at Seattle, at Cincy and home against Cleveland. And were it not for the NFL's #2 defense and #1 special teams (not to mention Willis McGahee), we would have.
I love Drew. Most Bills fans do. He's a fantastic guy, never defelcts blame, real stand up guy you gotta admire. Kind of guy you'd want your sister to bring home. But we all recognize his limitations and see that they bring the team down a LOT. The Pats are a shining example of that, and (hopefully) the Bills will be this year. Consider: the Bills were first or second (I can't remember) in takeaways last year. The defense gave Drew 31 or so extra positions... and he still lead the 25th ranked offense. Also, don't go by that crap the national media regurgitates about the line not blocking. There were so many times everyone in the stadium saw a safety blitz coming, but Drew would still stick with the play and take the sack from the unblocked defender (i.e. 5 trying to block 6, etc.). He just doesn't recognize defenses well anymore, his arm is sub-par for a guy who's bread and butter is supposed to be throwing downfield... the game has just passed him by.
But I DO wish him the best of luck in Big D.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 10:01:40 GMT -5
Well not just lose...lose in a dramatic and totally devastating manner that crippled the team's morale and caused suicide rates to triple in the Buffalo area. HAHAHAHAHA... NOW you understand! I love it. On an unrelated note - and despite even what I thought - check this out: articles.health.msn.com/id/100103843Its not scientific or anything, but it is interesting. Couple that with Buffalo being one of the top cities for the arts in America (http://www.americanstyle.com/Travel/Travelindex.cfm), and you got one hell of place to live! Now if only I could get outta Boston and back there...
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 26, 2005 10:54:08 GMT -5
'Bridge, if the Bills had Feeley last year they'd have made the playoffs. No doubt in my mind. Don't let the national media (who doesn't watch any games) or Bill Parcels fool you. Bledsoe is no great quarterback in ANY aspect of game play. His arm? Average AT BEST. Accuracy? None. You have no idea how many times he would throw a 10-yard out five yards short of the reciever, how many times a guy running a seven-yard cross behind the linebackers would have to reach back behind him to even get his fingertips on the ball, and how many times cornerbacks BAITED him (a how many year vet?) into horrible, horrible picks. He can't even complete a freakin' screen pass. He had one really good game last year (at Miami, which I think may have been Feeley's best game too). He did EVERYTHING HE COULD to lose games at Seattle, at Cincy and home against Cleveland. And were it not for the NFL's #2 defense and #1 special teams (not to mention Willis McGahee), we would have. I love Drew. Most Bills fans do. He's a fantastic guy, never defelcts blame, real stand up guy you gotta admire. Kind of guy you'd want your sister to bring home. But we all recognize his limitations and see that they bring the team down a LOT. The Pats are a shining example of that, and (hopefully) the Bills will be this year. Consider: the Bills were first or second (I can't remember) in takeaways last year. The defense gave Drew 31 or so extra positions... and he still lead the 25th ranked offense. Also, don't go by that crap the national media regurgitates about the line not blocking. There were so many times everyone in the stadium saw a safety blitz coming, but Drew would still stick with the play and take the sack from the unblocked defender (i.e. 5 trying to block 6, etc.). He just doesn't recognize defenses well anymore, his arm is sub-par for a guy who's bread and butter is supposed to be throwing downfield... the game has just passed him by. But I DO wish him the best of luck in Big D. Oh I remember DB better than you could ever imagine. His years with the Pats were like some sort of surreal flirtation with disaster. In fact, some even speculate if it wasn't the hand of God, pitying the joke that was the Pats and their fans, that reached down and smote him, collapsing his lung and ushering in the era of New England championships. Soooooooooo many times did you watch him wait just a second too long, before getting absolutely drilled, fumbling the ball, flailing, sending it bouncing towards the Pats' own end zone. Uggg. Watching him absolutely self-destruct versus the Pats this last year...well, I actually felt incredibly bad for him. I mean, I almost couldn't watch. There he was, on a potentially game winning or game tieing drive. And he singlehandedly loses the game on four plays. Unbelievable. Not only did he get sacked three times and drop a snap, but he moved the chains back from the Pats 25 yard line to like the 47, effectively killing any chance at a game tieing field goal. Unfreakingbelievable.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2005 11:01:22 GMT -5
Ahhhhh... feels so good to hear a non-Bills fan sympathize.
But I will tell you this: he may have been teh worst starting QB in the league last year or not, but Bills DID have the worst starting QB in NFL history (or at least one that got paid mad bank):
Rob's Johnson.
Worst. QB. Ever.
Nothing redeemable about him at all. That "great arm" the national media said he had?? Please. It was decent for the NFL and nothing more. I've seen many more throw downfield better. Now HE was bad. Especially when Flutie was something like 21-7 as the starter.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 26, 2005 11:14:31 GMT -5
Ahhhhh... feels so good to hear a non-Bills fan sympathize. But I will tell you this: he may have been teh worst starting QB in the league last year or not, but Bills DID have the worst starting QB in NFL history (or at least one that got paid mad bank): Rob's Johnson. Worst. QB. Ever. Nothing redeemable about him at all. That "great arm" the national media said he had?? Please. It was decent for the NFL and nothing more. I've seen many more throw downfield better. Now HE was bad. Especially when Flutie was something like 21-7 as the starter. What about Scott Mitchell? Now that was a horrible, overpaid QB
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