Stockpiling at the guard position for Next year?

[the_way]

I'm excited about the recruiting just like everyone else. It seems like next year we are going to have plenty of guards at the same position for next year. I'm wondering how this is going to work out, unless there is something going on that we don't know. It seems like Wallace is a fixture at the point, but Jesse Sapp plays that position as well as Josh Thornton right? Will they just come off the bench for Ashanti and Wallace. What about Ray Reed's and Tyler Crawford's development. It will be interesting to see how this works out. With Egerson and Spann at the 3-spot/wing positions, I think a big man to go along with Roy and Green for the future would help, unless Cornilio and Sead develops. What do you guys think?

[HoyaSox04]

The counter I have to that is that I feel like, in this offense, the guards are more both combo guards, especially this year. While Jonathan's presence has taken a lot of the pressure off Ashanti to play the point exclusively and always be a pass-first thinker, I dont think that you can exclusively label either one as the pure point guard and the other as the shooting guard. You can see evidence in both the alternating of who brings the ball up and sets up the offense, which most of the time is Wallace, but also Ashanti and sometimes DJ or Brandon. Not to mention the offensive outputs of both Wallace and Ashanti, especially with Wallace displaying both a perimeter and penetration game.

Therefore, I think it will be easier for JT3 to be able to rotate the guards in and out, as long as they all know the offense to the same degree. So next year, with the 2 experienced guards in Wallace and Cook, and another year of work for both Ray and Tyler, he will have 4 people who will know the offense really well and be able to mix and match parts, so to speak, depending on the situation and the matchups. I dont think the offense itself lends to having a set point and #2 guard.

Also, I have faith in Cornelio. I think he could become a force off the bench for us. And dont forget DJ - he still has eligibility for next year, which would make us set at the 3 as well.

[SFHoya99]

The crunch really is at guard, particularly for the smaller ones. I don't know if the thing we can't talk about will happen this year, or after next year, but someone will not get playing time, and it will be up to them to go the Willie Taylor route or the RaMell Ross route.

I expect Wallace and Cook to start next year, because of seniority and familiarity, but I think that there's a good likelihood that calls for the freshman to start will happen, starting right after the first BE loss.

By all accounts, Josh is a bigger and more talented Wallace, and Sapp is a better penetrator than anyone we have. Both are supposed to be tough defenders, and both supposedly are 6'3".

On Wallace's and Cook's side, they are probably more consistent outside shooters, are familiar with the system, being more experienced, probably make much fewer mistakes. Take your pick.

I think other players will either have to make a leap in their play (offensive or defensive), or help out at other positions to get a lot of PT.

[GIGAFAN99]

Also, we will have a set that is Bowman, Spann, Green (6'9, 6'8, 6'8) to complement our starting 6'9, 6'8, 7'3 line. Spann is a great rebounder and should be able to give us minutes at the 4 we need this year. If Guibunda does stays and develops, I don't know if we need another big man. If he leaves because of minutes, 6'9 240lbs Brian Morris from the Great Northwest(Oregon) visits in the spring. He's a good possibility as he's rumored to have Xavier ahead right now after his fall visits and if you're a big man going to go Jesuit, go Georgetown. We get his last visit I think, which is always a good sign. We'd probably try to lock him in on that trip.

Wouldn't be a bad time for Sweets to just happen to be visiting either.

[SFHoya99]

HoyaSox430 said:

The counter I have to that is that I feel like, in this offense, the guards are more both combo guards, especially this year. While Jonathan's presence has taken a lot of the pressure off Ashanti to play the point exclusively and always be a pass-first thinker, I dont think that you can exclusively label either one as the pure point guard and the other as the shooting guard. You can see evidence in both the alternating of who brings the ball up and sets up the offense, which most of the time is Wallace, but also Ashanti and sometimes DJ or Brandon. Not to mention the offensive outputs of both Wallace and Ashanti, especially with Wallace displaying both a perimeter and penetration game.

Therefore, I think it will be easier for JT3 to be able to rotate the guards in and out, as long as they all know the offense to the same degree. So next year, with the 2 experienced guards in Wallace and Cook, and another year of work for both Ray and Tyler, he will have 4 people who will know the offense really well and be able to mix and match parts, so to speak, depending on the situation and the matchups. I dont think the offense itself lends to having a set point and #2 guard.

Also, I have faith in Cornelio. I think he could become a force off the bench for us. And dont forget DJ - he still has eligibility for next year, which would make us set at the 3 as well.

You're right that we have no pure point. This team has coming back two true combos in Cook and Wallace, a 2 in a 1's body in Ray, and a 3 in a strong 2's body in Tyler.

Sapp and Thornton are both playing point, but they are both 2's learning the position because of size. So I think we'll think of them as combos.

Good thing the Princeton needs all-around players.

[Cambridge]

I see the same starters next year...with a much deeper bench. I see JTIII going to the hot hand off the bench and using it a lot more, but I imagine all those decisions will be based on who gets the offense and who busts their but in practice. Though, look for Crawford to gain more minutes as it seems he is a project of JTIIIs...same with Reed.

[SirSaxa]

Given the extremely limited minutes that Crawford and even Reed get, it would appear that JT3 does not have a lot of confidence in them. Now we see he is bringing in two more kids, Thornton and Sapp, in whom he has a lot of confidence. From what we read, they both sound like really talented kids. That makes it seem that Crawford and Reed are going to be moved further down the bench in all likelihood (barring injury, etc.). So -- and this is TOTAL speculation on my part -- one might wonder if those kids see it the same way and still wish to be part of the team, knowing their minutes are going to be scarce, or perhaps they would prefer to go somewhere else?? (This should not be interpreted as an effort to encourage them to do so, simply a question as to what they might choose, if the assumptions above are correct.)

As for Wallace and Cook, my guess is they'll continue to start -- at least at the beginning of next year. But, Thornton and Sapp will probably get a lot of minutes off the bench. I don't think many of us believe that JT3 is keeping the rotation to 6 guys because he wants to, he is doing it because he only has 6 guys he trusts. If he had two more guards he felt were ready, he would start to use them.

The next question, is will Sapp and/or Thornton be good enough at some point in the season to displace Wallace or Cook from the starting lineup, or for the bulk of the minutes. I don't think anyone can answer that. And from what I read, both guys are more "combo" guards. I don't know if I am the only one who reads "combo" and thinks -- that kid is not really a PG, but he could cover for a few minutes. Again, just a guess on my part.

Edgerson and Spann do sound like some great answers for depth at the 3 and sometimes 4. Assuming Bowman and Green are the starting 3 & 4 next year, and Owens graduates and departs, then Edgerson and Spann would be the primary candidates to back up those two positions.

But, neither of those two qualifies as "a big guy to help out up front". I would bet dollars to donuts that JT3 is working full time to bring in one more guy who is a 4/5. Going into next season with only Roy and Jeff to provide some muscle would not be JT3's first choice. On the other hand, having all 5 starters back next year with a full year of JT3's system behind them, PLUS 4 quality freshmen who can contribute at positions 1, 2, 3, and 4, and losing only our 6th man -- that scenario puts us far ahead of the start of this year.

In short, things are looking a LOT brighter, even if we don't get one more big guy.

[Fan Of The Game]

I think as a general rule, we need to add depth at EVERY position. We have a very thin bench now. Our sixth man (Owens) may be gone next year. Two of our top three scorers will be seniors before we see another recruit join the team. So we should be thankful to hear any and all top recuits who mention Georgetown and not worrry about guys who will be ahead of them at their position. Talent-wise, our team could use a LOT of upgrades.

That wasn't really in response to your question but in response to some chatter I've seen on the board about where new recruits will fit in at different positions.

Next year would appear to be Wallace and Cook at the guards. Out of Crawford, Thornton, Sapp, and (just so I don't get in trouble by not mentioning him) Reed, one or two will rise above the others and command playing time off the bench. Who will it be? If Wallace starting this year tells us anything, it's that who the heck knows who will be worthy of playing time a year from now. If I had to guess? Thornton will lead in PT among those four, followed by Crawford. But I'll leave it to them to earn their minutes.

I agree with HoyaSox's notion that our system lends to a murky distinction between a traditional PG and a traditional SG.

[Cambridge]

I agree that we have no idea...speculation is difficult at best, because I think all the players will bring something different to the court:

Reed - speed, penetration and experience
Crawford - defense, hustle and rebounding
Thornton - deep range, winning attitude and handle
Sapp - explosive first step, strength, handle and penetration
Egerson - expolosive ups, rebounding, size and handle

I think all will see time, but it all depends on how quickly each one understands and plays within the offense. I think it's fair to say, the best players will get time regardless of their age or experience.

Also, I think it's clear that III will throw out the best possible lineup for each individual situation and not stick doggedly to one or two rotations.

[GIGAFAN99]

Easy guys. "By all accounts" our incoming freshmen are always better than our departing seniors simply because we haven't seen them play Big East ball yet.

Cook and Wallace will start and it will take a major occurrence to displace them. They're more experienced and both shoot 40+% from three. JTIII brought Wallace with him. That's how much confidence he has in this kid.

Wallace shoots 45% from three, has a good asst/to ratio and is third on the team in steals. What are the chances Thornton or Sapp can not only do that, but also do it better than JW with one-year experience?

Sapp, Thornton, Crawford, and Reed will all compete for minutes backing up Cook and Wallace. Everyone is in the mix and it is hard to speculate who will emerge.

[SFHoya99]

If Owens goes, I'm not sure if our depth improves all that much next year.

I know we are all excited for Jessie, Josh, Ocatvius and Marc. But I think that we all have to be prepared for one or two of them not to quite ready for prime time as freshmen.

With RaMell and DJ going, we lose our sixth and seventh man.

Our recruiting class will likely replace that, amyeb adding one more ready for BE player.

Where our depth will best come from, in my mind, is if Ray, Cornelio, Roy and Tyler improve. They say the biggest jump is from freshman to sophomore year.

Let's hope so.

[Cambridge]

Best case scenario...our Ray Reed and Tyler Crawford make some huge strides and solidify their places in the rotation...

That takes the pressure off the incoming freshmen and allows them to develop without getting called out for every freshmen mistake they make by overeager fansn -- cough Hibbs cough --

Just saying, every year, the buzz is about the new kids...personally, while I hope they all turn out to be studs next year...

It seems that JTIII seems to have a strong connection with the players and I believe that the longer players work under him the better they will become. Therefore I think it's more likely that we'll see huge leaps from Reed and Crawford than Freshmen studs running out of the gate.

[SFHoya99]

GIGAFAN99 said:

Easy guys. "By all accounts" our incoming freshmen are always better than our departing seniors simply because we haven't seen them play Big East ball yet.

Cook and Wallace will start and it will take a major occurrence to displace them. They're more experienced and both shoot 40+% from three. JTIII brought Wallace with him. That's how much confidence he has in this kid.

Wallace shoots 45% from three, has a good asst/to ratio and is third on the team in steals. What are the chances Thornton or Sapp can not only do that, but also do it better than JW with one-year experience?

Sapp, Thornton, Crawford, and Reed will all compete for minutes backing up Cook and Wallace. Everyone is in the mix and it is hard to speculate who will emerge.

Giga, that's kind of what I was trying to say. I don't think Sapp or Thornton can beat out either incumbent for the variety of reasons both you and I listed.

But the consensus seems to be that they are more physically talented. Whether they have better skills, understand the offense better, make better decisions...well, I agree that it is unlikely they will do so as freshmen.

[gopaland]

Well said CambridgeHoya, couldn't agree more. Only wanted to add a few more coughs.

[pax]

The writing is on the wall for Reed, Crawford, and any other bench player who can't make a case for himself by the end of the season. As was pointed out earlier, Wallace is Thompson's guy and he is invested in him to a degree. He also seems to like what Cook brings to the table, at least for now.

This is a new coach who is trying to wash out the stink of a losing program. He has to live with what he has inherited for now. I'm not saying he isn't open minded, but the new recruits will be his guys. I'm sure he doesn't spend any time at all contemplating the "development" of Reed or Crawford. He has their replacements arriving next fall.

I really don't know how good they are, but I would not be shocked to see a couple of freshmen start next year. Heck, he starts 3 freshmen this year.

[SFHoya99]

Pax, I have to disagree. I think it is pretty obvious that he is very interested in developing Ray, in particular. Ray has gotten minutes regardless of play, even over a player like RaMell or even DJ.

I think III realizes that Ray is the quickest guard we have. That may not be true next year, but it is now.

And Crawford has gotten minutes in places I never would have expected, probably because of his size. Remember, Tyler did light up the Kenner playoffs. Different setting, different game, but it isn't like he's devoid of talent.

[Eurostar]

Im glad we are talking about young guys playing their way into the lineup as opposed to starters playing their way out of it. Whenever there is a situation where that happens, only good can come of it. Wallace is not going anywhere, he is as important to our success this year as Jeff Green. Though we have a bunch of guards, as posted above it seems that they all present a different set of skills. If Thornton isnt a liability on defense, he will get minutes immediately because he shoots lights out. The only overlap I see is Sapp and Reed, both guards who can create but cant really shoot. If Sapp learns the system, I can see him displacing Reeds minutes next year. Egerson and Spann should take the role of DJ/RaMell nicely. The returning guys will have a clear advantage over the frosh because the system is so hard to learn.. they still look lost out there at times and probably will all season.

[HOYAPLAYA]

I just don't see any freshman cracking the starting lineup unless we have an injury problem. Let's stop and remember that these kids are going to be freshmen in an offense that requires learning the system and not just running up and down the floor and beating people with your skills/athleticism. The Jeff Green/Mike Sweetney freshman don't come along very often and it usually takes most guards a full year to develop on the college level. In the end, Hibbert's development will be the reason one of the freshman do or don't start next year. If he still isn't ready and we have a better alternative, we may just go small like we did at the beginning of this year. That still might mean that Crawford gets the starting nod in DJ's spot and the freshmen still come off the bench.

[SirSaxa]

Freshmen

I think it is very interesting that a number of posters are writing about the incoming freshmen and that they won't get time because the system is so hard to learn. The bench players who don't even get into games this year will be far ahead of them.

But we all know that JT is starting 3 freshmen right now. If DJ is the only bench player getting minutes -- when additional bodies are so desperately needed -- why would anyone assume these non-playing bench players will have a big advantage over much more highly rated recruits, who were brought in by JT3 himself?

I am not suggesting they will come in and take starting roles.
But it seems highly likely that at least two, and maybe all four of our freshmen will be significant contributors next season.

Could any of them win a starting spot sometime during the year next season? Why not. As mentioned, there are 3 freshmen starting now.

Finally, it has to be easier for the new guys to get with JT's program next season because the rest of the team will already know what to do. Teaching a few guys to contribute is a lot easier than teaching the entire team from scratch. And the new kids can learn from the older kids next year, something that isn't possible this year.

I just think it is tough to justify the belief that bench players who don't get minutes now are going to be so improved that they'll get a lot of minutes next year. Especially when they will be competing with higher rated kids coming in.

All that said, the team should be an open competition next year. If Tyler or Cornelio or anyone can beat out some other guys -- good for them, give them more minutes.

And finally, who starts is not as important as who finishes. Someone who might not be a starter could still be playing a crucial role at crunch time.

[SFHoya99]

One of the best side benefits of the Jessie Sapp commit is that we can actually follow the guy, unlike Marc Egerson in Philly (Philly does not care about Prep hoops, apparently) or Georgia (which baffles me). Josh gets good coverage in Delaware.

According to the Post, Jessie had 24 and 16 in his first two games, then has gone off for 36, 31, 30, and 31 again in last next four.

He's hit 13 3's in those six games, and shot 72% from the FT line. Twelve of those 3's have been in the last four games.