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Post by saxacalhoya on May 9, 2006 18:14:23 GMT -5
To quote their website, freethehoya.com, "It is a conflict of interest for The Hoya to cover student organizations for fear of administrative repercussions. A newspaper should inherently be free of any type of conflicts of ownership to the greatest extent possible, and it goes without saying that a newspaper that reports about the university should not be owned by that university." We should probably talk to Rupert Murdoch or the 5 multi-national companies that control 90% of the media in the World about "conflict of interest" before acting as though The Hoya is threatened by the University. Just wondering, can the supporters of Hoya independence document one example where they weren't allowed to write something? One example would be nice.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on May 9, 2006 19:16:24 GMT -5
First off, can you point out an investigative news story in The Voice? Keep in mind, this is a newspaper that publishes half as often and printed a cover with a HUGE headline that said “ The The Story About….” Do you really want to debate The Hoya vs The Voice? Hey, I haven't been on campus for three years, and I don't read the Voice online, so maybe things have changed. But when I was at GU The Voice had interesting news stories where the journalist actually had to do some substantial work to get the story, whereas the HOYA simply reported on the easy stories. And that's coming from someone who wrote for the latter paper. But no, I don't really want to debate the HOYA vs. The Voice, that's why I put my comment in parentheses -- it wasn't important. Secondly, the idea that national news articles are written solely for the benefit of the writers is the biggest joke I have ever heard. As someone pretty familiar with, though not involved in the news process at The Hoya, I can say pretty unequivocally that that is incorrect. I wasn't saying this is currently the case at the HOYA. The HOYA, for the most part, doesn't have big national news articles. I was saying this was the case at big budget independent campus newspapers like the one I currently read multiple times a week. And I don't think the editors of those papers conspired to do something for the benefit of themselves -- I just think that's the end result because nobody cares about national/international news from an inferior source in an era where washingtonpost.com is just a click away. Likewise, the people pushing for the HOYA's independence probably believe in the ideals of independence, but I think the real impetus pushing this movement is what the current and future employees of the HOYA will get out of the paper, not what will benefit the campus as a whole. However, not to seem like I am attacking you, the general sentiment that the newspaper needs to improve, significantly, especially if it is independent, is a good and valid one. But, do you have any actual suggestions, or is it just something you need to see to know its better? I think the best thing for the campus newspapers would be the creation of a journalism department (or at least the expansion of journalism courses within the English dept.) and more interaction between a) faculty and editors; and b) editors and staff. I think this would provide improvements in leadership and structure, and would probably lead to the institution of more quality control. I don't ever expect the paper to be great, because campus newspapers are, IMO, more of a learning experience than anything else. If you improve the learning process through increased University support (and by that I mean both opportunities to learn and not taking all of the HOYA's money), I think the paper improves. I will grant that the University has not held up its end of the bargain with regard to the HOYA in recent years, but I don't know if independence will do much to increase reporting quality. (This is not to say I'm completely against independence -- the paper is currently getting a raw deal from GU.)
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Jack
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Post by Jack on May 9, 2006 21:27:07 GMT -5
We should probably talk to Rupert Murdoch or the 5 multi-national companies that control 90% of the media in the World about "conflict of interest" before acting as though The Hoya is threatened by the University. Just wondering, can the supporters of Hoya independence document one example where they weren't allowed to write something? One example would be nice. I guess they've said in the past that anything that goes against the "Catholic identity" cannot be written about. So for instance, if they wanted to have a two-sided editorial, and have one person publish an article in favor of pro-life, and another one for pro-choice, they couldn't do that. Or at least that's what I've heard people at the Hoya complain about, but I'm not entirely sure. Also, they have to be incredibly careful about criticizing the University for anything. Like writing articles on how terrible our endowment is/needs to be fixed, anything that reflects "badly" on the University, etc. Total strawmen. There is no prior restraint on the news or editorial content of The Hoya, and they have hardly held back on criticism. There are restrictions on the ads they can accept, but otherwise there is no censorship going on.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on May 9, 2006 22:08:31 GMT -5
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Post by saxacalhoya on May 9, 2006 22:09:32 GMT -5
I guess they've said in the past that anything that goes against the "Catholic identity" cannot be written about. So for instance, if they wanted to have a two-sided editorial, and have one person publish an article in favor of pro-life, and another one for pro-choice, they couldn't do that. Or at least that's what I've heard people at the Hoya complain about, but I'm not entirely sure. Also, they have to be incredibly careful about criticizing the University for anything. Like writing articles on how terrible our endowment is/needs to be fixed, anything that reflects "badly" on the University, etc. Have to agree with Jack here ... those arguments are bogus. They're not careful about reporting inaccurate information, so why should they worry about criticizing the University? Maybe they should be more concerned about getting the facts straight in their stories instead of pretending the University is the boogeyman.
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on May 9, 2006 23:18:23 GMT -5
I'm sure the hoya will improve once that sleazebag Mendoza is out of power. With his self-righteousness and poor journalism, he has singlehandedly destroyed any semblance of legitimacy that the hoya ever had and he unfortunately remains waay too visible on our lovely hilltop. Hoya staff: Remove Moises [Edited] who only cares about his precious journalism career but will never be anything but a two-bit journalist. I’m not sure why you are so vehemently opposed to Mendoza, but in any case, he is no longer the EIC. He did not run for re-election. There was an article about it in The Hoya. www.thehoya.com/news/042506/news9.cfm
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on May 9, 2006 23:21:00 GMT -5
No one knows definitively what is going to happen — not even The Hoya who is still working everything out — so to say that not only is the newspaper going to leave, but that its going to lose the name and then have to compete with a new version of The Hoya is pretty inappropriate. At least that’s how I see it. The editorial board has been told that they don't get to keep the name. That isn't changing. And frankly, all DFW was pointing out is that there is nothing to stop another group of students on campus from starting a student publication and requesting to use that name. Not saying it will happen, but it is possible since the University is retaining the name. Sorry I didn’t make my last two messages into one, I know that I shouldn’t be taking up two. But, the above is not true. It just is not. I’m not sure who you know, but it is a blatant mischaracterization of the facts. Could THE HOYA lose the name, absolutely. Has it without-a-doubt lost the name? No. Also, there may be something stopping another publication from using the name. Let's wait and see what happens, don't speak to soon.
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Post by hoyasaxa2008 on May 10, 2006 3:32:24 GMT -5
To clarify my last post, I am not against the Hoya's independence in theory -- in fact, I think that if the Hoya is careful about how it does it and manages to survive the transition process (which I'm confident it would if everything has been thought out already), an independent Hoya will be better able to serve the students by paying its editors more (even though, let's face it, there are a lot of people on campus who work just as hard in Hoya Blue, GUSA, the Hilltop Auction, VPS, and even GUGS who don't get paid) and by "extending their services for the student body" as they like to say.
The dangers come in whether or not the Hoya manages to survive the transition off-campus due to the moving of their offices and the huge amount of responsibility that they will now have to shoulder. Past that, my objections are that I fear that the Hoya is trying to escape from being a campus newspaper in order to be a wider-interest newspaper -- of less interest, ultimately, to the campus community that it was created to serve.
I also think that, as I wrote before, there are less disruptive ways for the Hoya to become independent. For example, the Hoya could arrange for a gradual increase in its financial autonomy so as not to pull $50,000 in annual support from student clubs all at once. Or, the Hoya could just wait a few years; in about 2010 the Student Activities Endowment created by the GUSA leadership in 2001 will become active and the student activities budget will jump, in one year, by about $150,000. If the Hoya waited until then, its independence wouldn't endanger other student activities and I would give them all of my support. As it is, my objections are that the consequences of their actions are dangerous to other student activities and I'm afraid that the Hoya is losing its campus focus.
Regarding the other papers, there is no doubt that the Voice (and even the Federalist, recently!) do more investigative journalism than the Hoya. That's not a problem; that's just what they are for. Most of the Hoya's energies go towards news articles based off of broadcast emails, or movie reviews. The Voice, because it is almost more like a magazine and prints only weekly, is at liberty to do deeper investigation, such as its recent, thought-provoking, very long articles on "What's wrong with GUSA?" and the future of student performing arts at Georgetown. (I recommend the second one; it looks in-depth at the effects of the new Performing Arts Center and the Program of Performing Arts upon student-run theater and explores the competition for participation and resources that these two groups are experiencing.) These articles are much longer than any articles in the Hoya, and as a result are more interesting even if there are far fewer of them and they aren't really "current events" so much as general trends. Hell, even the Federalist did some muckraking recently when it delved into whether or not the GUSA president and vice president get a stipend from the University and why it's so much lower than at comparable universities.
Regarding the Hoya's name, I know that there are several administrators who are hugely opposed to the Hoya keeping its name. I have heard that the Hoya has trademarked the Hilltopper as a name, and that if it sued over the name then it will be unable to fight the suit due to the prohibitive expense. I also know that some members of the Hoya's staff believe that there is a deal worked out that, even if the Hoya doesn't get to keep the name, no other University-sanctioned group will be allowed to have it.
Anyway, if the Hoya were to wait another 3 or 4 years to become independent, the financial problems would solve themselves. Right now the student activities budget is at a cap and won't increase again until 2010, when it will have a sudden jump. Also, in reality, the Hoya will probably continue to divorce itself from campus issues regardless of whether or not it becomes independent.
I just hope that the Board of the Hoya will do the right thing and try not to be too destructive as they head out the door.
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on May 10, 2006 11:39:39 GMT -5
Past that, my objections are that I fear that the Hoya is trying to escape from being a campus newspaper in order to be a wider-interest newspaper -- of less interest, ultimately, to the campus community that it was created to serve. I don’t think THE HOYA has any plans whatsoever to change the focus of their coverage. The only reason they are moving off campus is because the University wouldn’t (understandably) allow an independent HOYA to publish on campus. In reality though, it is still the students who they will be trying to serve. That said, news about the general Georgetown community, whether news of inside the gates or outside, is still serving the Georgetown community. An aspect of this that everyone is overlooking is that of diversity. As it is currently constituted, THE HOYA is comprised of an almost entirely white staff. There have been few exceptions in recent years. Why is that? Probably a number of reasons, but one of them is that with a 30-40 hour work week, students who need to work a job for money are effectively prohibited from taking on a high-leadership position with THE HOYA. Hard to work 50 hours as Editor in Chief and still hold down a job elsewhere to pay for food. If THE HOYA were to go independent, stipends could double within three years, and the number of people receiving stipends could increase, and working as an editor of THE HOYA could become a job that someone could actually sustain themselves on for a semester. When that happens, it is possible, even likely, that diversity within the staff will improve and ultimately the paper will be better for that.
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on May 10, 2006 13:34:33 GMT -5
Well its a stupid point to argue, but there is one issue left in the semester -- graduation issue -- and Mendoza will not be presiding over that issue as EIC, so lets just stop ripping him. Whether he was good, bad, or ugly for the paper, he will NOT be presiding over THE HOYA as it moves to independence. As for "independence would be horrible for the newspaper," I'm still wondering what cooldc's basis is for this claim? Have you done research? Have you talked to people on the Board of Directors about what exactly it is they are doing? Have you even listed your reasons on this forum that you so vehemently oppose the idea? Not on the three pages of this thread.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on May 10, 2006 13:38:46 GMT -5
I feel THE HOYA should change its name to Georgetown Ballroom Dance and then do an interprative number set to Devil Went Down to Georgia ...
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Post by saxacalhoya on May 10, 2006 14:45:23 GMT -5
Looks like they've given up on The Hoya and are already publishing The Hilltop: www.thehilltoponline.com/home/... oh wait, that's Howard. Back to the drawing board I guess.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on May 10, 2006 15:04:21 GMT -5
I am beginning to think cooldc19 might not like Mendoza.
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Post by hoyasaxa2008 on May 10, 2006 15:27:15 GMT -5
I think that the name that the Hoya registered was "the Hilltopper", not the Hilltop. Apparently that used to be their name (?) or was the name of another on-campus publication? I dunno, something like that. In any event it'll be funny that we're now taking ideas from Howard.
Regarding the change in campus focus -- they are planning to do it, I heard it straight from the horse's mouth. They want to cover "more than just Georgetown news". Plus, any person who has gone back and looked at the Hoya a few years ago, even the early online editions, can see that the Hoya has changed.
I think that there are plenty of arguments for and against independence. However, I think that independence should be a goal that the Hoya works for so that it can eventually join the ranks of other top-25 newspapers. The timing is a bit problematic, though, and it'd be nice to reassure the Georgetown community by showing us the financials and long-term mechanisms that they're putting in place to make sure that this paper doesn't go belly-up.
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on May 10, 2006 19:22:16 GMT -5
In response to the previous post: 1. Mendoza WILL be presiding over the final issue. He is EinC until the END of the semester, according to that news story you pointed to earlier. Or does this mean that he has finally been removed for his utter incompetence? 2. Mendoza is an example of so-called racial diversity and I think he has been terrible. I hope by diversity you don't mean that there's going to be some sort of affirmative action thing for minorities because the people I've talked to tell me that's EXACTLY how mendoza got hired to be EinC in the first place. There were more qualified people supposedly but they weren't "diverse" enough. I guess it's great for the university to present an EinC who is a minority, hmm? I'll bet it just looks peachy to their donors. Clearly he brought way too much "diversity" to the newspaper. I like the newspaper how it is, you don't need to bring more minorities into the newspaper artificially because then you have another Mendoza and competent people will be excluded to make more room for people like him just because they are "minorities." Mendoza was a buffoon. Do you really want more buffoons who get promoted solely because of their skin color, because that seems like that's what you're arguing. 3. Yes as a matter of fact, I have talked to Hoya staff members about independence and it is a fact that you could get all the funding you need by staying at Georgetown. This is 1. A ploy by mendoza to get more minorities into senior positions 2. A ploy by some members of the staff to advance their journalism careers. I even talked to Mendoza once and he made no sense at all. He and the board of directors (which he happens to be on, so I'm sure he'll be trying to wield power behind the scenes) keep blathering on about censorship or whatever, but what really needs to happen is for someone to censor him so he'll shut up! 1. OK I’m not going to argue with you about your first point, but you are wrong. 2. No one has ever been hired as an editor of THE HOYA. At least not in recent history. Every editor is elected, and there is no such thing as just giving someone a post. Elections have been known to last upwards of 16 hours. Mendoza ran unopposed for Editor in Chief. To say that he got the job as part of some weird affirmative action scheme is ridiculous. He was a senior news editor, a managing editor, and a features editor before being EIC so to say he wasn’t qualified is a little weird. And to say that there were other, more qualified candidates in an unopposed election is somewhat ridiculous. Are there more qualified people at Georgetown? Likely. On THE HOYA? Perhaps. But I think candidate is the key word. And you totally misunderstand the idea of diversity. THE HOYA, as it is explained, is not going to go out and find African-Americans and Hispanics in the Georgetown community to see if they want to be in the paper for the sake of diversity. BUT, people with less socio-economic ability (whites AND minorities), will be able to work for THE HOYA because they will get a more substantial salary. To say that people will get promoted only because of their skin color — NO ONE gets promoted, by the way, see above — is again ridiculous. 3. Not sure where you came up with that little tidbit.
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afirth
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Post by afirth on May 10, 2006 19:57:00 GMT -5
I feel THE HOYA should change its name to Georgetown Ballroom Dance and then do an interprative number set to Devil Went Down to Georgia ... so unnecessary. yet so hilarious.
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Post by hoya3416 on May 11, 2006 13:49:00 GMT -5
Anyone who wants to get a better understanding should sort through freethehoya.com.
Anyone who has any questions should email editor@thehoya.com, or any editor at The Hoya, after reading the info on the web site. The editors are more than willing to talk about independence with anyone who cares. But outside of this talkboard, most Georgetown students simply don't care. The Web site was set up so that anyone who did have questions could get them answered.
The Hoya isn't looking to take money away from the university. We've even offered to have some sort of graduated plan by which the paper could pay "alimony" to the university as it leaves. One way for the university to keep its money from The Hoya would be to charge rent for office space.
The editors of The Hoya are the last people on the planet who are going to drive the newspaper off a cliff. Do you really think they want to see it go belly up? The move off-campus is not for sure, though it has been a possibility. There's a good chance the off-campus operation, and along with an independent operation, would force the newspaper to stop being a club and to take on the attitude of a professional organization. That's been the experience of nearly every independent newspaper that's out there. Moving off campus would change the recruitment dynamic, sure -- only the kids really serious about writing would come, but they would stay.
The Hoya isn't doing this because of a case of prior restraint, though when I served as editor I dealt with about three deans who thought we should have had some stories not run. Fortunately, the administration at Georgetown wouldn't be likely to do anything that severe. Legally, the university is not required to protect the newspaper in the event it is sued. In 1997, The Voice faced a lawsuit for a story about legacy admissions; the story alleged that there were some legacy admits for folks on the Hill who were doing favors for the university. The Voice was told they would be sued if they ran the story, and when the university found out, they told The Voice it would be on its own if it were sued. In 1989, The Hoya did not publish after it was not allowed to print a speech advertisement. But on the whole, the editorial push for independence has more to do with the post about how "The Hoya has kind of sucked for as long as I've read it, and that has encompassed the tenures of several people who I know to be ultra-bright. So maybe the problem is cultural - bad habits and sloppy editing that are passed down from staff member to staff member." Independence is the surest way to change that culture -- to end the idea that the newspaper is just a "club."
There are a lot of great arguments on both sides of this board. The coverage is sometimes weak or boring. The paper is always a learning instutition, and some areas are going to be good some semesters and not so great in others. One area where the paper has particularly improved has been on crime coverage, where it has negotiated with DPS and Metro to get better, more detailed crime reports. In others it has plenty of room for improvement -- something the editors know all too well. It has made some forays into non-campus news, but it usually tries to keep the Georgetown angle front and center. If it doesn't do that, it really shouldn't be writing about those events because as someone said, the Post covers that material better anyway. The reason the Daily Texan has plenty of national news is because there probably isn't enough on campus news to fill a daily -- so they have to run wire stories and national news content. By and large, no one is going to read about Iraq elections in THe Hoya, though there may be an occasional piece on student aid funding in Congress or a Darfur rally that lots of students attend.
As for where independence currently stands -- there are so many new developments for the current staff, that it is impossible to say where this will end up. The new board of directors really has some of the best editors of the paper on it, and it isn't going to drop the ball. They aren't going to run off and let this collapse. It is amazing to see how much speculation (most of it false) on this board -- the editors will keep people updated of progress, it's in their interest, but there are a lot of undecideds still up in the air and it's pointless to add to the speculation here.
As for cooldc -- he has not made one valid point on this entire post that he started. He obviously has his own feud with Mendoza -- my guess is that it stems from an editorial decision in the newspaper.
Cooldc is a coward, a miserable coward who hides behind anonymous posts, the complete opposite of an editor like Mendoza who has his name published with every story that he writes, and who makes himself more than available to speak with readers and critics. when he has so little command of facts or arguments. I think that's readily apparent to everyone on this board. As someone who worked as Mendoza's senior editor, it's clear that he knows nothing about what he's talking about. Moises will be gone from THe Hoya in one year, and yet the goals of the newspaper will be the same -- editorially, and on independence.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on May 11, 2006 16:22:08 GMT -5
Cooldc is a coward, a miserable coward who hides behind anonymous posts, the complete opposite of an editor like Mendoza who has his name published with every story that he writes, and who makes himself more than available to speak with readers and critics. when he has so little command of facts or arguments. I think that's readily apparent to everyone on this board. As someone who worked as Mendoza's senior editor, it's clear that he knows nothing about what he's talking about. Moises will be gone from THe Hoya in one year, and yet the goals of the newspaper will be the same -- editorially, and on independence. Well said. I love how you ducked behind that high horse right after you took your own potshot. Brilliant! Personally, I love these Mendoza/Hoy threads. No series of threads has so enthralled me since the Palestinian conference threads and the arrival of Hussaria. Where hath thou gone Hussaria?
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on May 11, 2006 17:01:41 GMT -5
Cooldc is a coward, a miserable coward who hides behind anonymous posts, the complete opposite of an editor like Mendoza who has his name published with every story that he writes, and who makes himself more than available to speak with readers and critics. when he has so little command of facts or arguments. I think that's readily apparent to everyone on this board. As someone who worked as Mendoza's senior editor, it's clear that he knows nothing about what he's talking about. Moises will be gone from THe Hoya in one year, and yet the goals of the newspaper will be the same -- editorially, and on independence. Well said. I love how you ducked behind that high horse right after you took your own potshot. Brilliant! Personally, I love these Mendoza/Hoy threads. No series of threads has so enthralled me since the Palestinian conference threads and the arrival of Hussaria. Where hath thou gone Hussaria? I think 3416 meant that cooldc doesn’t know what he is talking about, not Mendoza.
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hoyaLS05
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Post by hoyaLS05 on May 15, 2006 18:48:53 GMT -5
Since this board seems to have an unusual level of interest in The HOYA's independence movement, I figured I’d share an update on the matter that I received from a reliable source.
The HOYA will not be publishing independently or from off campus in the fall; the Board of Directors chose to wait for an amicable resolution of the name issue before finalizing their separation from the University. It is very possible, though hardly certain, that eventually — read as soon as this August or as late as August 2007 — the two sides will come to some sort of agreement and The HOYA publishes independently as The HOYA. And, once they do reach an agreement on the name and the newspaper does become independent, it is likely that the University allows them to stay on campus for a few years to save money and leave the campus with a more certain financial situation.
So from the way I understand it, The HOYA is still seriously pursuing independence, but not necessarily for the Fall of '06 and not — if they can do anything to help it — at the expense of losing The HOYA name. Seems like those were many of the concerns that this board raised.
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