Hoya 2007/2008 Power Lineup

[chep3]

I agree with MCI completely. Its conceivable that the frosh come in and replace Sapp. I personally think he's going to take a big jump this yearand that the games he had in the tourney are going to be indicative of his play next year, and I really think he's going to have a great 2007-08. But MCI's completely right, it's very possible that the frosh will be that good, we'll just have to see. It's an amazing problem to have.

That being said, from what I hear on this board about Wright and Freeman, they seem tailor made to come off the bench. Without Jeff, when Roy sits, we need players on the floor that can create their own shot. With those kids' offensive games being ahead of their defensive games, it would be nice to have them come off the bench and use that offensive firepower. This is so much better than 5 years ago.

[Filo]

I pretty much see Sapp, Wallace, Summers, Ewing, Hibbert starting the season, but I don't think that will be the line-up at the end of the season. And, I don't think starting is going to matter all that much with this team, since there will likely be a pretty deep rotation.

It's kind of wild to think about the depth, and in some ways I think there is not going to be enough PT to spread around. Think about it -- Wallace, Freeman, Hibbert, Summers, Macklin, Ewing, Sapp, Wright and Rivers -- that's 9 right there. Realistically, I just don't see Wattad and Mescheriakov getting much play even if they are pleasant surprises. There's just not enough time given the talent ahead of them.

A big question is what kind of role Tyler plays. I know some folks on the board really like him, and JTIII always has great things to say about him, but I just can't see him getting much PT either as the season progresses and Freeman and Wright start getting acclimated.

If either Freeman or Wright live up top expectations as freshman (think of a Summers-type season), the Hoyas are going to be deep and really nasty come March, if not before.

[GIGAFAN99]

I don't see why we're so bent on saying that won't be the lineup at the end of the season. That starting lineup is likely four returning starters and a senior who was the first man off the bench.

You know how many starting lineups we had last year? Three and one was because Sapp was injured out of the gate. We had the exact same lineup the last 34 games of the season. You know how many we had the season before? One, in all 33 games.

I'm not sure why we think JTIII is going to fiddle with his starting lineup when he's never done it. He obviously values experience to start and doesn't like replacing incumbents (There was no incumbent at Bowman's spot being that he and Owens split the 3).

I think the lineup in game 1 is the lineup in April. Guys might earn more minutes but I don't foresee some shakeup in the starting lineup at all.

[theexorcist]

tbird41 said:

theexorcist said:

Before you lay down dollars to donuts that Freeman starts, remember the first part of last year - the team struggling to "get" the offense. The Princeton offense isn't quickly learned.

So did that first part where they didn't get the offense end when Summers was moved into the starting lineup in the fourth game of the year?

Tbird:

Fair point. For the record, I don't think Georgetown started clicking until a third of the way through the season (let's make it the Michigan game), which was twelve games in. Georgetown also had to replace two scorers, one of whom was the unquestioned alpha dog. This year should be easier, though not "easy".

Now to my point, which admittedly wasn't as clear as it could have been. Last year, the other forwards theoretically competing for Summers' spot were Egerson, Ewing, or Macklin. Macklin was a frosh, and it was Ewing's first year playing. Egerson was an OK player, but wasn't gangbusters. Summers passing him to start didn't cause much consternation.

Compare. Next year, Sapp will be Final Four-tested and has contributed significantly - much more so than Egerson had. If Freeman is as good as advertised, it makes more sense for III to put Freeman in even if the team doesn't do as well so that he can gain experience.

The litmus test for this may be one of the marquee games - maybe Memphis. If Austin's on the trajectory to be a high-level player - in other words, to pass Jessie in terms of skills - it makes sense to start him for a game like this (or at least give him significant minutes) to give him the experience needed to make a difference in March. If Austin doesn't play well during the game - and the history with the Princeton offense makes this a very significant possibility - then many on this board will say that Jessie is the better fit.

Despite that, crafting the team for April may make starting Austin earlier than expected in terms of skills a legitimate decision.

Hope that this is a little clearer.

[theexorcist]

Gigafan:

Georgetown brought in two very good recruits. If recruits do not get playing time, recruits transfer and other potential recruits decide to go to other schools when they see they'll have to wait for two years.

The recruits III brought in this year were significantly better than the recruits from last year, and the year before, III started three freshmen. I'm more willing to chalk up his decision to a lack of other available options rather than a coaching philosophy.

It's possible that III may start Austin right off the bat, but Sapp seems to be too good to be replaced immediately.

[Eurostar]

gigafan99 said:

I don't see why we're so bent on saying that won't be the lineup at the end of the season. That starting lineup is likely four returning starters and a senior who was the first man off the bench.

You know how many starting lineups we had last year? Three and one was because Sapp was injured out of the gate. We had the exact same lineup the last 34 games of the season. You know how many we had the season before? One, in all 33 games.

I'm not sure why we think JTIII is going to fiddle with his starting lineup when he's never done it. He obviously values experience to start and doesn't like replacing incumbents (There was no incumbent at Bowman's spot being that he and Owens split the 3).

I think the lineup in game 1 is the lineup in April. Guys might earn more minutes but I don't foresee some shakeup in the starting lineup at all.

Exactly. MCI I didn't say that Sapp would outplay both Wright and Freeman all season. This discussion is about starting lineups and I dont see how (barring injury like what happened to Tyler last year) Sapp would be replaced. Thats not saying that Wright and Freeman wont get more time than Sapp in big games. I can see the new guards as this past years Ewing. Energy guys that come off the bench and often finish the games by the end of the season. In 2 years who knows? You might see Wright, Freeman and Summers starting. You also might see Sapp, Wright, Freeman starting with Summers in the NBA.

Granted, this is assuming that Chris Wright doesnt start putting up Scottie Reynolds type performances from the bench. I dont think this is going to happen because from what Ive seen he's an unselfish kid and wont be our top scoring option on the floor at any point. I think its more likely that Sapp improves his shooting/penetrating even more in the offseason and becomes a real scoring threat for us.

Either way, this is a great discussion to be having. We have a legitimate 6 guys who could see time at the guard slots: Sapp, Wallace, Crawford, Wright, Freeman, Rivers... and all of them are high-major talent.

[MCIGuy]

You know how many starting lineups we had last year? Three and one was because Sapp was injured out of the gate. We had the exact same lineup the last 34 games of the season. You know how many we had the season before? One, in all 33 games.

.

Well, in III's first season we had two starting lineups. That suggests that III, like other coaches, is open to tweaking the starting lineup (even if just once) during the course of the season. He has already done it in two of the three seasons. Acting as if its an impossibility that it could happen this season doesn't make sense. Again the starting lineup could feature, for an entire season, strictly guys who were on the Final Four team. No one is denying that. But don't get upset when its pointed out that that may not be how it turns out in the end and certainly lets not pretend as if its totally out of the question if a newcomer takes a spot on the starting roster. As RDF pointed out what happens in the first practices will obviously be a huge determing factor. And if Sapp and Ewing get the starting nods after that then that's more than okay with me.

[MCIGuy]

minionhoya said:

Exactly. MCI I didn't say that Sapp would outplay both Wright and Freeman all season. This discussion is about starting lineups and I dont see how (barring injury like what happened to Tyler last year) Sapp would be replaced.

This is what confuses me. Its one thing to to argue why you think Sapp should and will keep his starting job. Its quite another to write that "you can't see" how he coud lose it. Are you folks serious? He could lose it because the people coming in are POSSIBLY that much more talented and skilled than he is, expereince or no expereince. And while we cannot sit here and say for certain how Freeman and Austin will fare, can we at least stop acting as if Sapp is Sleepy Floyd?

What you are suggesting would be like me saying (after Hibbert's soph season) that I can't see how one of those Lopez twins (McDonald All Americans from Stanford) could possibly beat out Roy for the starting center spot if the Hoyas had recruited them. Now, I personally may have thought then and now that Roy was the better prospect and I may even think that based upon Roy's experience with the Princeton offense and his fantastic showing in the NCAA tournament in '06 that he had the upper leg on the Lopez twins. But in no way would I be unrealistic enough to write that "I can't possibly see how Roy could lose his starting spot, etc." Come on. If one of the Lopez twins was kicking his butt in practice I would think it would be only fair for that player to not only get more minutes but to get the starting nod eventually too (is it some consolation prize to be put in the starting lineup even if you're getting less minutes?). The same goes for Sapp if Freeman or possibly Wright outperform him and demonstrate more skills. To tell the truth if Wright had arrived at GU during the sophomore season of Wallace or perhaps even the junior season of Wallace, I would have been writing the same thing about Wallace having to hold on to his job. And I say this even though I fully expect Wallace to be widely considered a top 20 or top 25 Hoya player (of all time) after his senior season is through.

Of course I can also understand not ruffling any feathers and keeping the youngin's out of the starting spots. Why possibly ruin team chemistry, right? But I will mention again that this is the "price" of recruiting top shelf talent. If they live up to their billing they may push beloved but less talented upperclassmen aside. To hope the Hoyas recruit all these talented players and then expect or wish those newcomers to wait a couple of years, even if they outplay the more experience starters, is a bit much.

Good luck to all the players. Here's hoping they perform their best and let the chips fall where they may.

[Eurostar]

mciguy said:

This is what confuses me. Its one thing to to argue why you think Sapp should and will keep his starting job. Its quite another to write that "you can't see" how he coud lose it. Are you folks serious? He could lose it because the people coming in are POSSIBLY that much more talented and skilled than he is, expereince or no expereince. And while we cannot sit here and say for certain how Freeman and Austin will fare, can we at least stop acting as if Sapp is Sleepy Floyd?

Dude, I think saying that Sapp, Wallace, Summers, Ewing, Hibbert is a lock for the starting lineup at the start of the year is a pretty non controversial statement. JT3 values experience and the Princeton offense requires it. Four of these guys were starters last year on a final 4 team and Ewing was our 6th man. They know how to play together.

As far as making a change in the middle of the year, I mentioned 2 ways in which Sapp could lose his starting job. One is injury and the other is if Chris Wright (or Freeman for that matter) just starts blowing up like Scottie Reynolds. I think theres a better chance that Sapp is the one to have a breakout season. I'm basing this on watching every game of Sapp's Georgtown career and seeing flashes of brilliance and a significant improvement between his freshman and sophomore seasons. Assuming that he becomes a bit more consistent with his aggressiveness and outside shooting, I'm expecting another improvement into his junior season. I'm also basing it on the fact that I've seen Freeman and Wright play a few times in high school and in the All American games and they seem like great players, but not guys who will blow Sapp (2 years ahead in development) out of the water. And I dont see JT3 making the switch to Wright/Freeman over Sapp if they are playing at a comparable level.

It seems like you're arguing syntax with us. Obviously theres a chance that Wright or Freeman starts at some point this year, but in my opinion its not probable.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Do we start players who have Final Four experience or McDonalds All-Americans? Geez, these are terrible decisions to have.

[MCIGuy]

minionhoya said:

Dude, I think saying that Sapp, Wallace, Summers, Ewing, Hibbert is a lock for the starting lineup at the start of the year is a pretty non controversial statement. JT3 values experience and the Princeton offense requires it. Four of these guys were starters last year on a final 4 team and Ewing was our 6th man. They know how to play together.

People are taking a stance, in case you haven't noticed, that all the returning players in question are going to start all season long. And they seem taken aback that this "fact" can even be deated.

I'm basing this on watching every game of Sapp's Georgtown career and seeing flashes of brilliance and a significant improvement between his freshman and sophomore seasons.

I watched all those games too. And like virtually everyone else under III he has improved. But markedly? His outside shot is still unreliable (is his three point percentage a lot better than his first season? I don't know) and his his ability to create with the dribble is about the same. And I have to bring up again the concept of drive, draw and dish still appears to be something he hasn't grasped. He can throw a fine backdoor pass and throw a swell alley-oop and even at times deliver a nice crosscourt pass from the halfcourt line. But looking at game after game he rarely dribbles into the teeth of the defense, draw the attention of the defenders and find an open teammate under the basket for an easy hoop. Either he can't do this or he simply has a one-track mind when going to the hole. If he really shores up those areas then without a doubt the job is his. But if he doesn't and the frosh are as good as advertised, well, watch out.

I hope Sapp makes those improvements and keep that spot. But if his most reliable in-game shot remains his layup (and those opportunities become available more because of ball movement rather than Sapp's one-on-one ability) then you have to pardon me if I feel uncomfortable about that considering he is a freakin' guard. So I go back to what I wrote about him last year: if he improves that jumper and gets better at creating with the ball he has a chance to be a star. The guy already kicks butt on the A/T front and in terms of rebounding (for a guard).

I gotta get off this topic because its coming across as bashing of his game and that's not what I want to do (I'll save that for Joey Brown, Irvin Church, Eric Macoud, John Jaques and the rest!). I was simply pointing out that he's not a lock (not in my opinion at least) if those areas of concern aren't corrected.

My last word on this issue will be this: at the beginning of last season I think the majority felt that losing Ashanti Cook would be the major obstacle to overcome and many weren't sure if Sapp was up to the task (I will pat myself on the back now and mention that I never doubted he could fill in and get the job done----I was simply worried about depth). Well, he proved doubters wrong and had a fine, fine season. Now there may be some doubt concerning inexperienced guys like Wright and Freeman too. Understandable. Either way though I think the team will be more than okay.

[hoyastrong]

Obviously, barring total collapse or injury to one player, the 5 guys with most experience (Sapp, Wallace, Ewing, Summers, Hibbert) will start the first game. Even more obviously, this can and probably will change based on performance in the first few games, just as it did last year and always has. Does anyone remeber Marc Egerson starting several games? That didnt stop because he left, it stopped before then because he got out-performed. Shouldn't be much to discuss here.

[Filo]

hoyastrong said:

Even more obviously, this can and probably will change based on performance in the first few games, just as it did last year and always has. Does anyone remeber Marc Egerson starting several games? That didnt stop because he left, it stopped before then because he got out-performed. Shouldn't be much to discuss here.

I agree. But apparently this does not appear so obvious to some.

As far as Egerson, though, I don't have the same recollection as you -- I don't remember Egerson losing his starting job or being out-performed. He was really coming into his own when he left, and there was a lot of depressed posts around here about losing him, especially on defense.

[sleepy]

Egerson lost his starting job around the third game to Summers, i believe.
I believe that kids who start the first game are not guarenteed to start the rest of the season. That being said comparing Egerson's situation to Sapps isn't really fair. Egerson had little game experiece where as Sapp is coming back as a full year starter on a final four team. The reason i say that there is no guarentee is because we really don't know how effective Wright and Freeman will be next year.

[Eurostar]

Interesting facts: Jessie Sapp lead the team in assists last year (128) and was 2nd in total number of minutes played (Jeff played 17 more minutes than Jessie over the course of the season).

The kid is good. He's not Sleepy Floyd type good but hes good and JT3 knows it. The biggest knock on him in my opinion is outside shooting. He shot well in the beginning of the year and the end of the year. In the middle of the big east season around the Syracuse game he got into a funk where his shot started looking different. His shooting motion got jerky and the ball came out with a weird knuckly side spin on it. I actually saw a quote about this at around tournament time where they finally realized that his motion changed and worked with Jessie on it. Sure enough his shot looked better in the tournament and he shot better than his season average.

[GIGAFAN99]

sleepy said:

Egerson lost his starting job around the third game to Summers, i believe.
I believe that kids who start the first game are not guarenteed to start the rest of the season. That being said comparing Egerson's situation to Sapps isn't really fair. Egerson had little game experiece where as Sapp is coming back as a full year starter on a final four team. The reason i say that there is no guarentee is because we really don't know how effective Wright and Freeman will be next year.

This is what I'm saying. I don't think saying our returning starter from an incredibly successful team will start again is "treating him like Sleepy Floyd."

I do think casting this much doubt about him losing his spot is treating him like Marc Egerson (which as you point out is nowhere near an analogous situation).

There are no guarantees (of course, that's a kind of throwaway cliche) but to say he has to "remedy his drive and dish skills" or he's in trouble and then dismissing the work necessary and unknowns surrounding very talented freshmen as "if they're good as advertised" is a real stretch.

[lichoya68]

ok agree with alot but especially that patrick is GREAT off the bench and should be there and i think that freeman may start or cerrtainly really contribute by feb when it counts go hoyas good luck jeff on ward and upward go hoyas

[lichoya68]

can we start seven or eight just asking go hoyas WHO WILL TAKE THE TIP IS STILL A GREAT AND UNANSWERED QUESTION FOLKS WHO WIL TAKE THE TIP

[HoyaSinceBirth]

Haven't found his 3 pt stats for last year. But this year on the season he only made 30% fromt he 3 pt line. However he hit 36% during the NCAA's. If he keeps up those type of numbers I think he'll be fine. And just a clarification. the lay up should be everyone's most consitent shot. If by consitent you mean consitently made. If you made consitently taken then you have a valid point. But you should always make a higher percentage of your lay ups than you do three pointers. I mena one shot is signifigant'y easier.

[bowhoya]

Great discussion generated by this subject! I really enjoyed all of your comments. You all offered thoughtful and intelligent opinions. I can see that you are all great Hoya fans. However, you know as well as I know, we don't really know what the future will bring. We can predicate and speculate about what we think will happen, but the future is unknown. There are always surprises on the horizon. As the old expression goes, "That's why they play the game". I guess we will all find out what will really happen next season. Man, it's so much fun thinking about the upcoming season! Good luck and enjoy.