Top 10 Underachieving Programs

[TigerHoya]

sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2865999

[nathanhm]

I was shocked to see UCLA under the section of receiving votes. They just had back to back Final 4's. I know they used to win the thing every year but outside of Florida no team has had a better 2 year run.

[HeartAttackHoya]

take away the last two years, are we on this list? I wouldnt put UCLA as any more dissapointing as we had been and they are mentioned..

[HoyaSinceBirth]

sheesh you scared me i was afraid we were going to be on the list. It wouldn't make that much sense seeing as the past two years would have been included plus a sweet 16 in 01but there were defeintly plenty of underachieving years in there.

[nathanhm]

Looking at the ballots and only Jay Bilas had them listed and as his #10th most disappointing. I would like to hear his rationale behind that.

[SFHoya99]

I can't believe St. John's isn't #1. Fifth in all-time wins, biggest basketball school in NY City.

Normally, I'm for patience with a new coach, and I know the school/facilities aren't impressive, but I have to think some coaches would kill from day one there.

[theexorcist]

UCLA may have been listed because they're UCLA. And quite a few of those years before the final four years were relatively lean, especially by a school which was won the most NCAA basketball championships.

And all of those schools ranked above St. John's have massive football money. Really, it's all about money. If I had eight billion dollars to spend on a basketball program at a new division 1 school, it would get very good very fast.

The one that stunned me? Kentucky. Really, with the simple fact that they're Kentucky, they should have gone undefeated and won the national championship every single year. Obviously Tubby Smith was the problem there, because Kentucky fans are never wrong.

[Just Cos]

No Kentucky on the list or even recieving a vote? Also, why is Florida State at #2?

St. Johns (and all greater NYC schools for that matter) should be better positioned for recruits than they are.

[The Stig]

That's basically a list of schools that have the resources (money, facilities or potential for facilities, etc) but not the right people.

We're basically the opposite of that - relatively meager resources and fantastic people. So by the standards ESPN seems to be using, we're pretty substantial overachievers.

[SFHoya99]

Meager resources? I suppose, but monetary resources and people aren't the only advantages a school can have.

People make WAAAY too big a deal about facilities. And they also ignore that MCI is a draw even if our practice facility isn't.

As for our other non-people items: we are in a great conference; we are in a talent-rich area; we have a great history; we are a well-respected academic school; we are in a great city to be in.

The only thing we are missing is a fantastic practice facility and the money to travel in style and retain people. Those are big but we ain't sisters of the poor in non-monetary advantages.

[hoyasexy]

sfhoya99 said:

The only thing we are missing is a fantastic practice facility and the money to travel in style and retain people.

And enough money to be comfortable that our coach will remain with us indefinitely?

[The Stig]

sfhoya99 said:

Meager resources? I suppose, but monetary resources and people aren't the only advantages a school can have.

People make WAAAY too big a deal about facilities. And they also ignore that MCI is a draw even if our practice facility isn't.

As for our other non-people items: we are in a great conference; we are in a talent-rich area; we have a great history; we are a well-respected academic school; we are in a great city to be in.

The only thing we are missing is a fantastic practice facility and the money to travel in style and retain people. Those are big but we ain't sisters of the poor in non-monetary advantages.

Very true. I was just taking the financial angle since that's what ESPN seemed to be doing.

I meant for my post to be a compliment to the people in the Georgetown basketball program, not a facilities gripe.

[hoyalove4ever]

I hear you, SF, but to say that we are "only" missing money and resources is a pretty big cavaet.

It's not as easy as "just recruit the DC area." Dozens of serious basbetball schools recruit the DC area very hard. It is a very difficult area to lock down.

MCI/Verizon may be somewhat of a draw, but overall our arena situation is not really a draw. Recruits want to play in packed venues in front of hordes of loyal fans. GU is kind of weak in that department. The arena is only packed and the fan support is only loud when the team is really good- and even then the arena often isn't packed.

So, yes, GU does have some nice draws, but for a program from a major conference, it is lacking in many of the key stepping stones to consistent success.

[SFHoya99]

Hoyalove,

I'm not saying we don't need new facilities. I think I bitch once a month about how we're not fundraising for them.

But it is also apparent to me that facilities are a piece of the puzzle, both in terms of recruiting and success. As Rocky Balboa proved several times, just because you have better weights doesn't mean you'll win.

Georgetown has huge advantages, and Thompson has taken advantage of those. For those that care about academics, we're a good school. For those that want to stay home in DC, we've got it. We've got a great conference. We play in an NBA arena. Our players succeed in the NBA. And to some of these kids fathers, our coach's dad is more than just a coach, he was a heroic figure.

It's not easy, but we aren't this doomed little school because McD doesn't have marble columns and maple lockers.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't sell ourselves short. And that our coach is priority 1 and facilities 1A.

Just because we have some advantages doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get all advantages.

[hoyalove4ever]

Good points, SF. While I would not call our advantages "huge," I do agree that we have some strong selling points. My point is that 1) the advantages we have are not all that great, and 2) the problems that we have are very serious. Of course for now those in charge of the program have to work around those problems, and they have done nothing short of a stunning job in doing so.

To me, the issue is GU positioning itself for long-term success. I just don't see a lot from the school to set up a winning situation over the long term, and that worries me.

[RDF]

Upgrades help but one thing I find interesting is that in terms of being "behind" others in terms of facilities--GU is a lot like the Miami FB program--both are located in talent rich states/areas for talent in their sports, they are both private schools with smaller alumni in Metropolitan/Pro Sports cities, and both are considered among elite in their sports.

Two things come to mind about the facilities issue that tie in

1. Miami upgraded it's facilities through donations from PLAYERS--Willis McGahee, Edgerrin James, etc... all donated money to improve things--and James personally donated enough to build a weight room/upgrade those facilities.

2. Former Cane Jon Beason told a recruit on his visit who was mentioning how much nicer facilities were at other schools--replied "All that doesn't matter if you don't use them--it's about work ethic and getting things done--not how pretty things are".

Now I'm not saying GU doesn't need donations/help--in fact I find the situations are similar and seeing a former athlete step up and do something like this--The Patrick Ewing Weight Training Facility for instance would be ideal. However I love the response Beason gave--it's about what you do with things--not having them. If GU keeps local kids home in terms of recruiting--they'll be a perennial top 10/15 program--and that is far more important then having fancy weight rooms--you want kids who want to be at the program/school--not just choose you due to how facilities look. Hoyas just need to upgrade McDonough into a more state of art training center/practice facility and there is nothing wrong with playing at Verizon Center-in front of raucous home crowds--which come from getting great talent and WINNING ON THE COURT.

[GIGAFAN99]

St. Johns hasn't been all that good for 20 years. Pretty much had a good team in 1999-2000 and a couple OK teams in the early 90s. When is it underachievement as opposed to just a trend?

Yeah they're the only New York school in a major conference but that's all they have. It's a lousy school in Queens, they don't have a big budget, no football, and on and on.

St. Johns is actually the one I disagree with on that list. If you're in New York and you know you can go to any school in the Big East and play at the Garden, why go to St. Johns?

[hoyalove4ever]

It's great that we have an amazing coach who has done a great job with recruiting so far.

I just don't think that it's any sort of decent formula for success to require our coach to do an outstanding job on recruiting year after year, despite the above-referenced disadvantages.

Yes, IF we can look down DC recruiting, then we will be very good. But what about years when the local class is weak, or SU/ UConvicts/ UNC/ somebody else grabs up the best local recruits?

And if you are going to base everything on the coach pulling a rabbit out of his hat- then at least recognize his value and do the necessary things to retain him.

[DFW HOYA]

gigafan99 said:

Yeah they're the only New York school in a major conference but that's all they have. It's a lousy school in Queens, they don't have a big budget, no football, and on and on.

St. John's has an athletic budget of almost $25 million, even without football, which proved to be a mistake when they dropped it and six other sports in 2002.

[Just Cos]

hoyalove4ever said:

MCI/Verizon may be somewhat of a draw, but overall our arena situation is not really a draw. Recruits want to play in packed venues in front of hordes of loyal fans. GU is kind of weak in that department. The arena is only packed and the fan support is only loud when the team is really good- and even then the arena often isn't packed.

Without trying to get into a facilities discussion, how do you know this is what recruits want? Have you conducted a study? Did you ask a representative sample? Would recruits rather play in a half-filled professional arena or a filled on-campus arena? Show me the data.

Note: Of course I want improved facilities, just like everybody else on this board.