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Post by aussiehoya on Dec 4, 2004 12:42:38 GMT -5
Hoya hoops at the start of this season are as low as they've been. We've seen less and less wins, more and more heart-breaking losses as the esherick years progressed. Some have used the word "irrelevant" to describe the position of our program at this point. It may be hard for us to admit, but this year our school is not competing to make the NCAA Tournament, but just the Big East Tournament. We have no nationally televised games this year, for the first time in I don't how long. Things are bad right now.
But we have a new coach. We have new signs of life in a program, starting with player comments like Brandon Bowman saying he feels like he's been given a chance to be "born again" with JTIII. These new signs of life continue when we tie a school record for threes in our second game of the season, and then next trip out, we break this record. These signs of life are symbolized in an under-ranked, under-recruited freshman Jeff Green, who by all account plays with toughness and heart.
There is a tangible sense that we are beginning a Journey as true Hoya fans. The length of the journey that we make back to the NCAA Tournament, back into the rankings, back into relevance, is not known yet. But I want to tell you all that I feel privileged to be around to watch us claw and fight for EVERY game, get better, learn and improve as a team. The journey will be satisfying to watch and be a part of as a fan of the Hoyas. I wouldn't trade my hoyas for any perennial power because these other teams have already made their journey, and I wasn't around for it. The Hoyas are our team, and how satisfying, how good will it taste when we have our first big win, our first tourney bid in several years?
When the bandwagon finally rolls back into town, I'll smile inwardly as more of my friends begin to talk about Hoya hoops again, because I knew I was there for all those years when we truly sucked. There is something about being a fan that won't let me stop following this team. I love the ups and downs. I loved cringing every Ruben Boumtje received the ball in the post. I loved watching Braswell trying to work out how many ridiculous shots he could take before Esh got angry. I loved watching Sweets develop each year into one of the best power forwards in the nation. I loved the fact that Nat Burton was the last person who should've had the ball at the end of the game. Our Sweet 16 season was my freshman year - you should have been on campus during our undefeated run - it was literally buzzing. The whole campus talking - it was an amazing feeling.
So despite the rambling, and getting quite off the beaten track, I want to reiterate my faith in this team and this coach. The Journey is going to long and tough. But I want to be there for every minute of it.
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Nevada Hoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Dec 4, 2004 13:00:08 GMT -5
A leading candidate for POTY. ;D What you are describing describes my tenure at GU from 62-66. It wasn't until JTII arrived that our journey led us anywhere, except for a brief trip to the NIT in the early 70's.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 4, 2004 13:04:35 GMT -5
I think it's important to distinguish between a team getting better and a program getting better. The results on the latter are just as, if not more important.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 4, 2004 13:41:59 GMT -5
I think it's important to distinguish between a team getting better and a program getting better. The results on the latter are just as, if not more important. It is truly amazing to me how you were more positive during the Esherick years. Maybe it only seems that way because you tried to balance the negative posts at that time with some optimism and, now, things are positive, so you are taking us down a notch.
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Joe Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
You're watching Sports Night on CSC, so stick around.
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Post by Joe Hoya on Dec 4, 2004 13:54:53 GMT -5
He's right, though.
Everybody agreed that long-term success and stability were as (if not more) important as our short-term record. They just felt that with the former staff, our long-term success was in doubt.
Now we have someone who points out that basically not much has changed (that we know of) yet, so we can't judge if our program has gotten any better. In fact, it's only been three games, so we don't even know if our team has gotten better.
The coach said it himself - he wants to build a program, not a team. So I think even he would agree that there's a difference.
Stop trying to read into things to find hidden meanings/motives. Sometimes, you know, what you see is what they meant to say, plain and simple.
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Post by FrostbackHoya on Dec 4, 2004 14:52:24 GMT -5
Your posts lately have the feel of a guy who's twice divorced but in love -- doesn't want to believe it, so he keeps trying to remind himself of the bad things that could happen and things that'll have to change for it to be different this time.
Baby steps -- personally, I think one of the most important, tangible things that have happened to show a change in direction is that TEXTthey painted the coaches' offices.TEXT Why? Because Esh et al. never even thought it was needed, because they were comfortable where they were. III is a new direction, even if he does have a familiar name.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 4, 2004 15:01:57 GMT -5
He's right, though. Everybody agreed that long-term success and stability were as (if not more) important as our short-term record. They just felt that with the former staff, our long-term success was in doubt. Now we have someone who points out that basically not much has changed (that we know of) yet, so we can't judge if our program has gotten any better. In fact, it's only been three games, so we don't even know if our team has gotten better. The coach said it himself - he wants to build a program, not a team. So I think even he would agree that there's a difference. Stop trying to read into things to find hidden meanings/motives. Sometimes, you know, what you see is what they meant to say, plain and simple. Joe, admittedly, I agree with DFW's point. The problem is the messenger. In recent weeks, he has met enthusiasm with raining on the parade. After the Citadel game, for example, he went out of his way to point out disparities within the team in terms of offensive production. Was it true? Sure. Was it appropriate after, at the time, one of the best shooting performances in GU history? Probably not. There is a time and place for everything in other words. During the Esherick era, the time and place were right, and DeGioia agreed. Now, we have a new program and new direction, and, if there was ever a time to bury the hatchet, this is it.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 4, 2004 15:03:09 GMT -5
Your posts lately have the feel of a guy who's twice divorced but in love -- doesn't want to believe it, so he keeps trying to remind himself of the bad things that could happen and things that'll have to change for it to be different this time. Baby steps -- personally, I think one of the most important, tangible things that have happened to show a change in direction is that TEXTthey painted the coaches' offices. TEXT Why? Because Esh et al. never even thought it was needed, because they were comfortable where they were. III is a new direction, even if he does have a familiar name. They also refurbished the office space to the degree that Barker Davis commented how the offices are now a selling point for recruits et al.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Dec 4, 2004 15:11:45 GMT -5
I think DFW is just echoing the sentiments he made last year -- that GU failed to strike while the iron was hot last time (mid 80s and beyond), and can't just rest on the laurels of hiring a better coach now. If the iron does indeed get hot again (which I believe will happen), then the administration can't either sit back and do nothing constructive, or else get caught by surprise by success. They have to get plans in motion NOW to capitalize on our resurgence when it happens, in terms of getting enthusiasm and money together to build a "new" McDonough, among other program needs.
I did think the Citadel comments were a bit "off chord" myself, but in this matter, DFW has remained remarkably consistent. He was very concerned about the long-term during the Esh Era and he still is -- maybe even moreso now, because NOW the administration has no more excuses. If they think JT3 really can lead the team back to prominence, they have to get their act together as soon as possible. The lack of hiring a real team for Sports Info and Marketing and the lack of movement on a refurbished home arena are 2 very disturbing signs amidst the improvement in the team's play. JT3 himself said he needed institutional support. No time like the present to keep the pressure on to make sure he gets everything he needs to build something that will long outlast him and his father (and in the process, create an even better legacy for both of them at GU).
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FLHoya
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Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 4, 2004 15:53:24 GMT -5
Now, if we could only get all of the post-Generation Burton students on campus to think like aussiehoya is, we'd be solid.
To be honest, I think we're all on the same page to a greater degree than we think. I've been surprised, truth be told, at the extent to which most fans I hear and talk with are taking the long-term approach to this season. Here I thought the main emotional change after 3/16/04 would be a greater sense of optimism going into the season.
That's there for sure, but I have noticed a greater sense of patience and "wait-and-see", whether after the Temple loss or the Davidson win. Crowd reactions, our own board's receptiveness to differing opinions in game recaps (see the Citadel and Davidson threads, some linguistic fun aside). It's pretty much a 180 degree turn from the end of last year.
I do find it odd that somehow we've gotten into a mini-debate over "short-term" vs. "long term" in a thread entitled "The Journey". I think the implication is clear, and it has nothing to do with the song "Separate Ways".
Here's something aussiehoya said:
"But I want to tell you all that I feel privileged to be around to watch us claw and fight for EVERY game, get better, learn and improve as a team."
I think we can all agree with that. You can't blame anybody for getting excited about the performances of the previous game. But at the same time I think most people still believe watching this team learn and improve--bumps in the road and all--is their main focus.
It is not that I don't entirely agree with DFW's point--it's perfectly valid and it in no way to me suggests an attempt to rain on parades or balance opinion. Just a solid observation that there's more to one side to our journey.
But I also believe in the idea of every fan just doing their best at being involved where they can. Truth be told, I know little of what goes on in McDonough, nor am I in a position to. I don't go down to the basketball office once a week, watch them work for two hours, then write recaps about the paint. It's not that I think it's unimportant--I just believe I have a more important role to play devoting myself to being a good student section fan. I'd never pitch coming to games with the "building a program versus a team" approach--I'd use a lot of the stuff aussiehoya talks about.
Some more influential members or the board in this area, or some enterprising young turks can monitor the McDonough side of the journey if they want--and their efforts will be much appreciated by all.
But let's also keep on going with all of the fans who are truly taking the right approach to fandom this year and making it a much more pleasant place to be at the MCI Center and in the chat room this year (BELIEVE me on the first one especially).
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JimmyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Hoya fan, est. 1986
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Post by JimmyHoya on Dec 5, 2004 9:53:15 GMT -5
I've basically grown up with G'town basketball and for the first time in 13 (minus one or two) seasons, I am chearing because I'm excited about their play, not chearing because they didn't screw up.
It's been really, really refreshing.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 5, 2004 10:19:16 GMT -5
It is truly amazing to me how you were more positive during the Esherick years. Maybe it only seems that way because you tried to balance the negative posts at that time with some optimism and, now, things are positive, so you are taking us down a notch. What are you talking about Jersey? DFW has been remarkably focused on the process of building a stronger PROGRAM, from administrative and institutional support to a new arena to everything else down to nuts and bolts. More positive? Is that because he didn't sign off all his posts by calling for Esherick's head? His statement is quite consistent with those he has posted for several years. On court success is great, but sustained success will only come from building the OFF court parts of the process. In calling for that, DFW has been remarkably consistent. Maybe you should run through his 'Crossroads' feature again: www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/crossroads_1.htmI think he sees the past failure to capitalize on the success years of JT (by building a lot of the things the program does not have now) as a great loss and wants to keep pressure and focus on those issues now so as not to lose sight of them as the chance comes our way again. I haven't gone back and read the 'post-Citadel' game comments that others have mentioned so I can't comment on those in this context. However, your response to his comment in this thread puzzles me.
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Post by chinatownfanclub on Dec 5, 2004 20:55:25 GMT -5
We need to be realistic about the progress of such things as a new McDonough. There are a multitude of construction projects on the horizon for the university including the new multi-purpose stadium and the new business school. While there is certainly a plan in the works for a mcdonough renovation, it is at best 20 yrs down the road. There are many issues that need to be addressed (parking, public transit) before an on-campus arena would be feasible not to mention the fact that it would require ANC approval (not exactly friendly to the recent university expansion). As far as your shots at the sports marketing and info team I think it is unfair at best. You can only do so much with the product you are provided and the resources you have to work with to accomplish your goals. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement in those depts, but we need to be realistic about the tools and resources they have to get the job done. Its not like they are working w/ an incredible budget.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Dec 5, 2004 21:50:11 GMT -5
Obviously an on campus arena is way down the road, but people want this to be thought about and planned now so that it can be built in 10, 15, 20 years. We dont want to wait 20 years and then start thinking about it, which would probably result in it taking another 10-15 years on top of that before anything happens.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 5, 2004 22:07:17 GMT -5
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 5, 2004 22:34:21 GMT -5
DFW, I do see your larger point that we need long term commitments to a McDonough renovation and begin the process now to bring that about in the future.
At the same time, there are some things that have already been done to improve the team: (1) Change to Jordan Brand. This increases the cache and prestige of the program. (2) Renovation of McDonough offices. This increases the selling ability and esteem of the program.
So, my point is that, while the long term reforms that you mention are important, we should not overlook what can be done today to improve the program. (Obviously, renovating McDonough cannot be done today, as it requires all sorts of hoops and hurdles.)
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 5, 2004 22:39:56 GMT -5
What are you talking about Jersey? DFW has been remarkably focused on the process of building a stronger PROGRAM, from administrative and institutional support to a new arena to everything else down to nuts and bolts. More positive? Is that because he didn't sign off all his posts by calling for Esherick's head? His statement is quite consistent with those he has posted for several years. On court success is great, but sustained success will only come from building the OFF court parts of the process. In calling for that, DFW has been remarkably consistent. Maybe you should run through his 'Crossroads' feature again: www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/crossroads_1.htmI think he sees the past failure to capitalize on the success years of JT (by building a lot of the things the program does not have now) as a great loss and wants to keep pressure and focus on those issues now so as not to lose sight of them as the chance comes our way again. I haven't gone back and read the 'post-Citadel' game comments that others have mentioned so I can't comment on those in this context. However, your response to his comment in this thread puzzles me. Well, the problem is that DFW's position does not necessarily lead to a strong program. If certain folks launched an all out war for renovating McDonough now, this may bring about a major institutional fight that could cause certain fundamental questions about the program to be raised. As such, there need to be a few changes in McDonough that build confidence in the new regime before it can go ahead with tackling some of the more major questions and problems. So, in that sense, I can see how DFW's vision could hurt the program insofar as it could lead to its delegitimization within the GU community. In my estimation, his viewpoint and distinction between team and program is limited. During Esherick's tenure, one of his major arguments was that we should keep Esherick because we will nonetheless have all of these institutional factors that inhibit our having a good program in spite of the coach. That was the argument. Nevermind what Wake Forest has done with like on-campus facilities and off-campus arrangements. Nevermind what GU itself did in the early JT2 years. Nevermind what Syracuse did before it constructed the Carrier Dome. In making this argument, he failed to see how canning Esherick would go a long way toward improving the program. Student support has increased already. The press, typically hostile to GU, has at least granted our program "a pass" for the time being. We have hope and direction. Not bad for 6 months on the job... I am well aware of the ins and outs of this issue and read DFW's column with great interest. The problem is that the dynamics have changed to some degree such that it may be more worthwhile to launch the fight in a few years time. Don't get me wrong. I would love to have a functional on-campus arena, but (i) it is not going to be addressed in the next few years and (ii) the issue itself could derail the program if it is not addressed tactfully. I think, to some extent, JT3's outlook is what we should all take. For this young program, the focus should be on improving today.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 5, 2004 22:59:20 GMT -5
Let's put to rest all this talk about Esh. That was soo last year, and we have our new guy, JT III now, so let's forget about Esh, as we all want to do.
Chinatown's post about the on-campus arena being at least twenty years away frightens me. Georgetown athletic facilities improvement in general should be a top University priority, in my opinion, especially with regards to basketball. I agree that the McDonough situation is not going to improve in the next year or two, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep putting pressure on the administration to address the issue. However, I think this year specifically and probably next year as well we should hold off on any mass protests or related activities for this cause, because JT III's attempt to turn around the program right now is FAR more important.
However, I think maybe a year or two from now, when we re-assess the state of the overall program in light of what JT III has been able to do, it would be an opportune time to start a petition with signatures from all over the University community to get McDonough renovated. I know a lot of people would support it, and I think it would send a HUGE message to the athletic department and administration.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 5, 2004 23:09:20 GMT -5
Let's put to rest all this talk about Esh. That was soo last year, and we have our new guy, JT III now, so let's forget about Esh, as we all want to do. Chinatown's post about the on-campus arena being at least twenty years away frightens me. Georgetown athletic facilities improvement in general should be a top University priority, in my opinion, especially with regards to basketball. I agree that the McDonough situation is not going to improve in the next year or two, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep putting pressure on the administration to address the issue. However, I think this year specifically and probably next year as well we should hold off on any mass protests or related activities for this cause, because JT III's attempt to turn around the program right now is FAR more important. However, I think maybe a year or two from now, when we re-assess the state of the overall program in light of what JT III has been able to do, it would be an opportune time to start a petition with signatures from all over the University community to get McDonough renovated. I know a lot of people would support it, and I think it would send a HUGE message to the athletic department and administration. That's exactly the point. If somehow we can do short term things, like reform HB, improve marketing, improve SID in two years, we will be a better program. Then, after a few years, the use of a mass petition and other such tactics could go a long way in terms of the McDonough renovations.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 5, 2004 23:48:54 GMT -5
During Esherick's tenure, one of his major arguments was that we should keep Esherick because we will nonetheless have all of these institutional factors that inhibit our having a good program in spite of the coach. That was the argument. ...In making this argument, he failed to see how canning Esherick would go a long way toward improving the program. I'll let DFW speak for himself, but I believe you are mischaracterizing his position. I don't believe he argued to keep Esherick. I think his point was more that any coach would have the same major institutional hurdles to overcome. Short term improvements are welcome IMO. But they are only that and, while great, shouldn't take focus away from long term goals. CAHoya007: A petition is one thing. The reality is that a renovated or new McDonough will never happen without backers stepping up to the plate with big time cash.
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