GUHoyas.com Game Highlights

[FLHoya]

In the "Non-game observations" part of my recap of the Temple game, I talked about the interesting relationship I've observed over four+ years in the student section between the zealous fight until the end die hards who cheer every play even when we're down 20, and the more cynical types who are already cursing to themselves with 10 minutes to go b/c of something "Bad Brandon" did.

Now I'm not characterizing anyone discussing in this thread as either. I merely point this out as an example of the vastly different ways two people can perceive or interpret the same game. Heck, talk to the people who sat to my left and my right at the Temple game and I think you'll discover we differed significantly on how the game was going (and a lot of THAT had to do with Brandon also.) Heck, I'm always surprised more people don't take issue with my interpretations of the games.

I didn't go to the Citadel game--I'm at home on thanksgiving break. But I read the observations that are the current subject of discussion. Completely different tone and frame of reference than my Temple recap, but I could definitely follow everything and that could have easily been applied to the team's performance against Temple.

I've just decided to approach the season from a different perspective. I'm not going for predictions about records, standings, post-season junk. Don't want a frame of reference for past teams. I just want to watch the kids play and see how this develops over time. I spent way more time looking at what I think each player could develop into than deconstructing how they actually did last Monday.

So I'm not so concerned about the offense not clicking yet, or about Roy Hibbert getting pushed around on defense, or Brandon seeming unstructured.

What I am looking at are the times when I do see people making smart cuts away from the ball, when Roy makes a nice post move or plays solid defense, or when our ball movement creates open threes for guys like Brandon.

Because in time, we will develop a better motion offense, Dancin' Roy will be better than Constantin Popa (I swear), and Brandon will hit those three pointers--as will other guys, and that ball movement will look a lot better.

We do have a young, inexperienced team, that in fairness probably isn't as good as a lot of the past 25 teams. But I think we have an interest in waiting a little and seeing if the February 2005 Hoyas are better than the November 2004 ones. I think they will be.

But please keep all the perspectives from all the generations of Hoya fans coming. Although for my money, no player will EVER be as clutch as Nathaniel Burton, no center so pleasantly mechanical as Ruben, no guard so unclutch with the big shot as Anthony Perry, no fan more creative than the kid who dressed up like a cop for Troy Murphy, no layup line song better than "I Just Wanna Love U," and no generation of Hoya fans better than your own.

[jerseyhoya34]

FLHoya said:

In the "Non-game observations" part of my recap of the Temple game, I talked about the interesting relationship I've observed over four+ years in the student section between the zealous fight until the end die hards who cheer every play even when we're down 20, and the more cynical types who are already cursing to themselves with 10 minutes to go b/c of something "Bad Brandon" did.

Now I'm not characterizing anyone discussing in this thread as either. I merely point this out as an example of the vastly different ways two people can perceive or interpret the same game. Heck, talk to the people who sat to my left and my right at the Temple game and I think you'll discover we differed significantly on how the game was going (and a lot of THAT had to do with Brandon also.) Heck, I'm always surprised more people don't take issue with my interpretations of the games.

I didn't go to the Citadel game--I'm at home on thanksgiving break. But I read the observations that are the current subject of discussion. Completely different tone and frame of reference than my Temple recap, but I could definitely follow everything and that could have easily been applied to the team's performance against Temple.

I've just decided to approach the season from a different perspective. I'm not going for predictions about records, standings, post-season junk. Don't want a frame of reference for past teams. I just want to watch the kids play and see how this develops over time. I spent way more time looking at what I think each player could develop into than deconstructing how they actually did last Monday.

So I'm not so concerned about the offense not clicking yet, or about Roy Hibbert getting pushed around on defense, or Brandon seeming unstructured.

What I am looking at are the times when I do see people making smart cuts away from the ball, when Roy makes a nice post move or plays solid defense, or when our ball movement creates open threes for guys like Brandon.

Because in time, we will develop a better motion offense, Dancin' Roy will be better than Constantin Popa (I swear), and Brandon will hit those three pointers--as will other guys, and that ball movement will look a lot better.

We do have a young, inexperienced team, that in fairness probably isn't as good as a lot of the past 25 teams. But I think we have an interest in waiting a little and seeing if the February 2005 Hoyas are better than the November 2004 ones. I think they will be.

But please keep all the perspectives from all the generations of Hoya fans coming. Although for my money, no player will EVER be as clutch as Nathaniel Burton, no center so pleasantly mechanical as Ruben, no guard so unclutch with the big shot as Anthony Perry, no fan more creative than the kid who dressed up like a cop for Troy Murphy, no layup line song better than "I Just Wanna Love U," and no generation of Hoya fans better than your own.

The turkey must have been good. Excellent post!

I sympathize with your comments about analyzing this team. In that spirit, on Friday, I found myself applauding many developments, such as Ashanti's shooting, but, at the same time, cursing other things under my breath (If they were audible, chances are that YB could have heard them across the arena with the crowd we had). No one is saying or has said that this season would be easy, and I think we should all recognize that moving forward.

[DanMcQ]

GUHoya2007 said:

Oh, ok Dan. Questioning what Roy Hibbert is doing in a Georgetown uniform and saying this is the worst team ever at Georgetown is exactly the same as saying that the current team's players lack the talent level of the Hoya teams of the 80's and early 90's.

Can't someone simply say that rather than insulting Roy like that and making blatantly ridiculous statements?

007 - I don't agree that it's the "worst team ever at Georgetown." I also did not say it was "exactly the same" to make the comparison you make.

Perhaps hoya8 statements weren't worded as carefully as they could have been, but to call his observations "blatantly ridiculous" is also a bit over the top. Check the foundation of hoya8's initial post: he said "as a former season ticket holder this was my first game back in a long while." He came expecting Patrick Ewing; he saw Roy Hibbert. His statement was "one must ponder, what is he doing in a georgetown uniform". I interpreted that pretty much as a comment directed at the expectation of a GU center arriving at the Ewing-Mourning-etc freshman level. Roy is clearly not there yet and is a work in progress. Although I haven't seen him play, what I hear from those who have leads me to think he has potential, you clearly do as well. He's not Pat Ewing nor is he Alonzo Mourning at the same point in their careers. As FLHoya puts it quite well, a lot of how you view this year's team depends on your perspective.

Personally I'm looking for player development and team progress. Where hoya8 does have a point though is that in order to eventually get back to national prominence, the player talent level has to increase. Again, I think that was his main point. Frankly I agree with him on that one.

[hoyanick]

Wow...Quite the controversy on the board!

I am putting aside my ridiculous amounts of post-Thanksgiving work to write this post because I truly feel that Hoya8 is being indefensibly pessimistic.

First of all, in hindsight, there was no reasonable reason to believe we would win the Temple game. They look prepared to challenge for a NCAA-64 birth, and they had a couple of exhibitions/games under their belts already. The Hoyas, on the other hand, were playing with 15 freshman, as JTIII has pointed out - all new to the system, most new to each other, and some new to college basketball. For us to stay close to such an established program was in itself a testament to the raw talent some of our freshman have and the potential the team has in general.

Hoya8, how much negativity can you bring from a game in which the Hoyas doubled up the opponent? Surely Citadel made us look good in some ways? If you have only seen the Citadel game this year, it seems unlikely that you could possibly find so much to criticize. I feel like you had some preconceptions going into to this game. And, if you had seen the Temple game, you would know that Hibbert actually did make a spin move through the lane to dunk it home. So it is possible for big Roy to display some athleticism.

I can tell you, from my attendance at the Temple game, that our offense is a work in progress, but already an improvement over Escherick's system. The thing I am more worried about right now is our ability to guard talented backcourts. But I have faith that the offense will be serviceable by the time we enter Big East play.

You also said that: "Players are paid to perform and if they perform well they leave school for the pros with no reimbursement to the school for the investment it has made in them. Has Allen Iverson or Mike Sweetney repaid their scholarships as terms of leaving school?". It is unfortunate that players leave school early, but just because they stop scoring points for the Hoyas doesn't mean they stop helping the program. In fact, VISIBILITY is greatly improved when an AI or a Sweetney enter the NBA. Kids all over the country know that Philly's 6'1" guard is out of GEORGETOWN.


Cheer up Hoya8, times are a'changin around here on the hilltop. Perhaps if you had attended a game last year you would have noticed the differences.

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

I'm going to reply as a fan and not as an Admin.....

Hoya8, you must have been away for a while because what you perceived as lack of offensive movement/intelligence has been characteristic of the GU offensive set (such as it has been) since JT Jr. was coaching in the early 90s (or perhaps even earlier!!). But as Jersey34 has so accurately pointed out many times, it's tough run a motion/weave/cut/pick and roll offense against a zone, which has what the GU offense has faced for 80 minutes of the season to date!!

I've followed this team since the late 70s (not as long as you have!) and believe me, I feel your pain (don't mean to sound like a more famous GU alum!)!! The decline has been long and, counter to what many blithely post, was not just attributable to Esherick since it long pre-dated his surprise ascendance to the head coaching post. But how productive is it to use language such as "one wonder if Player X belongs in a GU uniform?" Did Godwin Owinje belong in a GU uniform? Vladmir Bosanac? Elvado Smith? Clifton Dairsow? Victor Morris? Pascal Fleury? Apparently they did since the staff extended them scholarships and many of them obtained their degrees. Yet the player you're so willing to slam arguably has already been more productive than them in his first two games?! And is doing so at barely 18 years of age.

You claimed to be a coach. Have you ever told any of your players they weren't fit to wear the uniform you provided them? In public? To their faces? If you did, how effective was it as a motivational tool?? You wish to perceive college basketball at GU as a business and that's supposedly a "realistic" view of the way it is at GU. I would also hope that GU still aspires to educate these young men on and off the court in a way that's consistent with the Jesuit philosophy of education, which may or may not harmonize with a singularly "businessed" focus.

In short, ease up a little on the venom, especially as it's directed at young men. Otherwise, it really does unfortunately portray you as the stereotypical bitter old man.....

[YB]

I agree with WBH.

Why should anyone have shown up expecting Patrick Ewing??? No one with any real knowledge of the squad was expecting that. We are 2- count 'em, 2-games inot a new season. New coach. 8 Freshmen/Sophs. And you expect the '84 Hoyas just because there's a new coach?

Lighten up fellas. Gotta give them a chance to get to know each other and develop the young guys and learn the offense before they get better.

The talent may not yet be championship-calibre, but it's still better than last year, or for that matter any team after 97 except the '01 team.

As for things going badly after 1988 recruiting, keep in mind the following NBA players since then: Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe, Othella, Jerome Williams, Jaren Jackson, Allen Iverson, Jahidi White, Don Reid, Mike Sweetney, Ruben B-B.

Not as many the last few years, but the '95 team had 5 future NBA players. So don't say JT2 didn't recruit. Maybe not as much after 1996, but he did recruit.

But as for this team, temper the unrealistic exp[ectations. Let's try not to be the worst of NCAA fans and alums who scream "kill the coach, kill the admin, fire the players" after every loss or when these kids make mistakes. Be better than that.

Support these young guys as they develop. Be a fan, not a louse. They aren't paid- they'd get paid more at a reasonable internship than they get for going to GU. They'd certainly get paid more for going to a place like Kansas, Syracuse, or Maryland.

Just keep a little perspective, that's all.

[nodak89]

FWIW, I'll chime in...

I was very disappointed at first by the Temple loss. My 1985-9 oldthink told me it was completely unacceptable to lose that game. I think we lost a total of 28 games in those 4 years.

But, you know what? I took that dissapointment as a good thing. Last year when we just kept on losing and losing, after awhile it didn't bug me anymore. That was a bad sign. Not only was Georgetown "irrelevant" nationally, it was starting to get that way to me personally.

This year, even if we don't win anymore games than last year, I am excited because Georgetown Basketball matters to me. It's not irrelevant to me. Who'da thunk I'd obsess over the Citadel, let alone the Kenner?

I'm in because Georgetown and Georgetown Basketball matter to me.

Here's hoping JT3 will make it relevent to everyone else. I can see signs that make me hope. Big Roy and Jeff Green, to name two. All our passionate student posters, for another.

Let's remember that "We are Gerogetown!"
Not only that, I realize that....
"I am Georgetown!"

[DanMcQ]

YB said:

Let's try not to be the worst of NCAA fans and alums who scream "kill the coach, kill the admin, fire the players" after every loss or when these kids make mistakes. Be better than that. ... Be a fan, not a louse.

YB - frankly, I agree with you and WBH that this team and the players on it need time to develop and be judged on their own merits. Hoya8 made some valid points about the talent level on this team, albeit from a shaky position since he admitted he stopped watching the team for an undetermined time. He didn't word it in the best way - but also said he meant nothing personal by his comments.

Your comment I quoted above seems a little bit of a double standard to me: I tried to encourage that approach last year but was vilified as a pollyanna who was supposedly defending the coach everyone hated (which was not my point at all). I am not saying you did this, but how is it OK to personally disparage the former coach and his family but suddenly not OK to voice criticism this year?

Perspective is good advice for those with both viewpoints about this team. It remains to be seen just how good or bad this year's team is. You're right: 2 games is far too early to tell.

[YB]

Dan- I, at no point last year, attacked the coach. And believe me, it took some restraint.

Instead, I organized a rally to support the program, got fans and alums and the GU admin interested again.

Productive actions. Not bitter criticism.

I have a problem with people who attack 18 and 19 year old kids on a chat board.

These kids are not paid. They have an opportunity, and they should (and usually do) make the best of it- but to attack them is just below the belt, I feel.

I just feel that, at some point, we have to stop being critical and start pushing and working for this program to be fully functional again. It's going to take showing up at every game you can. It's going to take giving money to the program and to GU. It's going to take vocal support because at some point, you don't have a voice if you don't invest yourself in it.

We have lots of lawyers as alums.... but still, we have to stop talking and start walking. If we- the most loyal and interested- can't do that for our beloved Hoyas, who can?

[DanMcQ]

YB said:

Dan- I, at no point last year, attacked the coach.

Please note I made a point to say you were not someone who did this. I'm just saying it's OK to criticise the coach, past or current, as long as it is substantive and not personally vindictive. You can go overboard in each direction.

I have a problem with people who attack 18 and 19 year old kids on a chat board.

You and me both. I'm with you in terms of support for the team. As DFW said though, there are quite a few people out there who need to be brought back into the fold. I and the other moderators discussed what to do about this thread. We left the comment up, partly because the intent behind it was expressed more clearly in subsequent posts. It has also engendered some good discussion and your and others posts a bit of policing at the same time. But believe me, it was definitely bumping the line and if we felt it went over, we'd deal with it.

[jerseyhoya34]

DanMcQ said:

Your comment I quoted above seems a little bit of a double standard to me: I tried to encourage that approach last year but was vilified as a pollyanna who was supposedly defending the coach everyone hated (which was not my point at all). I am not saying you did this, but how is it OK to personally disparage the former coach and his family but suddenly not OK to voice criticism this year?

I think there are major differences between this year and last such that many criticisms that were valid last year are not so this year. Esherick had enough time to show us something in terms of his coaching ability, but he frankly didn't do so and only benefitted to the extent that he could ride JT2's coattails for a couple of years.

In terms of this year, JT3 elected to be here, but, at the same time, he has been dealt players (save Wallace) who were not of his own choosing and has been forced to teach some basic offensive and defensive skills that Esherick didn't teach or didn't teach well. Most other programs start with this as a basis and have this in the bag before Midnight Madness, but our preseason was of a distinctively different quality.

Again, if we improve every day, this season is a success to some degree. YB gets it right when he says that this is the on-the-court measure by which to judge our season.

[DanMcQ]

JerseyHoya34 said:

I think there are major differences between this year and last such that many criticisms that were valid last year are not so this year. Esherick had enough time to show us something in terms of his coaching ability, but he frankly didn't do so and only benefitted to the extent that he could ride JT2's coattails for a couple of years.

In terms of this year, JT3 elected to be here, but, at the same time, he has been dealt players (save Wallace) who were not of his own choosing and has been forced to teach some basic offensive and defensive skills that Esherick didn't teach or didn't teach well. Most other programs start with this as a basis and have this in the bag before Midnight Madness, but our preseason was of a distinctively different quality.

Again, if we improve every day, this season is a success to some degree. YB gets it right when he says that this is the on-the-court measure by which to judge our season.

Agreed regarding this year and last year being different. I also agree that Esherick failed to demonstrate the coaching acumen necessary to get the job done, on many levels. I agreed with that view last year, I didn't agree with the level of personal vitriol directed at him. That said, while I support JTIII and the team, I don't think that anyone who expresses any criticism of the team here should automatically get their head handed to them in the interest of team solidarity. I expect JTIII, given his track record, will make the most out of what was left for him. I also expect that in order to raise the program back up to a more competitive level, he's going to need to bring in better players. That's not a knock on the ones that are here - it's a reality if we want to compete in the Big East.

[the_way]

I find it funny how we can be so sensitive at times when all we are doing are expressing viewpoints and opinions. Do we have a great team, no. Are we going to win the national championship this year, highly unlikely. I totally agree with DanMcQ on this one. I myself, along with a few others on this board, were heavily (thats an understatement) critcized for supporting and Esherick and his regime. Now that JTIII is here, and someone criticizes the team, they are villified for it. I think as a fan you are entitled to criticize the team. At the same time, what was said about the players this year, do not even compare to the nasty comments that were made about Craig Esherick and the team last year on this board, let alone the campus protests that sparked his firing. If we are going to be fair, lets be fair. The only agenda that should be pushed, is supporting the G'town program. Its okay to criticize, I think.

Yes Esherick did a poor job coaching and recruiting these last few years, and what we have for a team is not much. There is nothing wrong in saying that. It is going to take time. I think at the end of the year we will have improved. It may not be improvement in terms of wins and lossess, but in terms of culture of the program. What we have had these last several years has been losing basketball, and it takes time to build a winner not just in terms of talent, and fundamentals, but most importantly attitude. That goes for us fans too. We have some good recruits coming on the way. Rome wasn't built in a day. We just have to be patient, and positive. I live for the day when we can make that terd Calhoun and his UCONN huskies squirm like he did in the late 80's and early 90's as well as Syracuse. Heck, we still beat Syracuse a couple of times when Esherick was here. But these things will take time. Don't worry guys, I think are program is in good hands, with the right leadership.

[GUHoya07]

the_way said:

let alone the campus protests that sparked his firing.

Why do people still fail to understand that the rally was never about firing Esherick. Maybe the admin responded to it that way, but our goals were always to get a commitment from the university to provide the basketball program with many things that it needs to succeed. In retrospect they have probably ignored most of the issues we brought up in that meeting, and they will have to be addressed again. However, our goal was never to get Esherick fired.

[jerseyhoya34]

Part of the reason for the_way's apparent misunderstanding of the rally was that firing Esherick and improving the basketball program were one in the same, although improving the program requires much more than Esherick's firing.

[YB]

Tha Rally was never about firing Esh, period. Read the press releases, read the documents.

For the record, I was pretty critical of those who harshly criticized Esh. I did not see it as terribly productive when there was much more to be done to improve the program.

[the_way]

Well, ehem, all that aside, I think our program will do fine. I just hope the fanbase will give the support to the team. I think Jeff Green will be bright spot for the team. Roy Hibbert will be up and down this year I think. I think JTIII needs to get this team to play solid defense to be competitive, because we have no shooters on this team. We have some guys who could score, but not shooters. We haven't had a "real" shooter, since Reggie Williams. That was 1987.

[SFHoya99]

DFW said:

I'd cut the new poster some slack, 07 and YB.

I know a fair share of older alumni that are just fit to be tied with the style of play the team has run over the past 10 years (from Iverson going forward), devoid of any set plays or defensive patterns. Some very good friends of mine (who went to their share of Big East and NCAA tournament games over the years) simply won't watch the team anymore because of the poor play. If the above account is accurate, I'm sorry to hear that the 04-05 team is exhibiting similar tendencies.

I think there was some hopeful anticipation that a Princeton style would be initiated this year to alleviate the undiscliplined style of play associated with recent Georgetown teams. At least from the radio reports, it does not appear that a motion offense is even on the table, which is unfortunate. Maybe the team doesn't respond to it, or maybe the skill-set just isn't there for it.

I thought it was us young folk that were supposed to be impatient? Judging an entire coaching staff, system and group of players after six weeks of two hour practices and two whole games is being SEC-football-booster-impatient.

And I think he deserves to be called out on his comments on Roy Hibbert. In 36 minutes, Roy has put up what, like 19 pts, 16 boards and 4 blocks? If he's slow, which he may be, there's also some good to be said.

And it's a bit ludicrous to say this is the worst team ever as well.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

SFHoya99 said:

And I think he deserves to be called out on his comments on Roy Hibbert. In 36 minutes, Roy has put up what, like 19 pts, 16 boards and 4 blocks? If he's slow, which he may be, there's also some good to be said.

5 blocks, actually. ;D

And hopefully another good stat line to be added this evening. Along with (fingers crossed) a hard fought W.

[HOYAPLAYA]

SFHoya99 said:

And I think he deserves to be called out on his comments on Roy Hibbert. In 36 minutes, Roy has put up what, like 19 pts, 16 boards and 4 blocks? If he's slow, which he may be, there's also some good to be said.

And it's a bit ludicrous to say this is the worst team ever as well.

When you look at it that way, Roy's numbers are pretty damn impressive for a 7 foot plus freshman. Especially when you consider his better numbers were put up against a Temple team that had size and talent. Let's all be realistic, most 7 foot freshman don't sniff the floor. Maybe if our team was better, the same could be said about Roy. Since I believe we are headed toward brighter days within the next few years, I'm glad to see him get the game experience and have some success to build his confidence.