Tony Bethel article about his transfer at ESPN.com

[GUHoya07]

The theme of the day on the basketball page appears to be transfers and there is an article on Tony Bethel. It's a good read and very interesting, particularly comments like this:

"Bethel, who is from nearby Ft. Washington, Md., said he loved Georgetown but 'didn't feel like I was getting better on the court.' "

"There was no access at Georgetown," Bethel said of getting in to work out at McDonough Gym during off hours. "It wasn't open 24 hours. Here you can get your workout 24 hours a day. It was predicted that it [the defections at Georgetown] were going to happen and that was one of my reasons for leaving. I didn't feel like the program was making people better. I picked N.C. State because of Herb Sendek and Julius Hodge."

sports.espn.go.com/ncb/preview2004/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=1921994

[CAHoya07]

Interesting. I thought after reading this article I'd be filled with hate for the guy, with words like "traitor" and "deserter" filling my mind. And while they still do, I suppose he had his reasons. It just illustrates the internal disaster of the entire program under the Esherick regime, and why firing him was so absolutely necessary.

This also shows how vitally important it is for JT III to build a strong, respected program again from the ground up. So far, he seems to be doing a pretty good job at doing that, and we haven't even played a game yet.

[Joe Hoya]

Or maybe it just shows we need to hire people to keep McD open 24/7.

[ahoya3]

The fact of the matter is that we still have huge problems with the issues of facilities, home court and fan support which will not change with the enthusiasm of JTIII

[DFW HOYA]

CAHoya07 said:

It just illustrates the internal disaster of the entire program under the Esherick regime, and why firing him was so absolutely necessary.

To outsiders, a 24/7 gym access doesn't seem like much, but it speaks to how one player saw Georgetown as essentially not making the kind of time commitment to student-athletes that other schools did.

I have long contended, amidst some dispute on this board, that Craig Esherick was more a symptom of the larger problems with the program than the root cause. Agreed that Craig's wounds were self-inflicted, but don't miss the point that as it relates to the program itself, many of the root issues are still there six months later and will threaten to hamper Coach Thompson's ability to be successful going forward.

Ahoya3 is RIGHT ON TARGET with some of what men's basketball is up against, and it will take a commitment at the highest levels of this University to remedy this before it it passes a point of no return.

[jerseyhoya34]

I agree to some extent with DFW on this one, but taken together, all of these problems are not sufficient to bring the program down. JT2, in spite of all of the lack of support, built a pretty good program under the circumstances.

I think we still have to wait and see to some degree with respect to Administration support for the hoops program. A recent article suggested that JT3 held out in the negotiations to extract concessions from Healy 2 et al. with respect to some of the administrative issues.

The facilities issues are not going away, but take them in context. Cameron Indoor is only marginally better as a college basketball arena by virtue of the fact that it has more seating capacity. By ACC standards, it is undersized and inadequate. However, they have a coach who is willing to look past it instead of passing the buck.

That, my friends, was Esherick's failing. It was always someone else's fault. When the going got tough in Sweetney's last season, we had a tirade. After last season, he and members of his family attacked fans verbally and physically. Unfortunately, the buck stopped to a large extent on his doorstep. The result was that he was never able, it seems, to launch an effective fight within the Administration to get some concessions or additional support. It may have also had to do with his lack of credibility in his later years.

Regardless, I think there may be some new life under JT3 in terms of administrative support. Not all of it will show up in a renovated gym or whatever, but it may happen in other ways.

I should note that Bethel's quotes seem to suggest that the intraprogram issues were fairly prominent in his decision-making and reflect pretty observable facts. Not many in the later Esherick years got better on the court or at least showed signs that they were exceeding expectations. That's not entirely the players' fault. On the other site, the moderators have also spoken to Bethel, and their information also seems to suggest that Bethel had problems with the program itself rather than the structural issues like administrative support and facilities.

[Joe Hoya]

Jersey, it sounds like you're separating "the program itself" from those "structural issues".

You simply can't do that. To have a productive team on the court, it has to start at the top, with the Athletic Department AND University administrations. It seems like Coach Thompson, if he did in fact hold out over support issues or whatever, has his head on straight in regards to this. He said he wants to have a "program" and not just a "team". When the suits upstairs hang the coaches and players out to dry, you're simply left with a "team". We'll have to wait and see what develops in regards to the "improvements" in the program that we've all discussed. Somehow, I don't think a new paint job in McDonough is the right start.

[MCIGuy]

That, my friends, was Esherick's failing. It was always someone else's fault. When the going got tough in Sweetney's last season, we had a tirade. After last season, he and members of his family attacked fans verbally and physically. Unfortunately, the buck stopped to a large extent on his doorstep. The result was that he was never able, it seems, to launch an effective fight within the Administration to get some concessions or additional support. It may have also had to do with his lack of credibility in his later years.

I agree with some of that but I think you are wrong on the part about Esh always pointing blame elsewhere. He may not have pointed the finger at himself as he should have after losses, but he didn't blame the facilities or the administration as he could have. Give him that much credit.

That being said this is a disgrace. We already know that the Hoyas don't have a home court advantage when playing at MCI. We also know that the Hoyas don't get a chance to practice at MCI in order to get more familiar with the court. But for the administration to makle things worse by not even allowing McD to stay open 24 hours a day for the players suggests that those people are even more stupid, more stubborn, more damaging than I had previously thought (and I already had a low opinion of them as it was). But considering how GU had allowed its hospital to be a money drain for an eternity it should come as no surprise.

As for the getting better part--I had little faith in the end that Esh could improve most of his players or his teams. For a kid like Bethel who is trying to make it to the NBA (still unlikely at this point IMO) I could understand wanting to go elsewhere for a fresh start and better hoops instruction. Not to mention having a gym that's open whenever needed.

[jerseyhoya34]

MCIGuy said:

I agree with some of that but I think you are wrong on the part about Esh always pointing blame elsewhere. He may not have pointed the finger at himself as he should have after losses, but he didn't blame the facilities or the administration as he could have. Give him that much credit.

That being said this is a disgrace. We already know that the Hoyas don't have a home court advantage when playing at MCI. We also know that the Hoyas don't get a chance to practice at MCI in order to get more familiar with the court. But for the administration to makle things worse by not even allowing McD to stay open 24 hours a day for the players suggests that those people are even more stupid, more stubborn, more damaging than I had previously thought (and I already had a low opinion of them as it was). But considering how GU had allowed its hospital to be a money drain for an eternity it should come as no surprise.

As for the getting better part--I had little faith in the end that Esh could improve most of his players or his teams. For a kid like Bethel who is trying to make it to the NBA (still unlikely at this point IMO) I could understand wanting to go elsewhere for a fresh start and better hoops instruction. Not to mention having a gym that's open whenever needed.

The decision to close McDonough at night may not have come from the top. I don't know as we have a statement that confirms what you said, although we do know that McDonough was not open for 24 hours a day when TB was around. Given Esherick's previous statements about emphasizing the academics, he may have chosen to close McDonough so the players could study up.

[jerseyhoya34]

Joe said:

Jersey, it sounds like you're separating "the program itself" from those "structural issues".

You simply can't do that. To have a productive team on the court, it has to start at the top, with the Athletic Department AND University administrations. It seems like Coach Thompson, if he did in fact hold out over support issues or whatever, has his head on straight in regards to this. He said he wants to have a "program" and not just a "team". When the suits upstairs hang the coaches and players out to dry, you're simply left with a "team". We'll have to wait and see what develops in regards to the "improvements" in the program that we've all discussed. Somehow, I don't think a new paint job in McDonough is the right start.

The point is that you can have a good program in spite of an administration that is not entirely supportive. JT2 proved that. Sure, administration can be helpful, but it is not necessary to having a good, strong program. That comes from within. So, I think that your comment about needing help from the top to have a good team is a bit overstated given Hoya history.

Believe me, I would like to have an on-campus arena as much as possible, but this issue cannot be an excuse for apologists to discount the value of coaching in college basketball. I certainly didn't excuse Esherick for his performance in spite of the facilities, and I will not excuse JT3.

There are plenty of schools that make use of off-campus facilities. The second-ranked program in the nation plays at a arena that seats 15,000-20,000, and the arena is about a 20 minute drive from campus, give or take. I can assure you that Skip Prosser and Wake fans aren't spending their time crying about it. They make the most of what they have.

I wish Hoya fans would do the same. Instead of saying it can't be done in the MCI, try it. Show up and go crazy. Buy Hoya t-shirts of any kind and hand them out to your neighbors in the seats. Invite your neighbors out to the games. Encourage your business or firm to buy tickets so you can host clients for games. If everyone did what they could, it would go a long way.

[CAHoya07]

JerseyHoya34 said:

The point is that you can have a good program in spite of an administration that is not entirely supportive. JT2 proved that. Sure, administration can be helpful, but it is not necessary to having a good, strong program. That comes from within. So, I think that your comment about needing help from the top to have a good team is a bit overstated given Hoya history.

You can be successful without an entirely supportive administration, as JT the elder proved. You can have a few strong runs in the NCAAs. But in today's age of college basketball, you will not be able to build a consistently winning program, if the administration doesn't give you the necessary funding and resources. You're just competing with schools that give so much more money to the programs than you. Doesn't mean you can't beat them, but it sure makes it a hell of a lot harder.

Look at Gonzaga. They weren't really on anyone's radar before their deep runs in the NCAAs. Then the infrastructure developed around them. First, they survived a coaching change after their first Cinderella run and now have mighty Mark Few patrolling the sidelines. Student and alumni support has skyrocketed. The administration is now committed to the team's excellence, building a new 6,000 arena for them.

It's been argued that the infrastructure never developed around Georgetown basketball during our rise to power in the late 70's to early 80's. John Thompson WAS that program, and when he got older the program was falling apart because no one was there to pick up the slack. Esherick couldn't keep it from going even further down the tubes.

Hopefully JT III can. We need a strong support structure around the basketball team, meaning administration, students, alumni, even folks in the DC area. With that and a consistently competitive team, you'll get fan loyalty, something we simply have not been able to get over the years.

Simply put: we need to bring Georgetown basketball into the 21st century.

[DFW HOYA]

JerseyHoya34 said:

There are plenty of schools that make use of off-campus facilities. The second-ranked program in the nation plays at a arena that seats 15,000-20,000, and the arena is about a 20 minute drive from campus, give or take.

The Lawrence Joel Veterans Memorial Coliseum is a half-mile from the Wake campus, and adjacent to the football stadium:

www.wfu.edu/visitors/areamap.html

What's different between the LJVM Coliseum and MCI? Let's start with three things:

1. Wake is the primary tenant, so they get priority on game dates, as do most major off-campus teams like Louisville, Florida State, Kentucky, and USC. Georgetown is third or fourth in MCI priority behind the Wizards, Capitals, and major concerts.

2. As the primary tenant, these teams get practice time. MCI Center does not give Georgetown open practice time.

3. Schools like Wake Forest also have dedicated practice facilities, so teams aren't sharing floor time with women's basketball, volleyball, or a half dozen other sports in the winter. Page 17 of this link has a photo of the Wake practice facility--simple but enough to practice on. There is no such facility at Georgetown for this purpose.

graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/wake/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/05-mg-PGS2-17.pdf

Here's the point: when recruits are looking at schools, they look for coaches but they also see commitment. Are schools doing the little things that is needed to win at this level? The quotes by Coach Thompson about walking into coaching offices that hadn't changed since he was six were not said by accident. They speak to a commitment gap over the last 10-20 years which is putting Georgetown farther and farther out of the Big East mainstream, which is fine, I guess, if you're recruiting against gyms at Columbia and Dartmouth but hardly competitive against UConn or Syracuse.

And it was that same gap that had Wake Forest, playing 25 miles away in the Greensboro Coliseum and the odd man out among the Big Four ACC schools, to commit to a facility of its own that could revitalize the program for a school that is, after all, half the size of GU and no less academically competitive.

And then there are quotes like this from a University spoksperson in Friday's HOYA: "Make no mistake," she said, "the fundamentals of the next campaign will be fundraising for financial aid, academic facilities, faculty positions, new resources to strengthen services for students and the development of the sciences on the main campus." [http://www.thehoya.com/news/111204/news4.cfm]

What's missing in that statement? Tony Bethel could probably tell you...

[SFHoya99]

DFW said:

To outsiders, a 24/7 gym access doesn't seem like much, but it speaks to how one player saw Georgetown as essentially not making the kind of time commitment to student-athletes that other schools did.

I have long contended, amidst some dispute on this board, that Craig Esherick was more a symptom of the larger problems with the program than the root cause. Agreed that Craig's wounds were self-inflicted, but don't miss the point that as it relates to the program itself, many of the root issues are still there six months later and will threaten to hamper Coach Thompson's ability to be successful going forward.

Ahoya3 is RIGHT ON TARGET with some of what men's basketball is up against, and it will take a commitment at the highest levels of this University to remedy this before it it passes a point of no return.

It also speaks to Esherick not making a key for his players. Much of something like this is the coach's responsiblity.

[Joe Hoya]

I think the point you made about history is overstated, Jersey. History is just that - history. We're talking about major-conference college basketball in the 21st century, not the 1980's, as CAHoya implied in his post. Things change.

Any team can have a good season or two, if they get some good players who play well together and play solid defense. But I'll reiterate, if you want a successful program, the commitment from the administration needs to be there. It hasn't been in recent years, and we'll have to wait and see if anything has changed.

[jerseyhoya34]

DFW said:

The Lawrence Joel Veterans Memorial Coliseum is a half-mile from the Wake campus, and adjacent to the football stadium:

www.wfu.edu/visitors/areamap.html

What's different between the LJVM Coliseum and MCI? Let's start with three things:

1. Wake is the primary tenant, so they get priority on game dates, as do most major off-campus teams like Louisville, Florida State, Kentucky, and USC. Georgetown is third or fourth in MCI priority behind the Wizards, Capitals, and major concerts.

2. As the primary tenant, these teams get practice time. MCI Center does not give Georgetown open practice time.

3. Schools like Wake Forest also have dedicated practice facilities, so teams aren't sharing floor time with women's basketball, volleyball, or a half dozen other sports in the winter. Page 17 of this link has a photo of the Wake practice facility--simple but enough to practice on. There is no such facility at Georgetown for this purpose.

graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/wake/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/05-mg-PGS2-17.pdf

Here's the point: when recruits are looking at schools, they look for coaches but they also see commitment. Are schools doing the little things that is needed to win at this level? The quotes by Coach Thompson about walking into coaching offices that hadn't changed since he was six were not said by accident. They speak to a commitment gap over the last 10-20 years which is putting Georgetown farther and farther out of the Big East mainstream, which is fine, I guess, if you're recruiting against gyms at Columbia and Dartmouth but hardly competitive against UConn or Syracuse.

And it was that same gap that had Wake Forest, playing 25 miles away in the Greensboro Coliseum and the odd man out among the Big Four ACC schools, to commit to a facility of its own that could revitalize the program for a school that is, after all, half the size of GU and no less academically competitive.

And then there are quotes like this from a University spoksperson in Friday's HOYA: "Make no mistake," she said, "the fundamentals of the next campaign will be fundraising for financial aid, academic facilities, faculty positions, new resources to strengthen services for students and the development of the sciences on the main campus." [http://www.thehoya.com/news/111204/news4.cfm]

What's missing in that statement? Tony Bethel could probably tell you...

On game days, it takes a full 20-30 minutes to make the trip from campus to the Joel. I've done the trip for a Wake-FSU football game. Geographically it may be close, but traffic changes that. There, to my knowledge, also isn't official transportation from campus to these venues, so students rely on their friends with cars to get down to the arena.

Like the MCI, the Joel is not owned by a University.

I've seen that practice facility. That floor and that building is shared by all of the winter sports. The team competes for floor time much as our squad does.

What does a player do when he walks into Cameron Indoor? That place is marginally better than McDonough by virtue of its seating capacity. What accounts more for the margin is the effective marketing of the facility. The students and administration have made the most of it.

Incidentally, JT3 saw the problem with the offices in McDonough, and they've since been renovated. Maybe the administration is going to come around after all.

Anyway, my point here is not to excuse our lack of facilities because I want an on-campus arena as much as anyone. However, it is not imperative for a successful program. In the meantime, lets make the most of what we have instead of continuing the "woe is me" discourse that emerged from the debates about Esherick.

[jerseyhoya34]

Joe said:

I think the point you made about history is overstated, Jersey. History is just that - history. We're talking about major-conference college basketball in the 21st century, not the 1980's, as CAHoya implied in his post. Things change.

Any team can have a good season or two, if they get some good players who play well together and play solid defense. But I'll reiterate, if you want a successful program, the commitment from the administration needs to be there. It hasn't been in recent years, and we'll have to wait and see if anything has changed.

I am willing to concede that most successful programs have administrative support. What I am saying is that we can have a successful program even if the administration isn't supportive.

Look at a place like Providence. They don't have world-class on-campus facilities. In fact, their on-campus arena, dating from the 1950's (floor just replaced), seats about 2600. (Link: friars.collegesports.com/school-bio/prov-facilities.html#alumni%20hall). They play the majority (if not all) of their games at the off-campus Dunkin Donuts center, which they share with a professional team and entertainers.

Now, Providence hasn't exactly made a run for the Final Four, but they've had a respectable run over the past few years, and I expect that they'll make a good run this year with Gomes.

Incidentally, I think quite a few people would be upset to hear you say that the commitment from Healy 2 hasn't been there over the last few years. DeGioia sent a pretty strong statement when he fired Esherick. That took some level of commitment to the program. Let's see how things play out under JT3 with the administration before we start slamming them again.

I think we're off to a decent start this year. I am more than pleased with our coaching staff. Look at Sydney Johnson and size him up against Chip Simms. Enough said, sorry FinalCall. Look at Kevin Broadus and size him up against Chuck Driesell, who is now coaching at Bishop Ireton High School. Look at Coach Burke and size him up against Jaren Jackson. That is perhaps the closest comparison out of the bunch, but I know where I stand on that (no disrespect intended to Jaren, for whom I have a great deal of respect).

[Joe Hoya]

I think you're selling Chuck Driesell incredibly short. He only had one year, and helped get us involved with alot of these top-name recruits that pick other schools but have us as "other schools he considered". Just because he's coaching at a high school right now means nothing. He was let go at a point when it was probably pretty hard to get another assistant's job, and still had his name in for other HC jobs (including Georgetown).

You seem to equate administrative support directly with an on-campus arena. I want one too, but I never said a word about it in my posts. We all know there are other things universities and athletic departments can do aside from building arenas.

Oh, and if Wake Forest's off-campus arena really is only a half-mile away, and people only go if they can get a ride, then they are possibly the laziest students in America. Get away from your computer, get out of your chair, and WALK.

[jerseyhoya34]

Just measure Broadus' experience up against Driesell's. It is pretty close, but Broadus has more experience as a proven recruiter, whereas Driesell spent his most recent years at a D3 school. The skills he developed there don't necessarily translate to the BE level.

Another factor to consider is how Esherick seemed to marginalize his assistants, so a lot of this isn't their fault. Remember the Pettway issue...

As for the Joel Coliseum, it is really a mile and a half from campus, per Mapquest. You cannot walk it because that would involve crossing fairly busy highways. Just as you might not be interested in walking a mile and a half and crossing the BW Parkway, you'd probably think twice about walking to the Joel.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

The beginning of the end started with JT I. In his last few years, I think he lost his edge and ability to find the quality recruits. Iverson resurrected the program for two years and had a good nucleus to work with. J. Williams was a major surprise and players like Harrington & White who were big time recruits, never developed a ton after their freshman year.

Practice time at MCI makes a lot of sense. It would help if we could get time once a week to just shoot. It isn't a major help to play in a place 15 some odd times a year without the benefit of practice there. Esherick just never had a handle on the players and the issues and he also didn't have the stature of a JT I and that is why things completely fell apart under him. JT I at least had the Joe Paterno type rep where he had established the program so he earned the right to punch his ticket and determine when he wanted to leave.

[CAHoya07]

Yes, practice time at MCI, in addition to more inclusive practice times at McDonough, would definitely help big time. JT III seems to be conservatively progressive (if there is such a thing) in pursuing things like this, so I wouldn't be surprised if he were able to hook this up.