No really, just shoehorn in preconceived notions

[GIGAFAN99]

From the front page

"The Hoyas' three point shooting, once reliable with Ashanti Cook and Darrel Owens, was 6 for 19 Sunday and stands for the season at a uncharacteristic 16 for 54 (.296), a statistic redolent of the days when Kevin Braswell and Anthony Perry were manning the Georgetown artillery."

Last year after 3 games we were 2-1 with a home loss to an NIT team (sound famillar). Our three-point shooting:

Navy: 5-13
JMU: 6-20
Vandy: 6-22

17-55 total for those counting. Let's hit the first one at Fairfield to be "reliable" early in the season. We were just plain marksmen out of the gate last year.

[AustinHoya03]

gigafan99 said:

From the front page

"The Hoyas' three point shooting, once reliable with Ashanti Cook and Darrel Owens, was 6 for 19 Sunday and stands for the season at a uncharacteristic 16 for 54 (.296), a statistic redolent of the days when Kevin Braswell and Anthony Perry were manning the Georgetown artillery."

Last year after 3 games we were 2-1 with a home loss to an NIT team (sound famillar). Our three-point shooting:

Navy: 5-13
JMU: 6-20
Vandy: 6-22

17-55 total for those counting. Let's hit the first one at Fairfield to be "reliable" early in the season. We were just plain marksmen out of the gate last year.

Good post, GIGA, but despite what the rest of the board says I'm more concerned about rebound and assist/turnover stats. How'd we do with those in the first 3 games last season?

[TrueHoyaBlue]

Hoyas 30 Navy 29
Hoyas 26 JMU 28
Hoyas 27 Vandy 24

Certainly not appreciably better in the rebound department. I don't have the time or energy to look further into the box scores at this point, but help yourself:
sports.espn.go.com/ncb/teamsched?teamId=46&seasonYear=2006

[TrueHoyaBlue]

but for starters, we had 9 assists and 15 TOs in the navy game.

[GIGAFAN99]

Thought you'd never ask.

Rebounding:

Last year: 30-29, 30-30, 29-28 for +2
This year: 39-23, 38-33, 28-35 for +14


A/TO
Last Year: 9/15, 11/12, 12/12 for -7
This year: 9/12, 15/13, 13/14 for -2

But no really, we're in big, big trouble. The sky is falling. We're not possibly at or ahead of last year but with more upside. We're really desperate.

[hoyaboy1]

Unless I missed all the posts that said we were done and had no hope, this is pointless.

Of course we can play better from here on out, but just because our 3 point shooting started slowly last year does not mean we will also end up shooting well this year.

I know you like to play the super-optimist schtick, but there are some legit concerns that people have with this team and there is nothing wrong with expressing them.

[SFHoya99]

There are legit concerns.

The issue for me, hoyaboy, is that ODU wasn't indicative of any of them. I think that's Giga's point. Many people are attacking the guardplay, the three point shooting or the offense for the loss.

How is it any of them?

1. Guardplay: Jon Wallace and Jesse Sapp combined for 29 points on just 22 shots. They committed 5 turnovers, but had 8 assists. So in total, the two starting guards, playing 70 minutes (35%) were involved in at least 45 of our 62 points.

Thirty five percent of the minutes. Involved in nearly 75% of the scoring.

Now the five turnovers are not so good. And only two rebounds is poor. And maybe they were awful on defense. But don't tell me these guys didn't do their part on the scoring end. Jeff plus the bench scored 5. 5.

2. Three point shooting. We didn't shoot all that well from three. So maybe people are right there. But Wallace shot 3-6 and Sapp 2-5. Jeff plus the bench? 1-7. 1-7.

3. The offense. No, it wasn't our top 10 offense from last year. Scoring only 62 points in 61 possessions, even accounting for the possibility that ODU may be pretty good defensively (or may not be, who knows at this point?), is not good.

But you know what really stinks? Giving up 75 points in 61 possessions. That's a 120 efficiency. That's our opponents would lead the NCAAs in offense bad. That's, if we ran like Maryland, we just gave up 110 points bad.

Our defense was atrocious.

So yeah, hoyaboy, there are concerns with this team. But how does the ODU game point to the same old concerns? I'm concerned that this team has played flat two out of three games. I'm concerned that Jeff sat the first half, watched as we fell behind and still didn't demand the ball. I'm concerned that we're replacing three savvy seniors with mostly frosh who are even more behind in defense than in offense (and in defense you can't let others lead -- the opponent chooses who to attack).

In fact, I'm wondering why more people aren't happy with the guardplay. Or at least the play of Sapp and Wallace. Twenty-nine points on 22 shots? That's like a 1.4 something PPS. Roy has those numbers, not guards. Even when you factor in a turnover or two too many, they still had a good offensive game (again, rebounding and defense could be worse).

[HoyaFanNY]

look at sapps first 2 games. 6-17 from the field and 1-7 from 3. nothing to be happy about there. we are in big trouble when jesse leads the team in shots attempted, like he did sunday. perimeter defense is also a big problem with the guards.

[Locker]

sfhoya99 said:

There are legit concerns.

The issue for me, hoyaboy, is that ODU wasn't indicative of any of them. I think that's Giga's point. Many people are attacking the guardplay, the three point shooting or the offense for the loss.

How is it any of them?

1. Guardplay: Jon Wallace and Jesse Sapp combined for 29 points on just 22 shots. They committed 5 turnovers, but had 8 assists. So in total, the two starting guards, playing 70 minutes (35%) were involved in at least 45 of our 62 points.

Thirty five percent of the minutes. Involved in nearly 75% of the scoring.

Now the five turnovers are not so good. And only two rebounds is poor. And maybe they were awful on defense. But don't tell me these guys didn't do their part on the scoring end. Jeff plus the bench scored 5. 5.

2. Three point shooting. We didn't shoot all that well from three. So maybe people are right there. But Wallace shot 3-6 and Sapp 2-5. Jeff plus the bench? 1-7. 1-7.

3. The offense. No, it wasn't our top 10 offense from last year. Scoring only 62 points in 61 possessions, even accounting for the possibility that ODU may be pretty good defensively (or may not be, who knows at this point?), is not good.

But you know what really stinks? Giving up 75 points in 61 possessions. That's a 120 efficiency. That's our opponents would lead the NCAAs in offense bad. That's, if we ran like Maryland, we just gave up 110 points bad.

Our defense was atrocious.

So yeah, hoyaboy, there are concerns with this team. But how does the ODU game point to the same old concerns? I'm concerned that this team has played flat two out of three games. I'm concerned that Jeff sat the first half, watched as we fell behind and still didn't demand the ball. I'm concerned that we're replacing three savvy seniors with mostly frosh who are even more behind in defense than in offense (and in defense you can't let others lead -- the opponent chooses who to attack).

In fact, I'm wondering why more people aren't happy with the guardplay. Or at least the play of Sapp and Wallace. Twenty-nine points on 22 shots? That's like a 1.4 something PPS. Roy has those numbers, not guards. Even when you factor in a turnover or two too many, they still had a good offensive game (again, rebounding and defense could be worse).

This is spot on.

[hoyaboy1]

I'm not sure where you picked up the idea that GIGA was only talking about ODU, since he was pretty clearly comparing these threes game to our first three last year.

Sapp I believe was 3 for 3 with 7 points in the last 4 minutes of the game, and Egerson 2 for 2 with 5 points. Up until then Sapp had been silent for a long time and the offense in general looked terrible; I'm not going to get too excited by stats padded in garbage time.

And yes, our defense was bad too . . .but I'm not sure how that should make me not worry about the offense either, which is what GIGA seems to want. Personally, I have more confidence in the rebounding coming around than anything else. That's probably easier to fix, especially with our roster, than three point shooting. The defense I'm not sure about, but I'm hopeful that comes around too.

I'd disagree that the freshman are more behind on defense than offense. The big offenders are Summers and Ewing, but I see no evidence that they are any less clueless on one side than the other. I haven't noticed any particular defensive lapses by Rivers or Macklin - not that they have done anything on offense, either.

[TBird41]

hoyaboy1 said:

I'm not sure where you picked up the idea that GIGA was only talking about ODU, since he was pretty clearly comparing these threes game to our first three last year.

Sapp I believe was 3 for 3 with 7 points in the last 4 minutes of the game, and Egerson 2 for 2 with 5 points. Up until then Sapp had been silent for a long time and the offense in general looked terrible; I'm not going to get too excited by stats padded in garbage time.

And yes, our defense was bad too . . .but I'm not sure how that should make me not worry about the offense either, which is what GIGA seems to want. Personally, I have more confidence in the rebounding coming around than anything else. That's probably easier to fix, especially with our roster, than three point shooting. The defense I'm not sure about, but I'm hopeful that comes around too.

I'd disagree that the freshman are more behind on defense than offense. The big offenders are Summers and Ewing, but I see no evidence that they are any less clueless on one side than the other. I haven't noticed any particular defensive lapses by Rivers or Macklin - not that they have done anything on offense, either.

I'm confused as to why the last four minutes of a 10 point game are considered garbage time. Is a ten point deficit that hard to make up?

[hoyaboy1]

At our pace and with our bad press, yea - but that's a fair enough point. My "4 minutes" was sort of a guess, since I don't believe there is play by play anywhere. Towards the end of the game ODU stopped semmed to stop playing tough D, and were allowing Sapp to penetrate and shoot largely uncontested, and for Egerson to camp next to the basket - those were the type of points I was trying to focus on. However, it is possible that those two just started showing more aggression, and ODU couldn't handle it. Didn't appear that way to me at the time, but it could be the case.

That wasn't really the part of the argument I wanted to focus on, however. I'm just not a fan of arguments like the one GIGA proposed. I see it all the time, and all that it proves is that it is possible for something to turn around, not that it is likely. And I don't think anybody here believed it was impossible.

[KHoyaNYC]

Not to sound like a broken record, but the reliance on stats alone is helpful, but by no means definitive. And, frankly, I could care less what last year's team did. We were suppossed to be better this year. People are concerned because we've played 1 solid basketball game out of 3 so far, and were upset by THIRTEEN on our campus home gym in what is generously being called a lackluster performance.

Look, the sky is not falling, it's only one game, and I'll think we'll be fine. But I don't care what last year's team did, and I don't need to look at "stats" to tell me the team is not performing to the level it can and should. Let's see what tomorrow's game brings in the way of improvement.

[GIGAFAN99]

sfhoya99 said:

There are legit concerns.

The issue for me, hoyaboy, is that ODU wasn't indicative of any of them. I think that's Giga's point. Many people are attacking the guardplay, the three point shooting or the offense for the loss.

How is it any of them?

1. Guardplay: Jon Wallace and Jesse Sapp combined for 29 points on just 22 shots. They committed 5 turnovers, but had 8 assists. So in total, the two starting guards, playing 70 minutes (35%) were involved in at least 45 of our 62 points.

Thirty five percent of the minutes. Involved in nearly 75% of the scoring.

Now the five turnovers are not so good. And only two rebounds is poor. And maybe they were awful on defense. But don't tell me these guys didn't do their part on the scoring end. Jeff plus the bench scored 5. 5.

2. Three point shooting. We didn't shoot all that well from three. So maybe people are right there. But Wallace shot 3-6 and Sapp 2-5. Jeff plus the bench? 1-7. 1-7.

3. The offense. No, it wasn't our top 10 offense from last year. Scoring only 62 points in 61 possessions, even accounting for the possibility that ODU may be pretty good defensively (or may not be, who knows at this point?), is not good.

But you know what really stinks? Giving up 75 points in 61 possessions. That's a 120 efficiency. That's our opponents would lead the NCAAs in offense bad. That's, if we ran like Maryland, we just gave up 110 points bad.

Our defense was atrocious.

So yeah, hoyaboy, there are concerns with this team. But how does the ODU game point to the same old concerns? I'm concerned that this team has played flat two out of three games. I'm concerned that Jeff sat the first half, watched as we fell behind and still didn't demand the ball. I'm concerned that we're replacing three savvy seniors with mostly frosh who are even more behind in defense than in offense (and in defense you can't let others lead -- the opponent chooses who to attack).

In fact, I'm wondering why more people aren't happy with the guardplay. Or at least the play of Sapp and Wallace. Twenty-nine points on 22 shots? That's like a 1.4 something PPS. Roy has those numbers, not guards. Even when you factor in a turnover or two too many, they still had a good offensive game (again, rebounding and defense could be worse).

Agree SF. My problem isn't that people "have concerns" (although to be really concerned after three games is a bit ridiculous, but I'll let that go). My problem is that a lot of people are trying to pound the square peg of poor offensive guard play into the round hole that is the loss to ODU.

No, because we started shooting poorly last year doesn't mean we'll end up shooting well this year. But the inverse is true as well. Don't say the team can't shoot as well as last year's team because you THINK they can't shoot (which JTIII denies, he think s we're closer than most state here) and then say the "numbers back you up" when we were in the same place last year.

I think our real issues are more on defensive organization and just general early season adjustments to the new roles (cutting turnovers, incorporating the new guys into the rotation). Those take time. But if you told me out of the blocks, our starting 5 would have this much balance (17, 14, 12, 11, 8) I'd have been loving it.

If this team figures out how to play consistent D, TC comes back healthy, and the new guys get integrated we still have a higher ceiling than last year.

[hoyaboy1]

I agree that there should be more talk about the bad defense, but I suppose with our style it will always be like that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be worried about an offense that has a very different skill set yet so far looks the same as last year's. I think balanced posts (not many of those, of course) are more helpful than dismissive posts made to counteract perceived slights.

If we have a higher ceiling than last year, I think it will need to come from defense and rebounding. I am confident the offense can be better than it has been so far, but I really doubt it can be as efficient as it was last year.

[paranoya]

I agree, two facts that seem to get lost in this is that sans Jeff our scoring was extremely balanced for our starters (our bench leaves something to be desired). Also Egerson's nose for the ball hasnt been praised enough, he is a rebounding machine. This is something I have noticed since last year, not just this game. Couple him with TC when he gets back healthy and we will be much better off in the rebouding department.

[TBird41]

hoyaboy1 said:

At our pace and with our bad press, yea - but that's a fair enough point. My "4 minutes" was sort of a guess, since I don't believe there is play by play anywhere.

CBSSportsline has one up

www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/gamecenter/playbyplay/NCAAB_20061119_OLDOM@GTOWN

[hoyaboy1]

Thanks for the heads up. Seems like it is missing a lot of info and has some errors though. Somebody fell asleep.

[bmartin]

The GUHoyas box score is followed by the play by play:
guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2006-2007/game3.html

Wallace hit a 3 at 10:12 to close to 47-50.
No more Georgetown points until Egerson free throws at 6:24
Egerson & Sapp scored the last 15 points for Georgetown.
Wallace & Hibbert had scored the first 16 points of the 2nd half, then none after that.
The foul ODU, then drive for a lightly contested shot portion of the game was the last 2 minutes. ODU's last 10 points were free throws. Egerson & Sapp had two baskets each during that stretch.

[SFHoya99]

I just have one comment -- the "garbage time" comment. Everyone said this about Cook last year. Of course he probably ended up being our most "clutch" player.

Garbage time doesn't exist in the players' minds in a ten point game. It's only something in hindisght. If the defense had played well down the stretch, Sapp and Egerson's points would have been "clutch."

I think everyone has valid concerns over the freshmen, and shooting and guardplay. I just don't think the loss to ODU was caused by those things.