Buying into the Culture

[prhoya]

Nov 21, 2024 12:32:36 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Nov 21, 2024 11:30:24 GMT -5 jpj said:

i wonder what the financial cost and loss of these type of games are?
and how do potential recruits feel about it?

It's a lot of money. I don't have exact numbers, only clues in the public domain, so it would be inappropriate to claim otherwise.

Attendance can be announced in two ways: "actual attendance", verifiable by turnstile scans at publicly owned facilities, a number wholly unlikely for Monumental or Georgetown to ever disclose, or "announced attendance", whichever is higher. "Announced attendance" is the combination of season ticket holders, single game sales, comps, tickets bought for free or marginal distribution, or tickets bought by the school itself to inflate attendance, something done at lower-tier FBS football programs.

There is zero probability that 2,756 people were in the building Wednesday, even if you count Capital One Arena contract employees. It was likely in the three digits. When you start peeling back the onion, the numbers are bad, and that's why I raise the alarm. Take away the minimum number tickets required to be distributed to the road team (say, 200), Georgetown staff and guest comps (100), student tickets sold but not redeemed (500 to 600), walk-up tickets (someone might have), you see a net season ticket base in the mid 1,000's, many of whom saw their ticket price go way up due to a change in how seating is calculated. For now, the Georgetown University administration will eat these costs. Another administration down the road may not be so willing.

Winning helps but it's not like there are thousands of fans holding back coming to a game because they're 3-1 and not 4-0. DC is transitory, and the fans of Chris Wright, Austin Freeman, and Otto Porter may not even be here in 2024.

Given the back-of-napkin numbers above, here are the low attendance marks since 2012, which gives you an idea of how the core base has atrophied, and maybe why Ed Cooley has gone silent about getting fans to show up.

JT III:
2008-09: 7,964
2009-10: 7,643
2010-11: 7,160
2011-12: 6,854
2012-13: 5,283
2013-14: 4,676
2014-15: 4,887
2015-16: 4,063
2016-17: 3,996
Ewing:
2017-18: 4,020
2018-19: 4,011
2019-20: 4,088
2021-22: 3,462
2022-23: 3,076
Cooley:
2023-24: 2,744
2024-25: 2,756

(Re)build it and they will come!

[hoyasaxa2003]

Because we have been so bad in the last several years, I feel like we've had this discussion year after year. Are there programs that draw a lot of fans regardless of their team's quality or when they struggle? Yes. But these are mostly midwestern programs like Marquette, Creighton, and Dayton. St. John's is in the biggest city and media market in the country, and when they were struggling all those years, their attendance wasn't very good either.

Georgetown has never been one of those programs. Not in the 1970s, not in the Ewing (as a player) era, and certainly not in the last few decades. Fans generally show up when Georgetown wins, and then they leave when Georgetown loses.

Part of this is that when you win, you build a fan base. It's no coincidence that the 2008-2009 season featured the highest "low" attendance given that we had been in the Final Four two seasons earlier. That's also why the "low" attendance went up slightly in 2014-2015--we made the NCAA tournament. The other issue is schedule. When you play a ton of teams ranked 250-350 the games are much less enjoyable, and not fun. Especially at 8:30 on a Wednesday. Did I enjoy the win last night? Yes. Was watching Georgetown beat Mount Saint Mary's because they are horrible that interesting? Not really, and I am a super fan.

To me, the biggest long term problem is there is over a decade of people who went to Georgetown now without much basketball success. Without success, you get fewer fans, and then years down the road, they're not fans. I still think there is a big group of people who came of age in the 2004-2013-ish period who could be "reactivated" by Georgetown winning. As far as those who came from 2013 to present, that's going to be a much tougher sell.

[jackofjoy]

Nov 21, 2024 11:30:24 GMT -5 jpj said:

Nov 21, 2024 11:22:04 GMT -5 guru said:

Got a text from a friend who has no interest in Hoya hoops, but had seen the report about the crowd size last night. It might be the only news about Georgetown basketball people like him see all season. Playing games like that there really just brings more embarrassment upon the program and hinders the rebuild.

i wonder what the financial cost and loss of these type of games are?
and how do potential recruits feel about it?

[EtomicB]

Nov 21, 2024 14:53:05 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Because we have been so bad in the last several years, I feel like we've had this discussion year after year. Are there programs that draw a lot of fans regardless of their team's quality or when they struggle? Yes. But these are mostly midwestern programs like Marquette, Creighton, and Dayton. St. John's is in the biggest city and media market in the country, and when they were struggling all those years, their attendance wasn't very good either.

Georgetown has never been one of those programs. Not in the 1970s, not in the Ewing (as a player) era, and certainly not in the last few decades. Fans generally show up when Georgetown wins, and then they leave when Georgetown loses.

Part of this is that when you win, you build a fan base. It's no coincidence that the 2008-2009 season featured the highest "low" attendance given that we had been in the Final Four two seasons earlier. That's also why the "low" attendance went up slightly in 2014-2015--we made the NCAA tournament. The other issue is schedule. When you play a ton of teams ranked 250-350 the games are much less enjoyable, and not fun. Especially at 8:30 on a Wednesday. Did I enjoy the win last night? Yes. Was watching Georgetown beat Mount Saint Mary's because they are horrible that interesting? Not really, and I am a super fan.

To me, the biggest long term problem is there is over a decade of people who went to Georgetown now without much basketball success. Without success, you get fewer fans, and then years down the road, they're not fans. I still think there is a big group of people who came of age in the 2004-2013-ish period who could be "reactivated" by Georgetown winning. As far as those who came from 2013 to present, that's going to be a much tougher sell.

But St.John's had terrible leadership(much like DePaul & Gtown) during their down years, which can't & shouldn't be discounted. That's the biggest difference between Marquette, Creighton, Xavier, Dayton, Butler, VCU etc...

You & I have had more than a few back & forth posts over my theory that Gtown needs fresh eyes from a basketball AD perspective, that theory is even more evident now that Cooley has come over & little has changed in the way the program goes about it's business.

DFW called it "institutional rot and/or indifference" that has to change as well for the program to truly move forward.

[jwp91]

Well, with DeGoia retiring, the elephant may be shifting.

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 21, 2024 14:53:05 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Because we have been so bad in the last several years, I feel like we've had this discussion year after year. Are there programs that draw a lot of fans regardless of their team's quality or when they struggle? Yes. But these are mostly midwestern programs like Marquette, Creighton, and Dayton. St. John's is in the biggest city and media market in the country, and when they were struggling all those years, their attendance wasn't very good either.

A few examples:

Vanderbilt had one NCAA bid between 1966 and 1988, and was ranked in the top 10 in NCAA attendance every year from 1970 through 1984. Memorial Gymnasium was the largest arena of its kind and plenty of SEC fans could travel to Nashville, sure, but a 10-17 team averaging 14,813 a game is impressive.

Villanova always had a strong turnout, especially at the Palestra. All the Big Five did. Could Villanova had filled the Spectrum every game? Probably not often, but they didn't have to.

Mid-1970s Duke wasn't great: six straight seasons without the post season from 1971-77. An example: 1973-74: 10-16, 2-10 ACC. They still drew quite well given its location among a still compact seven team ACC.

Bottom line, there is no consensus among contemporary DC residents and Georgetown alumni that attendance at games is a priority. And, parenthetically, if Georgetown had signed up (or been invited, either one) to the traditional Thanksgiving or Christmas tournaments, these two games this week wouldn't be played at Capital One Arena and we would be debating how they would fare at the Charleston Classic or the Vegas Showdown.