Buying into the Culture

[calhoya]

Nov 20, 2024 0:15:33 GMT -5 playtyler said:

I agree with everyone that Blueandgray is easily one of the most valuable posters on this board. But I am confused when the claim is that the problem is that only Epps, Mack, Sorber, Fielder and Peavy are all in. These are the best five players on the team and four of the five starters. If some of the young bench guys are not bought in, we still should be able to play better with our five best players bought in, and be able to survive the others not yet on board. Yet, in the first three games we have been awful.

Against Lehigh (a team that is 0-4 and in the other three games lost to Northwestern by 44, UCLA by 40 and to Columbia) we were down 5 18 minutes into the first half and down one with 13 minutes left in the game. I was there and it felt worse than that (we only won the second half by three points and the game by 8 points).

Against Fairfield (who lost to Rhode Island by 38 and Drexel by 6 and whose only real win was a 6 point win against an awful 1-6 New Hampshire team (who lost by 18 to Brown)), the starters who are "bought in" were down ten in the first half and Cooley yanked them all out and we fought back to up 3 at halftime, ultimately winning by 12. I was at this game and it never felt like Fairfield was out of the game.

Against Notre Dame ...

We have almost no shooting, with less threes made than our opponent in all three games, while having more three point attempts and never breaking 30% from 3. Our defense is a work in progress with only Peavy and Sorber being plus defenders. As an aside, I am very much enjoying watch Peavy guard.

To be clear, I like this team and our top 7 guys are all Big East level talent who are for the most part "bought in". We shouldn't be playing this badly against these teams with this level talent. The buy-in thing doesn't really seem to be the issue when it all five of our best players and the minutes that they have been in as a unit have been some of the worst minutes. Some great recent teams (UNC, Kansas, Uconn) have gone with basically 5 guys, with spot duty for the subs.

We won't win a lot this year without any shooting. Last year we shot 35% from 3. This year it is 25% (admittedly low sample size). Hopefully we shoot better and play some defense. Or it is going to be another long season and some of those players who are bought in are going to be bought out.

Well this is a depressing recap of the season to date. More depressing is that I cannot find anything to disagree with. Shooting is a major problem but there have been good teams who win despite limited shooting ability. You cannot, however, win with poor shooting and poor defense. Barely beating mid-majors that other teams are stomping is not a sign of progress. Getting blown out at home by a ND team picked in the middle of the ACC is not progress. It's a young team and it is only 3 games into their season but it has also been 35 games into the Cooley era and even with new players who've been together for months not years, the coach should be able to make the adjustments to correct the same issues that surfaced last year. I am expecting to see progress beginning tonight with a statement win which shows that coach and players can learn from the mistakes of a young season.

[traversb]

Nov 20, 2024 1:53:45 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

I confess that I haven’t read every post on this thread….and perhaps I shouldn’t have posted. By no means am
I saying that the only people I mentioned are the ones that are bought in. More are as well.

I think culture in this case refers to gratitude of the incredible opportunity being given to these young men. They go to an incredible academic institution , play for great coaches, have wonderful facilities and get paid to do so. Some guys appreciate it more than others. Anytime you have a group that shares an appreciation for such things….you build a culture of gratitude which usually leads to good things. For some, it’s a work in progress.

While there is some merit to be thankful for everything in life. That is hardly the culture I hope Cooley is preaching in this situation. What you described is more of a life culture than a D1 basketball culture. These players can get what you described at a lot of other schools around the country as well. 

I am also surprised based on the first post that this thread is still up. There are some disparaging insinuations in your original post. I think you would've been better off just saying through your connections you heard some players have bad attitudes instead of trying to attribute it to other things in their life. 

[jackofjoy]

Nov 20, 2024 1:53:45 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

I confess that I haven’t read every post on this thread….and perhaps I shouldn’t have posted. By no means am
I saying that the only people I mentioned are the ones that are bought in. More are as well.

I think culture in this case refers to gratitude of the incredible opportunity being given to these young men. They go to an incredible academic institution , play for great coaches, have wonderful facilities and get paid to do so. Some guys appreciate it more than others. Anytime you have a group that shares an appreciation for such things….you build a culture of gratitude which usually leads to good things. For some, it’s a work in progress.

The issue is ... this is a lot of schools these days.  I know we tend to do the ivory tower Georgetown thing but most state schools (even outside of the Michigans, UVAs) are pretty damn good academically (if the kids even care).  We're still playing checkers ...

[guru]

Honestly, with all the talk about which players are "buying in," I've been pretty perplexed by Cooley's overall attitude. I don't see the fiery guy I remember playing against when he was at Providence. He seems pretty disillusioned with what he's doing at Georgetown, and the vibe seems to spill over into the team, which isn't surprising. Maybe it's just frustration, I don't know. He just doesn't seem all that interested, and that's a big disappointment.

[guru]

Nov 20, 2024 1:53:45 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

I think culture in this case refers to gratitude of the incredible opportunity being given to these young men. They go to an incredible academic institution , play for great coaches, have wonderful facilities and get paid to do so.

This is simply not a realistic selling point in the modern college sports landscape. In the NIL era, academics have been completely deemphasized, there are great coaches all over the country, most Power conference schools have facilities equal to or better than Georgetown's, and everyone is getting paid. There is nothing in that summary that sets Georgetown apart - Cooley has to figure out what those things might be, and as of yet he just hasn't.

[DFW HOYA]

One school that buys into culture:

One school that does not:

[prhoya]

Nov 20, 2024 23:21:33 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

One school that buys into culture:

One school that does not:

So terrible! How do we allow this to happen?

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 20, 2024 23:30:14 GMT -5 prhoya said:

So terrible! How do we allow this to happen?

Institutional indifference and, in some cases, institutional rot.

Maybe a few words about it tomorrow.

[HoyaRejuveNation85]

Nov 20, 2024 23:33:01 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Nov 20, 2024 23:30:14 GMT -5 prhoya said:

So terrible! How do we allow this to happen?

Institutional indifference and, in some cases, institutional rot.

Maybe a few words about it tomorrow.

Just win some games. Give people some hope. That solves a lot of problems.

[sweetness]

We know how we got here - we have been terrible for years. If we start winning and the young guys give us some hope the crowd will come back.

[jackofjoy]

Nov 20, 2024 16:37:51 GMT -5 guru said:

Honestly, with all the talk about which players are "buying in," I've been pretty perplexed by Cooley's overall attitude. I don't see the fiery guy I remember playing against when he was at Providence. He seems pretty disillusioned with what he's doing at Georgetown, and the vibe seems to spill over into the team, which isn't surprising. Maybe it's just frustration, I don't know. He just doesn't seem all that interested, and that's a big disappointment.

No doubt he’s got some buyer’s remorse. Money can paper over a lot of problems and he says the right things but have to imagine even he can’t believe the size of the sh!t sandwich (not yet on the menu at Wisey’s) he was handed (or decided to be served).

[Elvado]

Ed Cooley seems like a good man.

However, he is on his retirement contract. He need never work again after GU, as, parenthetically, all Hoya coaches since time immemorial have not.

If he fails here, it is not a career killer.

GU basketball all by itself is a career killer.

Total games coached by former Hoya coaches since 1972—0

This is 20/20 hindsight to be sure, but what was needed after III was an up and coming head coach (not our 80’s hero).

The same was true post Patrick. We needed someone who could not afford to fail. We picked someone who could.

[Admin]

Malik Mack posts were moved to the 24-25 discussion thread.

[guru]

Got a text from a friend who has no interest in Hoya hoops, but had seen the report about the crowd size last night. It might be the only news about Georgetown basketball people like him see all season. Playing games like that there really just brings more embarrassment upon the program and hinders the rebuild.

[jpj]

Nov 21, 2024 11:22:04 GMT -5 guru said:

Got a text from a friend who has no interest in Hoya hoops, but had seen the report about the crowd size last night. It might be the only news about Georgetown basketball people like him see all season. Playing games like that there really just brings more embarrassment upon the program and hinders the rebuild.

i wonder what the financial cost and loss of these type of games are?
and how do potential recruits feel about it?

[thedragon]

Nov 21, 2024 11:22:04 GMT -5 guru said:

Got a text from a friend who has no interest in Hoya hoops, but had seen the report about the crowd size last night. It might be the only news about Georgetown basketball people like him see all season. Playing games like that there really just brings more embarrassment upon the program and hinders the rebuild.

Did you see Penn States attendance last night? x.com/Austin_Cree/status/1859386532206891126?t=q1QInduLFHwgPZQ7o3T7tg&s=19

At a state school with an on campus arena. I'm sure your friend sent it to you.

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 21, 2024 11:30:24 GMT -5 jpj said:

Nov 21, 2024 11:22:04 GMT -5 guru said:

Got a text from a friend who has no interest in Hoya hoops, but had seen the report about the crowd size last night. It might be the only news about Georgetown basketball people like him see all season. Playing games like that there really just brings more embarrassment upon the program and hinders the rebuild.

i wonder what the financial cost and loss of these type of games are?
and how do potential recruits feel about it?

It's a lot of money. I don't have exact numbers, only clues in the public domain, so it would be inappropriate to claim otherwise.

Attendance can be announced in two ways: "actual attendance", verifiable by turnstile scans at publicly owned facilities, a number wholly unlikely for Monumental or Georgetown to ever disclose, or "announced attendance", whichever is higher. "Announced attendance" is the combination of season ticket holders, single game sales, comps, tickets bought for free or marginal distribution, or tickets bought by the school itself to inflate attendance, something done at lower-tier FBS football programs.

There is zero probability that 2,756 people were in the building Wednesday, even if you count Capital One Arena contract employees. It was likely in the three digits. When you start peeling back the onion, the numbers are bad, and that's why I raise the alarm. Take away the minimum number tickets required to be distributed to the road team (say, 200), Georgetown staff and guest comps (100), student tickets sold but not redeemed (500 to 600), walk-up tickets (someone might have), you see a net season ticket base in the mid 1,000's, many of whom saw their ticket price go way up due to a change in how seating is calculated. For now, the Georgetown University administration will eat these costs. Another administration down the road may not be so willing.

Winning helps but it's not like there are thousands of fans holding back coming to a game because they're 3-1 and not 4-0. DC is transitory, and the fans of Chris Wright, Austin Freeman, and Otto Porter may not even be here in 2024.

Given the back-of-napkin numbers above, here are the low attendance marks since 2012, which gives you an idea of how the core base has atrophied, and maybe why Ed Cooley has gone silent about getting fans to show up.

JT III:
2008-09: 7,964
2009-10: 7,643
2010-11: 7,160
2011-12: 6,854
2012-13: 5,283
2013-14: 4,676
2014-15: 4,887
2015-16: 4,063
2016-17: 3,996
Ewing:
2017-18: 4,020
2018-19: 4,011
2019-20: 4,088
2021-22: 3,462
2022-23: 3,076
Cooley:
2023-24: 2,744
2024-25: 2,756

[thedragon]

Nov 21, 2024 12:32:36 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Nov 21, 2024 11:30:24 GMT -5 jpj said:

i wonder what the financial cost and loss of these type of games are?
and how do potential recruits feel about it?

It's a lot of money. I don't have exact numbers, only clues in the public domain, so it would be inappropriate to claim otherwise.

Attendance can be announced in two ways: "actual attendance", verifiable by turnstile scans at publicly owned facilities, a number wholly unlikely for Monumental or Georgetown to ever disclose, or "announced attendance", whichever is higher. "Announced attendance" is the combination of season ticket holders, single game sales, comps, tickets bought for free or marginal distribution, or tickets bought by the school itself to inflate attendance, something done at lower-tier FBS football programs.

There is zero probability that 2,756 people were in the building Wednesday, even if you count Capital One Arena contract employees. It was likely in the three digits. When you start peeling back the onion, the numbers are bad, and that's why I raise the alarm. Take away the minimum number tickets required to be distributed to the road team (say, 200), Georgetown staff and guest comps (100), student tickets sold but not redeemed (500 to 600), walk-up tickets (someone might have), you see a net season ticket base in the mid 1,000's, many of whom saw their ticket price go way up due to a change in how seating is calculated. For now, the Georgetown University administration will eat these costs. Another administration down the road may not be so willing.

Winning helps but it's not like there are thousands of fans holding back coming to a game because they're 3-1 and not 4-0. DC is transitory, and the fans of Chris Wright, Austin Freeman, and Otto Porter may not even be here in 2024.

Given the back-of-napkin numbers above, here are the low attendance marks since 2012, which gives you an idea of how the core base has atrophied, and maybe why Ed Cooley has gone silent about getting fans to show up.

JT III:
2008-09: 7,964
2009-10: 7,643
2010-11: 7,160
2011-12: 6,854
2012-13: 5,283
2013-14: 4,676
2014-15: 4,887
2015-16: 4,063
2016-17: 3,996
Ewing:
2017-18: 4,020
2018-19: 4,011
2019-20: 4,088
2021-22: 3,462
2022-23: 3,076
Cooley:
2023-24: 2,744
2024-25: 2,756

My fundamental disagreement is with this line "br]
Winning helps but it's not like there are thousands of fans holding back coming to a game..."

There is a direct correlation from being a consistently ranked tournament team to the worst high major team in the country or close to it. While there might not be 1000s of fans that care between 4-0 and 3-1 after winning 4 BE games in 3 years. But there are 1000s of fans that care if the team is near the top of Big East and contending again.

[DFW HOYA]

Nov 21, 2024 12:37:25 GMT -5 thedragon said:

My fundamental disagreement is with this line "Winning helps but it's not like there are thousands of fans holding back coming to a game..."

There is a direct correlation from being a consistently ranked tournament team to the worst high major team in the country or close to it. While there might not be 1000s of fans that care between 4-0 and 3-1 after winning 4 BE games in 3 years. But there are 1000s of fans that care if the team is near the top of Big East and contending again.

Understood, but I think we overstate this number. It's much tougher to acquire a new fan than retain a committed one. A lot of former fans have walked away and the fan experience isn't there for them. The "fun" factor of seeing the NFL or even an NBA game doesn't apply to the small-c casual fan from Arlington or Hyattsville who is not an alumnus. A Georgetown game isn't, outcome notwithstanding, a fun experience.

[guru]

Nov 21, 2024 12:32:25 GMT -5 thedragon said:

Nov 21, 2024 11:22:04 GMT -5 guru said:

Got a text from a friend who has no interest in Hoya hoops, but had seen the report about the crowd size last night. It might be the only news about Georgetown basketball people like him see all season. Playing games like that there really just brings more embarrassment upon the program and hinders the rebuild.

Did you see Penn States attendance last night? x.com/Austin_Cree/status/1859386532206891126?t=q1QInduLFHwgPZQ7o3T7tg&s=19

At a state school with an on campus arena. I'm sure your friend sent it to you.

What’s your point?