MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 12:33:29 GMT -5
The Fenlon faux pas was so egregious and insulting. Didn't they have any idea who his parents were and where he grew up? Incredibly tone deaf and ham handed. This was an sad part of our history, but sometime I consider for a moment that this test was necessary for some of the recruits we considered. It was still stupid. Why was Mary and John doing this testing of their own? And why were they not smart enough to be flexible when it should have been obvious that Grant wasn't coming from a household that would have produced questionable academic results?
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Apr 23, 2024 12:37:13 GMT -5
The absolute worst case scenario would be a 4/5 rotation of Fielder/Cook/Sorber, which is actually an upgrade over last year's team since Sorber is taking the minutes vacated by a guy who was largely ineffective in Massoud. Just that change raises our floor a bit. Plus you hope Fielder makes a little jump, not uncommon for a sophomore big man. Who knows, maybe Cook gets a little better too. It would be a better outlook than last year's team, but, maybe not quite as big a jump and certainly not as splashy as we might have hoped. I was doing some pushback against a weeks-old post on HoyaReport that was dismissive of Fielder and when I did some research of my own I saw that not only did Fielder shoot 54% from 2-point range but that he had an impressive overall 57.1 eFG%. What was the biggest surprise however was that he had both the best ORtg and DRtg of all the guys that got regular minutes on the past season Hoya team. One can argue that those numbers can’t be trusted because of sample size, but the numbers are the numbers. If his numbers were bad people would not give him a pass because of sample size. When he made blunders here and there or didn’t finish strong, we don’t overlook it because of the limited number of opportunities he was in a position to affect the game one way or another. It reminded me that one of my biggest beefs with Cooley's coaching this year was his decision to stop the Ish experiment halfway through Big East play and just give Fielder much more of those minutes to prepare him for the future. And then I noticed yesterday as well that Ish’s ORtg was 92.2 compared to Fielder’s 125.7. That is a ridiculously insane difference. When you throw in that Massoud’s DRtg was 117.5 and Fielder’s was 114.3 AND that Fielder shot better from the three-point line than anyone else, it makes me wonder why Cooley stuck with the more limited and less-skilled Massoud that long. Rebounding perhaps? Someone explain this. Fielder picked up quick fouls quite often and Ish (on paper) could guard people on the perimeter better than Fielder could. Plus Ish was paid $300K to come to Georgetown, Cooley was hunting wins and thought a 4th year guy who's had success at the highest level would be more likely to give him something than Fielder, who was brand new to the college game. I'm not saying that argument is correct, just saying I can understand what the rationale would have been.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 23, 2024 12:46:26 GMT -5
I was doing some pushback against a weeks-old post on HoyaReport that was dismissive of Fielder and when I did some research of my own I saw that not only did Fielder shoot 54% from 2-point range but that he had an impressive overall 57.1 eFG%. What was the biggest surprise however was that he had both the best ORtg and DRtg of all the guys that got regular minutes on the past season Hoya team. One can argue that those numbers can’t be trusted because of sample size, but the numbers are the numbers. If his numbers were bad people would not give him a pass because of sample size. When he made blunders here and there or didn’t finish strong, we don’t overlook it because of the limited number of opportunities he was in a position to affect the game one way or another. It reminded me that one of my biggest beefs with Cooley's coaching this year was his decision to stop the Ish experiment halfway through Big East play and just give Fielder much more of those minutes to prepare him for the future. And then I noticed yesterday as well that Ish’s ORtg was 92.2 compared to Fielder’s 125.7. That is a ridiculously insane difference. When you throw in that Massoud’s DRtg was 117.5 and Fielder’s was 114.3 AND that Fielder shot better from the three-point line than anyone else, it makes me wonder why Cooley stuck with the more limited and less-skilled Massoud that long. Rebounding perhaps? Someone explain this. I've heard that Fielder had a knee injury during the second half of last season which limited his minutes. Drew's defense was erratic at times last year -- he actually is a pretty good rim protector but could be bullied down low, isolated on the perimeter and missed his rotations a decent amount. It's a tough one because while his numbers are good, he was definitely a player who could have been taken advantage of last year by a smart coach in a close game. I think with extra strength and work on defense, two of those three issues could be reduced and minimized but the big question will be can he be good enough on the pick and roll or when he gets switched/pulled to the perimeter for it not to be a big enough issue to care?
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Post by hsaxon on Apr 23, 2024 12:50:27 GMT -5
The Fenlon faux pas was so egregious and insulting. Didn't they have any idea who his parents were and where he grew up? Incredibly tone deaf and ham handed. This was an sad part of our history, but sometime I consider for a moment that this test was necessary for some of the recruits we considered. What was the "Fenlon faux pas?"
And why did JT Jr. not pursue Grant Hill and Kenny Anderson?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 12:52:31 GMT -5
I was doing some pushback against a weeks-old post on HoyaReport that was dismissive of Fielder and when I did some research of my own I saw that not only did Fielder shoot 54% from 2-point range but that he had an impressive overall 57.1 eFG%. What was the biggest surprise however was that he had both the best ORtg and DRtg of all the guys that got regular minutes on the past season Hoya team. One can argue that those numbers can’t be trusted because of sample size, but the numbers are the numbers. If his numbers were bad people would not give him a pass because of sample size. When he made blunders here and there or didn’t finish strong, we don’t overlook it because of the limited number of opportunities he was in a position to affect the game one way or another. It reminded me that one of my biggest beefs with Cooley's coaching this year was his decision to stop the Ish experiment halfway through Big East play and just give Fielder much more of those minutes to prepare him for the future. And then I noticed yesterday as well that Ish’s ORtg was 92.2 compared to Fielder’s 125.7. That is a ridiculously insane difference. When you throw in that Massoud’s DRtg was 117.5 and Fielder’s was 114.3 AND that Fielder shot better from the three-point line than anyone else, it makes me wonder why Cooley stuck with the more limited and less-skilled Massoud that long. Rebounding perhaps? Someone explain this. I've heard that Fielder had a knee injury during the second half of last season which limited his minutes. Drew's defense was erratic at times last year -- he actually is a pretty good rim protector but could be bullied down low, isolated on the perimeter and missed his rotations a decent amount. It's a tough one because while his numbers are good, he was definitely a player who could have been taken advantage of last year by a smart coach in a close game. I think with extra strength and work on defense, two of those three issues could be reduced and minimized but the big question will be can he be good enough on the pick and roll or when he gets switched/pulled to the perimeter for it not to be a big enough issue to care? I say he adds too much offensive possibilities and a height advantage to boot for Cooley to sit him just because he may not be able to make it out on every switch against smaller players. Whatever he gives away on one end he can make up on the other. He pretty much opened up the offense for Georgetown in the last third of the season whenever he was on the floor. Defenses had to keep a man on him.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 12:53:53 GMT -5
This was an sad part of our history, but sometime I consider for a moment that this test was necessary for some of the recruits we considered. What was the "Fenlon faux pas?" And why did JT Jr. not pursue Grant Hill and Kenny Anderson? Mary Fenton error is coined the Green Eggs and Ham Debacle by myself. I’ll let others explain.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 23, 2024 12:55:43 GMT -5
This was an sad part of our history, but sometime I consider for a moment that this test was necessary for some of the recruits we considered. It was still stupid. Why was Mary and John doing this testing of their own? And why were they not smart enough to be flexible when it should have been obvious that Grant wasn't coming from a household that would have produced questionable academic results? They probably didn’t want a suburban rich kid born with a silver spoon in his mouth and thought he was soft. Duke at the time probably was the right choice for Grant. Fit right In with Hurley, Laettner and all the other annoying dookies. Too bad Grant had those Anke and foot issues as him and Kobe were supposed to be the bird/magic to carry the torch for the NBA post Jordan.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 23, 2024 12:57:32 GMT -5
I was doing some pushback against a weeks-old post on HoyaReport that was dismissive of Fielder and when I did some research of my own I saw that not only did Fielder shoot 54% from 2-point range but that he had an impressive overall 57.1 eFG%. What was the biggest surprise however was that he had both the best ORtg and DRtg of all the guys that got regular minutes on the past season Hoya team. One can argue that those numbers can’t be trusted because of sample size, but the numbers are the numbers. If his numbers were bad people would not give him a pass because of sample size. When he made blunders here and there or didn’t finish strong, we don’t overlook it because of the limited number of opportunities he was in a position to affect the game one way or another. It reminded me that one of my biggest beefs with Cooley's coaching this year was his decision to stop the Ish experiment halfway through Big East play and just give Fielder much more of those minutes to prepare him for the future. And then I noticed yesterday as well that Ish’s ORtg was 92.2 compared to Fielder’s 125.7. That is a ridiculously insane difference. When you throw in that Massoud’s DRtg was 117.5 and Fielder’s was 114.3 AND that Fielder shot better from the three-point line than anyone else, it makes me wonder why Cooley stuck with the more limited and less-skilled Massoud that long. Rebounding perhaps? Someone explain this. I've heard that Fielder had a knee injury during the second half of last season which limited his minutes. Drew's defense was erratic at times last year -- he actually is a pretty good rim protector but could be bullied down low, isolated on the perimeter and missed his rotations a decent amount. It's a tough one because while his numbers are good, he was definitely a player who could have been taken advantage of last year by a smart coach in a close game. I think with extra strength and work on defense, two of those three issues could be reduced and minimized but the big question will be can he be good enough on the pick and roll or when he gets switched/pulled to the perimeter for it not to be a big enough issue to care? He’s essentially an athletic version of Alex Karaban. Lot easier to do that when you have a 7-2 athletic freak like Clingan to erase any mistakes.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Apr 23, 2024 12:58:38 GMT -5
This was an sad part of our history, but sometime I consider for a moment that this test was necessary for some of the recruits we considered. What was the "Fenlon faux pas?" And why did JT Jr. not pursue Grant Hill and Kenny Anderson? Story even worse than I remembered- that Fenlon knew Hill's background but was so inflexible in administering her reading test. Hill relayed the story in an interview at Esquire Magazine, and the account was neither confirmed nor denied by the only other people in the room that day at McDonough Gymnasium, namely, head coach John Thompson and academic coordinator Mary Fenlon. "Coach Thompson was there, and Miss Mary Fenlon, Georgetown's academic adviser," Hill was quoted as having said. "We're sitting in a room and Miss Fenlon hands me a book and says, 'Read this.' I was a little startled, but I took the book and started reading to myself. Then she says, 'I meant, read out loud.' So I started reading out loud. After a page, she stops me and says, 'Now, tell me what you've read.'" Fenlon's reading test was common to recruits who had come from low income or poor academic environments, a brief examination if they were capable of the level of comprehension Thompson would expect of them. But Grant Hill hadn't grown up in a low income community. Fenlon knew this, of course, but would make no accommodation. www.hoyabasketball.com/features/recruits/g_hill.htmThe story I've heard was that Pops didn't want to kiss the a+* of an 18-year old kid. "Georgetown was his main interest six months ago," said Molloy coach Jack Curran to the Times. "But then the Olympics got in the way of his recruiting and Kenny really wanted to be recruited. At least John had to make some overture to him and he didn't. [Craig Esherick] called several times, but that's not the same." "They called a couple of times but I just didn't think they recruited me the way they should have," Anderson said. www.hoyabasketball.com/features/recruits/k_anderson.htm
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 23, 2024 13:04:38 GMT -5
I say he adds too much offensive possibilities and a height advantage to boot for Cooley to sit him just because he may not be able to make it out on every switch against smaller players. Whatever he gives away on one end he can make up on the other. He pretty much opened up the offense for Georgetown in the last third of the season whenever he was on the floor. Defenses had to keep a man on him. Ideally, he doesn't get abused as a sophomore and it's less of a question. But the trade-off you discuss is really hard to exploit. I think he's a talented offensive player but he's not exactly proven yet to be a high efficiency, high usage player -- it's likely going to be easier for an opponent to run pick and rolls than for Fielder to really punish the opponent. Plus, right now, it doesn't take a player that Fielder has a huge offensive edge on to take advantage of his D -- it's not like they have to run small or something. I love, love, love the little we saw from Fielder last year -- 40% from 3 from a center/big, promising face up / dribble game, and hopefully a few post up moves really make him a great offensive piece going forward. And with him improving and better defenders around him, the lateral quickness issues shouldn't be as big a deal. But I completely understand some of the issues last year. What didn't make a ton of sense until I heard he was nursing an injury is that Massoud or Cook weren't any better.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Apr 23, 2024 13:24:23 GMT -5
I've heard that Fielder had a knee injury during the second half of last season which limited his minutes. Drew's defense was erratic at times last year -- he actually is a pretty good rim protector but could be bullied down low, isolated on the perimeter and missed his rotations a decent amount. It's a tough one because while his numbers are good, he was definitely a player who could have been taken advantage of last year by a smart coach in a close game. I think with extra strength and work on defense, two of those three issues could be reduced and minimized but the big question will be can he be good enough on the pick and roll or when he gets switched/pulled to the perimeter for it not to be a big enough issue to care? He’s essentially an athletic version of Alex Karaban. Lot easier to do that when you have a 7-2 athletic freak like Clingan to erase any mistakes. I think Fielder is more of a post player offensively (with the ability to shoot 3s on PnR) than Karaban is. I also think Fielder guards different guys defensively (primarily posts) than Karaban (who can guard wings). Don't really see that much similarity between the two except for skin color.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 13:27:06 GMT -5
Don’t need Fielder to be too much of a high usage next season. I just need to get more touches to exploit the talent he brings to the floor. Again…the numbers back me up more than it does people’s perceptions of him. If you want to torture yourself, you can watch the games again and look for all the time he is posting up and wanting the ball, but his teammates have…other plans. He needs more touches. Period. Instead we had far less efficient guys putting up more shots. That was a recipe for disaster. Let’s try something different.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 23, 2024 13:27:38 GMT -5
He’s essentially an athletic version of Alex Karaban. Lot easier to do that when you have a 7-2 athletic freak like Clingan to erase any mistakes. I think Fielder is more of a post player offensively (with the ability to shoot 3s on PnR) than Karaban is. I also think Fielder guards different guys defensively (primarily posts) than Karaban (who can guard wings). Don't really see that much similarity between the two except for skin color. Fielders the same color as Isaiah Hartenstein. Not the same as Karaban.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 23, 2024 13:34:22 GMT -5
He’s essentially an athletic version of Alex Karaban. Lot easier to do that when you have a 7-2 athletic freak like Clingan to erase any mistakes. I think Fielder is more of a post player offensively (with the ability to shoot 3s on PnR) than Karaban is. I also think Fielder guards different guys defensively (primarily posts) than Karaban (who can guard wings). Don't really see that much similarity between the two except for skin color. I for one don’t want Fielder to be punished because 80% of teams want to play Small Ball by putting a 6’6 guy at the four spot. Fielder may have difficulties chasing guys like that all over the court but they would not be able contest his long range shots or keep him off the boards for put backs or stop him from posting up. Good coaching means not letting other teams dictate how you play or how your lineup looks like. I pray that Cooley allows Georgetown to exploit its size over teams who have nothing but big guards to play PF. Besides Fielder is not some Don Reid type big who can only play in the paint. He can face up and pull defenders out to the perimeter . A legitimate stretch four.
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wolveribe
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Post by wolveribe on Apr 23, 2024 13:40:17 GMT -5
I don't view Fielder and Karaban as similar. Karaban is more of a perimeter defender where Fielder is not. Fielder seems like a quasi 4/5 that really struggles to defend, particularly out of the paint. While he can step out and hit shots, he's not a guy that is going to create a ton of offense outside of the paint outside of stand still 3 pointers.
Fielder had a promising freshman season but we need to pump the breaks a little bit. He didn't play as much as he could have bc he got abused very often on defense.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 23, 2024 13:46:34 GMT -5
Don’t need Fielder to be too much of a high usage next season. I just need to get more touches to exploit the talent he brings to the floor. Again…the numbers back me up more than it does people’s perceptions of him. If you want to torture yourself, you can watch the games again and look for all the time he is posting up and wanting the ball, but his teammates have…other plans. He needs more touches. Period. Instead we had far less efficient guys putting up more shots. That was a recipe for disaster. Let’s try something different. Is this in response to me? My point was that if you have a player who can exploit a defense but also can be exploited in equal or more measure, in order to make the trade-off work, you really need to pump the ball there and take advantage -- because your opponent is likely going to do so, especially if your weaknesses is pick and roll D (which is probably a staple of the opposing offense). If the opposition is attacking your weak point every time down the court ... you basically need to do the opposite. So if you are a big defensive liability, you need to be high usage in your offensive side of things. And I think Fielder is going to be super useful, especially in pulling his defender out of the lane, but not dominant offensive player useful. That's why it's important that Fielder improve on certain aspects of defense -- which he should, given he was a freshman -- and the team around him learn to better compensate where he can't. Which also, we should with better talent. Because while I like his offensive game, I don't think the trade-off works in late game situations unless those things happen. Luckily, he should improve and the entire team defense should improve so he likely won't have to do that. But the idea that you'll trade off a big defensive liability for getting a guy who creates a defensive liability on the court generally only works with high usage players and when you can compensate for the defensive issues.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 23, 2024 13:48:34 GMT -5
I don't view Fielder and Karaban as similar. Karaban is more of a perimeter defender where Fielder is not. Fielder seems like a quasi 4/5 that really struggles to defend, particularly out of the paint. While he can step out and hit shots, he's not a guy that is going to create a ton of offense outside of the paint outside of stand still 3 pointers. Fielder had a promising freshman season but we need to pump the breaks a little bit. He didn't play as much as he could have bc he got abused very often on defense. Karaban looks better than he is because he had Sanogo/Clingan to cover for his mistakes defensively. Fielder would look equally as good defensively if he had an elite rim protector behind him. Fielder is a more explosive, athletic, physical version of the soft Karaban. There is a reason Cooley recruited both of them.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 23, 2024 13:49:04 GMT -5
I think Fielder is more of a post player offensively (with the ability to shoot 3s on PnR) than Karaban is. I also think Fielder guards different guys defensively (primarily posts) than Karaban (who can guard wings). Don't really see that much similarity between the two except for skin color. I for one don’t want Fielder to be punished because 80% of teams want to play Small Ball by putting a 6’6 guy at the four spot. Fielder may have difficulties chasing guys like that all over the court but they would not be able contest his long range shots or keep him off the boards for put backs or stop him from posting up. Good coaching means not letting other teams dictate how you play or how your lineup looks like. I pray that Cooley allows Georgetown to exploit its size over teams who have nothing but big guards to play PF. Besides Fielder is not some Don Reid type big who can only play in the paint. He can face up and pull defenders out to the perimeter . A legitimate stretch four. Not letting other teams dictate how you play requires that your players execute successfully and punish the opponent for not adapting to you. No successful execution relative to your opponents, and you will be forced to adapt to them.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 23, 2024 13:52:53 GMT -5
I for one don’t want Fielder to be punished because 80% of teams want to play Small Ball by putting a 6’6 guy at the four spot. Fielder may have difficulties chasing guys like that all over the court but they would not be able contest his long range shots or keep him off the boards for put backs or stop him from posting up. Good coaching means not letting other teams dictate how you play or how your lineup looks like. I pray that Cooley allows Georgetown to exploit its size over teams who have nothing but big guards to play PF. Besides Fielder is not some Don Reid type big who can only play in the paint. He can face up and pull defenders out to the perimeter . A legitimate stretch four. He's not a legitimate stretch four until he can somewhat defend fours, and that includes the huge number of undersized or stretch fours. He's got to create bigger mismatches than he gives up. While the coaching staff can help with that, the players needs to step up as well as improve defensively as much as they can. Play smart, rotate properly, work on lateral movement. They also need to effectively punish the other side -- to your point, that means working off the ball in terms of making cuts and offensive rebounding. Fielder isn't likely to be the center of the offense, so he needs to punish a smaller 4 if he players there without the ball. If he does all that, he'll be fine. If he doesn't, there's only so much that coaching can compensate. The biggest thing that would help Fielder's defense aside from his own improvement, frankly, is a teammate down low. Either someone to allow him to pressure outside that can help defend when he's beat or a 4 man who can allow him to play center.
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wolveribe
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Post by wolveribe on Apr 23, 2024 14:02:37 GMT -5
I don't view Fielder and Karaban as similar. Karaban is more of a perimeter defender where Fielder is not. Fielder seems like a quasi 4/5 that really struggles to defend, particularly out of the paint. While he can step out and hit shots, he's not a guy that is going to create a ton of offense outside of the paint outside of stand still 3 pointers. Fielder had a promising freshman season but we need to pump the breaks a little bit. He didn't play as much as he could have bc he got abused very often on defense. Karaban looks better than he is because he had Sanogo/Clingan to cover for his mistakes defensively. Fielder would look equally as good defensively if he had an elite rim protector behind him. Fielder is a more explosive, athletic, physical version of the soft Karaban. There is a reason Cooley recruited both of them. Not arguing that Karaban doesnt get helped by having rim protection but Fielder still got blown by with ease way too often. I dont view Fielder as more athletic
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