hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 14, 2024 12:26:29 GMT -5
I don't think you let anyone "test the market." If any want to enter the portal, best of luck, but we're not holding a spot for you. Nobody in the current group is irreplaceable. I think all 5 should be welcomed back, but nobody's position/role/minutes should be protected. If we can upgrade any position via the portal, we have to do so. That's just how it goes when you finish 2-18, some things need to change and that may mean some hurt feelings. My priority order for retention would be: 1. Fielder-maybe counter-intuitive since he received the least PT of the 5, but I think he has the highest ceiling and looked good down the stretch. 6'10 guys who shoot better than 40% from 3 have a lot of value. He's going to develop, and I'd like it to be here. 2. Styles-he showed a lot at times despite also having some forgettable games. But of the 5 hes the one I feel most certain could be a starter on a good team. Hopefully McKenna and Williams push him a little and he builds on the jump he made this year. 3. Brumbaugh- he was one of the most productive freshmen in the conference and he has 3 more years of eligibility. I don't see him being ready to be a starter on a good team next year, but would like to hang onto him to see if he'll develop as a backup next year and maybe be ready to lead the team as a RS junior. The outline of a very good upperclassman lead guard is there, he just needs to grow into it. 4. Cook- easy player to root for, but his defensive shortcomings are the root of our historically bad defense, IMHO. And he can't do much on offense unless he's right at the rim. Basically he's a rebound/hustle player and that's it. I can live with that as a 9th man, but is that a role he'll be content with? If he's a starter again next year I think it's trouble. I'd rather see Fielder and Sorber get the minutes along with whatever transfer big we're able to land. 5. Epps- again counter-intuitive because of his counting stats, but I just don't believe you win with tweener guards who dominate the ball, are inefficient shooters, and who don't excel in other areas (defense, point guard responsibilities, etc.). Like Cook I would welcome him back in a much smaller role, but something tells me he may not be happy going from this year where he had carte blanche to being a 6th man or something as a junior. But I think that's his destiny--either a microwave 6th man on a decent or better team, or a hot and cold ball dominator on a bad one. And if he's going to be the latter, I don't want it to be here (again). In a perfect world, all of these guys are back and they embrace their new roles when we add new and better players via portal. In the real world, that doesn't feel too likely. Hopefully the NIL budget is spread so that players with bright futures can be retained and players who aren't likely to be winners (even if they are strong in one or two areas) are de-prioritized and either embrace a new role or find a new situation. I completely agree with this. Better guard play is a must. I'm in full agreement with RBHoya as well, with the only potential difference being a consideration of Brumbaugh as #2 ahead of Styles. The main reason is because Brumbaugh has 3 years of eligibility remaining compared to Styles' 1. And not that Styles likely requires a ton of NIL $, but Brumbaugh is on record saying it's not a major consideration for him, and given his family's house being in the Georgetown neighborhood, you would think it wouldn't take much financially to entice him to stay 3 more years.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 14, 2024 12:34:17 GMT -5
I completely agree with this. Better guard play is a must. I'm in full agreement with RBHoya as well, with the only potential difference being a consideration of Brumbaugh as #2 ahead of Styles. The main reason is because Brumbaugh has 3 years of eligibility remaining compared to Styles' 1. And not that Styles likely requires a ton of NIL $, but Brumbaugh is on record saying it's not a major consideration for him, and given his family's house being in the Georgetown neighborhood, you would think it wouldn't take much financially to entice him to stay 3 more years. I don’t know how it is for Rowan, but it must suck to have Teammate X making $300,000 and having all kinds of fun with it, while Rowan has to ask his parents for $ to take someone on a date, and knowing he has been as valuable as Teammate X.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 14, 2024 13:14:57 GMT -5
Here is another interesting point (at least to me):
Cooley has already experienced getting screwed late via the portal from his experience with Akok. Hopefully he learned from that and will develop redundant plans.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Mar 14, 2024 13:58:00 GMT -5
I will say this on Rowan. I hope he stays and accepts a lesser role, but I understand why in today's world that's unlikely. Having said that, it's been evident since Day 1 that Cooley didn't trust Rowan as his PG. Cooley made subtle comments at presser throughout year about needing to trust his PG. About how a PG should be an extension of the coach and a leader. Then he'd mention how Rowan needs to be more vocal. The shorter leash he had for Rowan after mistakes. That doesn't mean a player can't grow and earn that trust - but we're in need to turn around the ship immediately mode after the last decade and the resources invested, and it feels like a relationship breakup that is about "bad timing". Cooley can't afford to be patient and Rowan wants to play more not less. I like Rowan, and hope he stays, but I am not sure he will be ready to be the starting point guard on a team contending to win the Big East next year. If that is your goal, then I think you need to bring in a point guard who has already shown he can do what you need him to do at that very important position. I think Rowan developed well during parts of this season, but he still seems to struggle with his confidence in some games. He makes a few bad plays and he seems to get tentative and you just can not have that with your point guard on a good team. I am hopeful that with more strength and playing time that confidence grows and he can become that point guard we all want, but I am not sure you can count on that for next year from him. There would still be a roll for him on the team next year, but I don't see it as the primary point guard. For that matter Epps is not a primary point guard either. He can play PG for a few minutes, but he needs to play off the ball most of the time.
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bluegray79
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Post by bluegray79 on Mar 14, 2024 14:02:42 GMT -5
I really hope we keep Styles (high ceiling, flashes of elite defender, athletic +, high ceiling) and Brumbaugh (6-4 PG, 3 years eligibility, high bball IQ, does a lot away from the ball, with better talent around him will find high % shots), Fielder, of course. Cook & Epps if they are willing to fit a new role.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 14, 2024 14:16:32 GMT -5
I dont disagree on most RBHoya - I just think the reality is that Epps will be back, and be a starter, so we have to build in that regard. To me, Cooleys job with Epps is showing him that an efficient 15 to 20 on a better team is just as valuable as 30 on a dogsh*t team. I've heard Epps is a willing learner and is coachable. A lot of this year Epps was out of necessity. Less minutes. Less of an offensive burden. And having him not be #1,2 and 3 on a scouting report should do wonders for his development. It could be--this is basically the bull case for Epps. That he had no choice but to launch a lot of shots this year because the team was bad, and that the shot volume will decrease when he's out there with better players. He'll have more clean looks when he's surrounded by better pieces and he'll have to force it less. The good shots stay, the bad shots decrease, the efficiency numbers improve and everybody's happy. It is certainly possible. It is also possible that shooting a lot is inherent to his game, it's who he is as a basketball player, and he's going to do that no matter who is out there with him. His shooting %s at Illinois were pretty comparable to what he did this year in a smaller role and on a tournament-caliber team. Who really knows? A lot depends on his character and whether he is willing to embrace a less prominent role in the name of efficiency and doing what's best for the team. If the staff really believes he is selfless in that way, great. But I personally don't think that trying to build a team around him as a centerpiece is a recipe for success. If we're going anywhere and he's on the team, he's going to have to adapt his game a lot. And that's difficult to do for a lot of guys that play the way he does.
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Post by Lethal_Interjection on Mar 14, 2024 14:57:14 GMT -5
So therefore, Jayden Epps was Primo Spears 2.0 this year. GU will definitely need better talent going forward.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 14, 2024 15:00:42 GMT -5
The real question for me on Epps is was the system designed to give him a lot of leeway/shots because he was the only guy to create, or was he just freestyling and doing his own thing? With Primo Spears last year, it was obvious that he readily ignored Ewing instructions on occasion. I certainly remember James Akinjo also ignoring Ewing. I am not so sure that's the case with Epps, though.
That said, Epps is a much better player than Primo Spears. So no matter what role he plays, he's not Primo Spears 2.0.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 14, 2024 15:08:34 GMT -5
I will say this on Rowan. I hope he stays and accepts a lesser role, but I understand why in today's world that's unlikely. Having said that, it's been evident since Day 1 that Cooley didn't trust Rowan as his PG. Cooley made subtle comments at presser throughout year about needing to trust his PG. About how a PG should be an extension of the coach and a leader. Then he'd mention how Rowan needs to be more vocal. The shorter leash he had for Rowan after mistakes. That doesn't mean a player can't grow and earn that trust - but we're in need to turn around the ship immediately mode after the last decade and the resources invested, and it feels like a relationship breakup that is about "bad timing". Cooley can't afford to be patient and Rowan wants to play more not less. I like Rowan, and hope he stays, but I am not sure he will be ready to be the starting point guard on a team contending to win the Big East next year. If that is your goal, then I think you need to bring in a point guard who has already shown he can do what you need him to do at that very important position. I think Rowan developed well during parts of this season, but he still seems to struggle with his confidence in some games. He makes a few bad plays and he seems to get tentative and you just can not have that with your point guard on a good team. I am hopeful that with more strength and playing time that confidence grows and he can become that point guard we all want, but I am not sure you can count on that for next year from him. There would still be a roll for him on the team next year, but I don't see it as the primary point guard. For that matter Epps is not a primary point guard either. He can play PG for a few minutes, but he needs to play off the ball most of the time. Contending to win the Big East? Thank you for the best laugh of the day.
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Post by hoyariv71 on Mar 14, 2024 15:12:39 GMT -5
You could hear Cooley yell at Rowan a few games ago that his job was to get people involved. The past few he has come in and tried to shoot without even making a pass. I think at this point, Cooley doesn’t see Towan as a clear out player, let the game come to him.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 14, 2024 15:13:40 GMT -5
I agree pretty wholeheartedly with RB's post, although maybe I'm a bit higher on Epps than him. The main thing, I think, is that (a) we can't view any of the current guys as untouchable and decline to recruit over them if opportunities are there, while (b) for stability's sake, I think we should hope to retain as many of them as we can--all five if possible, but at least three or four.
If we keep all five and add the four freshman, that still leaves four scholarships for transfers, which should be more than enough to fill out the roster with players who improve on the current talent level. We shouldn't need to lose any of these guys to make room for the guys we'll want to add.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 14, 2024 15:17:01 GMT -5
The real question for me on Epps is was the system designed to give him a lot of leeway/shots because he was the only guy to create, or was he just freestyling and doing his own thing? With Primo Spears last year, it was obvious that he readily ignored Ewing instructions on occasion. I certainly remember James Akinjo also ignoring Ewing. I am not so sure that's the case with Epps, though. That said, Epps is a much better player than Primo Spears. So no matter what role he plays, he's not Primo Spears 2.0. 2.0 versions are usually better versions of the original. So, yes, he was Primo Spears 2.0 and you agree.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 14, 2024 16:13:47 GMT -5
I don't think you let anyone "test the market." If any want to enter the portal, best of luck, but we're not holding a spot for you. Nobody in the current group is irreplaceable. I think all 5 should be welcomed back, but nobody's position/role/minutes should be protected. If we can upgrade any position via the portal, we have to do so. That's just how it goes when you finish 2-18, some things need to change and that may mean some hurt feelings. My priority order for retention would be: 1. Fielder-maybe counter-intuitive since he received the least PT of the 5, but I think he has the highest ceiling and looked good down the stretch. 6'10 guys who shoot better than 40% from 3 have a lot of value. He's going to develop, and I'd like it to be here. 2. Styles-he showed a lot at times despite also having some forgettable games. But of the 5 hes the one I feel most certain could be a starter on a good team. Hopefully McKenna and Williams push him a little and he builds on the jump he made this year. 3. Brumbaugh- he was one of the most productive freshmen in the conference and he has 3 more years of eligibility. I don't see him being ready to be a starter on a good team next year, but would like to hang onto him to see if he'll develop as a backup next year and maybe be ready to lead the team as a RS junior. The outline of a very good upperclassman lead guard is there, he just needs to grow into it. 4. Cook- easy player to root for, but his defensive shortcomings are the root of our historically bad defense, IMHO. And he can't do much on offense unless he's right at the rim. Basically he's a rebound/hustle player and that's it. I can live with that as a 9th man, but is that a role he'll be content with? If he's a starter again next year I think it's trouble. I'd rather see Fielder and Sorber get the minutes along with whatever transfer big we're able to land. 5. Epps- again counter-intuitive because of his counting stats, but I just don't believe you win with tweener guards who dominate the ball, are inefficient shooters, and who don't excel in other areas (defense, point guard responsibilities, etc.). Like Cook I would welcome him back in a much smaller role, but something tells me he may not be happy going from this year where he had carte blanche to being a 6th man or something as a junior. But I think that's his destiny--either a microwave 6th man on a decent or better team, or a hot and cold ball dominator on a bad one. And if he's going to be the latter, I don't want it to be here (again). In a perfect world, all of these guys are back and they embrace their new roles when we add new and better players via portal. In the real world, that doesn't feel too likely. Hopefully the NIL budget is spread so that players with bright futures can be retained and players who aren't likely to be winners (even if they are strong in one or two areas) are de-prioritized and either embrace a new role or find a new situation. Solid comments on the priority list and agree about the "test the waters" comment. I think the world we live in now will require some level of re-recruitment for any current player to come back; you just can't assume anyone is 100% content and will stay. You can easily point to some pre-existing relationship between any player and Cooley or one of the assistants, but at the end of the day the almighty dollar talks and everyone has a price. As far as prioritizing goes, would probably have Rowan 2 and Cook is a distant 5. If we're able to turn Epps/Styles into 4th/5th options, they could thrive in those roles for a halfway contending team. But, I also realize that's going to take a significant jump in both adding talent elsewhere on the roster and substantial development on the parts of Fielder/Rowan. Would not consider bringing anyone else back other than those 5. I know some have expiring eligibility so it's a moot point, but none of the other guys are even rotation-level players on a team that has NCAA aspirations. I am still unsure how KSU got so much mileage out of Ish last season. I would also take a long and hard look about retention from a supporting staff perspective. Obviously we have to fill an assistant slot with Thomas leaving, but I would also expect a thorough review of what went wrong in Year 1 from a strength and conditioning perspective. This was a deficiency all season long and not something I would have expected to continue to be a problem under a new staff. If outside help is needed to improve in this area, I'd expect that to happen sooner rather than later so that the work can begin ASAP. We might not be the most talented group even next season, but I am done being pushed aside, thrown around, and in general just being bullied. The onus is on Ed to get back to basics and build an identity of toughness and grit, which is something I thought was the hallmark of his previous teams.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 14, 2024 16:19:53 GMT -5
Cooley has already experienced getting screwed late via the portal from his experience with Akok. Hopefully he learned from that and will develop redundant plans. The Akok situation won't happen again - there is an earlier portal entry cutoff, it now applies to grads as well, and I don't think we have anyone who can graduate.
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traversb
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Post by traversb on Mar 14, 2024 16:20:12 GMT -5
I dont disagree on most RBHoya - I just think the reality is that Epps will be back, and be a starter, so we have to build in that regard. To me, Cooleys job with Epps is showing him that an efficient 15 to 20 on a better team is just as valuable as 30 on a dogsh*t team. I've heard Epps is a willing learner and is coachable. A lot of this year Epps was out of necessity. Less minutes. Less of an offensive burden. And having him not be #1,2 and 3 on a scouting report should do wonders for his development. I think you heard wrong as the reason he is here is that he was told that at Illinois and didn't like it. He is not a winning player. He is a me first player. He has dreams of the league while having a profile that doesn't work there so he is going to try to score score score his way there. Now the reality is that you are right and he will be back and he will likely stay the same because Cooley will have a hard time dialing him back after giving him a long leash. Like RB has pointed out building around him is very difficult. Pairing him with Styles is a recipe for defensive disaster. I also can't see great but more efficient scorers wanting to play with him but I guess we will find out. In reality a better Rowan is exactly the type of player you need next to him. Cooley is getting paid handsomely to figure this problem out.
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traversb
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Post by traversb on Mar 14, 2024 16:29:36 GMT -5
You could hear Cooley yell at Rowan a few games ago that his job was to get people involved. The past few he has come in and tried to shoot without even making a pass. I think at this point, Cooley doesn’t see Towan as a clear out player, let the game come to him. It became clear that late Rowan decided enough with watching the other guy whose a worse shooter than me shoot when the season is over. If he did make the decision to leave the end of the season felt more like an audition for him and it's hard to blame him.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 14, 2024 16:34:03 GMT -5
Cooley has already experienced getting screwed late via the portal from his experience with Akok. Hopefully he learned from that and will develop redundant plans. The Akok situation won't happen again - there is an earlier portal entry cutoff, it now applies to grads as well, and I don't think we have anyone who can graduate. Not sure I agree. Imagine a player you were counting on in late March deciding to leave in June when someone gets in his ear about a bigger offer.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 14, 2024 16:35:23 GMT -5
The Akok situation won't happen again - there is an earlier portal entry cutoff, it now applies to grads as well, and I don't think we have anyone who can graduate. Not sure I agree. Imagine a player you were counting on in late March deciding to leave in June when someone gets in his ear about a bigger offer. Shhhh. TC loves stepping on rakes at every turn. Just let him go.
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kettlehill
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Post by kettlehill on Mar 14, 2024 16:54:06 GMT -5
I do not see Epp's ball dominance as a result of some inclination on his own. This was Cooley realizing that Epps was- by far- his best O option and encouraging him to go with his worst Primo like play. Here is a fact- amid all the Epps bashing- he is an objectively elite talent going to the rim. We have never had- in my memory- anything like his quality in that area ( outside of AI ). His three point shooting when on a heater is elite. When not-STOP. And on a good team with good on/off court leadership he will ( stop ). My point is- let's not dump Epps just because he was the focal point on a lousy team. He is an undersized shooting guard in college-so what- there have been a whole lot of those guys on terrific teams
Having said all that- if Epps' retention means RB's departure...I do not like that at all. I am hoping that RB and EC have a positive relationship that understands EC's weird handling of Epps, and that RB is the future PG.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 14, 2024 17:01:52 GMT -5
The Akok situation won't happen again - there is an earlier portal entry cutoff, it now applies to grads as well, and I don't think we have anyone who can graduate. Not sure I agree. Imagine a player you were counting on in late March deciding to leave in June when someone gets in his ear about a bigger offer. They can't. This year the portal closes on May 1, so if you get a surprise entry, there are still going to be players from other teams entering the portal at that point - you'd be able to replace them with someone.
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