Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jul 25, 2022 3:54:56 GMT -5
On the day that Gil Hodges finally got inducted into the Hall (along with among others, Buck O’Neil, Minnie Minoso, Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva) Eduardo Perez offers that the highlight was baseball writer Tim Kurkjian.
And that ladies and gentlemen is, in a nutshell, why ESPN sucks and ruins everything it touches.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 25, 2022 18:59:29 GMT -5
On the day that Gil Hodges finally got inducted into the Hall (along with among others, Buck O’Neil, Minnie Minoso, Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva) Eduardo Perez offers that the highlight was baseball writer Tim Kurkjian. And that ladies and gentlemen is, in a nutshell, why ESPN sucks and ruins everything it touches. Not to mention some guy named David Ortiz. Big, big thumbs up for Gil and Minnie for me, but Buck O'Neil, too. |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jul 26, 2022 7:01:51 GMT -5
On the day that Gil Hodges finally got inducted into the Hall (along with among others, Buck O’Neil, Minnie Minoso, Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva) Eduardo Perez offers that the highlight was baseball writer Tim Kurkjian. And that ladies and gentlemen is, in a nutshell, why ESPN sucks and ruins everything it touches. Not to mention some guy named David Ortiz. Big, big thumbs up for Gil and Minnie for me, but Buck O'Neil, too. No slight to Ortiz intended. I was highlighting the folks who had waited (shamefully in most cases). |
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 26, 2022 19:41:19 GMT -5
Not to mention some guy named David Ortiz. Big, big thumbs up for Gil and Minnie for me, but Buck O'Neil, too. No slight to Ortiz intended. I was highlighting the folks who had waited (shamefully in most cases). Maury Wills. Maybe it's my Dodger Blue showing, but he and Luis Aparicio absolutely changed the way the game was played. Luis has (deservedly) been in the Hall for years. What about Maury? Without Maury, do we get Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson? |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 26, 2022 19:55:18 GMT -5
Maury Wills. Maybe it's my Dodger Blue showing, but he and Luis Aparicio absolutely changed the way the game was played. Luis has (deservedly) been in the Hall for years. What about Maury? Without Maury, do we get Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson? Maury Wills and Steve Garvey are longtime omissions. In both cases the BBWAA has held them back due to off-field incidents: Wills' drug use in the 1980's and Garvey's extramarital affairs. |
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 26, 2022 20:25:52 GMT -5
Maury Wills. Maybe it's my Dodger Blue showing, but he and Luis Aparicio absolutely changed the way the game was played. Luis has (deservedly) been in the Hall for years. What about Maury? Without Maury, do we get Lou Brock and Rickey Henderson? Maury Wills and Steve Garvey are longtime omissions. In both cases the BBWAA has held them back due to off-field incidents: Wills' drug use in the 1980's and Garvey's extramarital affairs. I forgive him. As for Garvey, I'm sure no other Hall of Famers ever had extramarital affairs. And why not? Because they thought about the game. Booze and broads may be great, etc. (Damn Yankees, for those of you who don't go back that far). |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 27, 2022 12:04:06 GMT -5
Maury Wills and Steve Garvey are longtime omissions. In both cases the BBWAA has held them back due to off-field incidents: Wills' drug use in the 1980's and Garvey's extramarital affairs. I forgive him. As for Garvey, I'm sure no other Hall of Famers ever had extramarital affairs. And why not? Because they thought about the game. Booze and broads may be great, etc. (Damn Yankees, for those of you who don't go back that far). It's not the affairs. Mickey Mantle (and many, many others) would find that hilarious. It's his numbers (the on-field ones, that is). |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 27, 2022 14:03:37 GMT -5
I forgive him. As for Garvey, I'm sure no other Hall of Famers ever had extramarital affairs. And why not? Because they thought about the game. Booze and broads may be great, etc. (Damn Yankees, for those of you who don't go back that far). It's not the affairs. Mickey Mantle (and many, many others) would find that hilarious. It's his numbers (the on-field ones, that is). Garvey's numbers: .294 batting average, .994 fielding, eight consecutive seasons over 100 RBI, 10x All-Star. Of 64 players in baseball history with 10 or more All-Star appearances, 54 are in the Hall. Excepting Pete Rose and the Steroid Era players still out of the Hall (Bonds. McGwire, etc.), he is one of just three players not in. In fact, in 1995, seven players who scored below Garvey (including Ron Santo, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso) eventually got in. Players of the 1970's do not fare well in SABR-era stats and Garvey is a prime example. Garvey scores only a 38.0 WAR in an era of lower scoring and comparatively lower production from first basemen. His OPS was .775. Off-field issues are not a prime factor for the writers but there is little no doubt that it comes into play. Garvey was not well liked by some in baseball. It certainly held Dick Allen back for years, even with a .912 OPS. www.cooperstowncred.com/dick-allen-another-chance-hall-of-fame/ |
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 27, 2022 19:02:09 GMT -5
It's not the affairs. Mickey Mantle (and many, many others) would find that hilarious. It's his numbers (the on-field ones, that is). Garvey's numbers: .294 batting average, .994 fielding, eight consecutive seasons over 100 RBI, 10x All-Star. Of 64 players in baseball history with 10 or more All-Star appearances, 54 are in the Hall. Excepting Pete Rose and the Steroid Era players still out of the Hall (Bonds. McGwire, etc.), he is one of just three players not in. In fact, in 1995, seven players who scored below Garvey (including Ron Santo, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso) eventually got in. Players of the 1970's do not fare well in SABR-era stats and Garvey is a prime example. Garvey scores only a 38.0 WAR in an era of lower scoring and comparatively lower production from first basemen. His OPS was .775. Off-field issues are not a prime factor for the writers but there is little no doubt that it comes into play. Garvey was not well liked by some in baseball. It certainly held Dick Allen back for years, even with a .912 OPS. www.cooperstowncred.com/dick-allen-another-chance-hall-of-fame/The funny thing about Garvey is that during his playing days he was regarded as too much of a goodie two shoes, although he was very popular here in LA. I guess the difference between he and Mickey (and Whitey, too, for that matter) is that he seemed holier than thou and not "one of the boys." So I guess his hypocrisy level was regarded as pretty high. But hey, that wasn't my original premise. Maury Wills! |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 27, 2022 19:50:34 GMT -5
Garvey's numbers: .294 batting average, .994 fielding, eight consecutive seasons over 100 RBI, 10x All-Star. Of 64 players in baseball history with 10 or more All-Star appearances, 54 are in the Hall. Excepting Pete Rose and the Steroid Era players still out of the Hall (Bonds. McGwire, etc.), he is one of just three players not in. In fact, in 1995, seven players who scored below Garvey (including Ron Santo, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso) eventually got in. Players of the 1970's do not fare well in SABR-era stats and Garvey is a prime example. Garvey scores only a 38.0 WAR in an era of lower scoring and comparatively lower production from first basemen. His OPS was .775. Off-field issues are not a prime factor for the writers but there is little no doubt that it comes into play. Garvey was not well liked by some in baseball. It certainly held Dick Allen back for years, even with a .912 OPS. www.cooperstowncred.com/dick-allen-another-chance-hall-of-fame/The funny thing about Garvey is that during his playing days he was regarded as too much of a goodie two shoes, although he was very popular here in LA. I guess the difference between he and Mickey (and Whitey, too, for that matter) is that he seemed holier than thou and not "one of the boys." So I guess his hypocrisy level was regarded as pretty high. But hey, that wasn't my original premise. Maury Wills! The bigger difference is that Mickey and Whitey were far better players. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 27, 2022 19:59:20 GMT -5
It's not the affairs. Mickey Mantle (and many, many others) would find that hilarious. It's his numbers (the on-field ones, that is). Garvey's numbers: .294 batting average, .994 fielding, eight consecutive seasons over 100 RBI, 10x All-Star. Of 64 players in baseball history with 10 or more All-Star appearances, 54 are in the Hall. Excepting Pete Rose and the Steroid Era players still out of the Hall (Bonds. McGwire, etc.), he is one of just three players not in. In fact, in 1995, seven players who scored below Garvey (including Ron Santo, Tony Oliva, Jim Kaat and Minnie Minoso) eventually got in. Players of the 1970's do not fare well in SABR-era stats and Garvey is a prime example. Garvey scores only a 38.0 WAR in an era of lower scoring and comparatively lower production from first basemen. His OPS was .775. Off-field issues are not a prime factor for the writers but there is little no doubt that it comes into play. Garvey was not well liked by some in baseball. It certainly held Dick Allen back for years, even with a .912 OPS. www.cooperstowncred.com/dick-allen-another-chance-hall-of-fame/The only generally accepted shoe-in Hall number that he made was the RBI one. He wasn't a 300 hitter, he didn't have 3000 hits and he didn't hit for a ton of power. Also, he wasn't a great OBP guy. Defense is always overlooked with regard to the Hall. It's talked about when a guy is already going in but, in terms of consideration, it's, seemingly, not weighted nearly as heavily as any of the offensive categories. If he had been on teams that won more than one World Series, he'd likely have made it right away. Also, he didn't have 8 consecutive seasons of 100 RBI. That didn't sound right so I checked. He had 5 in his entire career. 4 of them were consecutive. And, winning only 4 GG doesn't help. That's nothing to sneeze at, obviously. But, it's not all time great. Mattingly won more than that in a far shorter career. Not that Mattingly should be in the Hall. He shouldn't. Though, in his prime, he was more dominant than Garvey was in his (it's not particularly close). Also, there are players more deserving that aren't in. Dale Murphy being one of the more glaring examples. I'm not saying Garvey shouldn't be in. No one would take issue with his inclusion. But, the argument for him isn't overly strong. |
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tgo
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Post by tgo on Jul 28, 2022 12:45:12 GMT -5
Garvey's daughter was class of '96
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jul 28, 2022 15:03:03 GMT -5
It is really a question of Hall of Fame vs Hall of Really Good.
Garvey gets In the latter.
The HOF has become a bit of joke in recent years. If they feel compelled to keep letting in lesser lights, there should be separate floors or wings because there is no way in Hell that Harold Baines belongs In the same Hall as Willie Mays, Henry Aaron, etc.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jul 28, 2022 19:12:33 GMT -5
The funny thing about Garvey is that during his playing days he was regarded as too much of a goodie two shoes, although he was very popular here in LA. I guess the difference between he and Mickey (and Whitey, too, for that matter) is that he seemed holier than thou and not "one of the boys." So I guess his hypocrisy level was regarded as pretty high. But hey, that wasn't my original premise. Maury Wills! The bigger difference is that Mickey and Whitey were far better players. There's no question about that, but they're also Yankees, and rightly or wrongly, that gives them special dispensation. |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jul 28, 2022 19:22:42 GMT -5
The funny thing about Garvey is that during his playing days he was regarded as too much of a goodie two shoes, although he was very popular here in LA. I guess the difference between he and Mickey (and Whitey, too, for that matter) is that he seemed holier than thou and not "one of the boys." So I guess his hypocrisy level was regarded as pretty high. But hey, that wasn't my original premise. Maury Wills! The bigger difference is that Mickey and Whitey were far better players. And stars of several WS champions. Mantle was on 7 and Ford 6. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 28, 2022 20:47:16 GMT -5
The bigger difference is that Mickey and Whitey were far better players. There's no question about that, but they're also Yankees, and rightly or wrongly, that gives them special dispensation. Fair point. But, neither of them needed the help. Especially Mickey. That said, Kirby Puckett is in and Don Mattingly isn't. Personally, I think neither should be in even though I loved Mattingly as a kid. As Elvado said, Hall of Very Good players. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 28, 2022 20:49:01 GMT -5
It is really a question of Hall of Fame vs Hall of Really Good. Garvey gets In the latter. The HOF has become a bit of joke in recent years. If they feel compelled to keep letting in lesser lights, there should be separate floors or wings because there is no way in Hell that Harold Baines belongs In the same Hall as Willie Mays, Henry Aaron, etc. I agree with this. Baines was a very good player for a VERY long time. That's the problem with cumulative stats (to some degree). |
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 2, 2022 20:25:18 GMT -5
As a Chisox fan, I love Baines. However....
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