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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2022 20:55:57 GMT -5
In conference? Yeah, about that. How did he do coaching lesser talent with the Celtics? He looked well below average. You need dudes. NBA is a very different situation such as having GMs I know I’m crossing years here but for context Iona in pitino’s first year (20/21) wins their conference and goes toe to toe with Alabama until towards the end and sure loses by 13 after 1 point spread at the half. 8 months later he beats them in a rematch. And this year we lost to butler by 14, if we had played Alabama of that season with this team, we would’ve been humiliated on a whole other level without a doubt in my mind. And I don’t know the specifics of that Iona team in like recruiting rankings but I find it hard to believe that they were significantly more talented than this group, if at all more talented. Coaching absolutely matters and a coach especially a new one needs to be able to makes changes and define a style and a good environment for players. If you need a team full of 4 star and 5 star recruits to make the tournament or even NIT then you are in the wrong business. @etomic When he coached with the Knicks he won a division title. What was the difference? He was the same coach in both situations. The Zion’s team lost by 13 to Bama. It also lost to Morgan St, Quinnipiac, and Fairfield.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 6, 2022 21:00:39 GMT -5
Upgrading the talent level in the program should be priority #1. Doesn't matter who your coach is if you don't have the horses to compete. Talent wins in college basketball. You could have had the best coach in the world and he probably pulls around 4 conference wins out of last years team tops. I doubt many would find that acceptable. Have to upgrade the talent then you can focus on the other parts. I think you are right that we underachieved by about 5 wins. Teams that underachieve by 5 wins fire their coaches unless it was an injury problem. I think based on paper going into a season we have underachieved by about 5 wins every year. He constantly plays the wrong guys for the wrong amount of time. If you look at the analytics he looks incompetent and the record backs that up. His systems are broken which just compounds the problems. Of course we need to upgrade talent and there are two ways to do that. One is bring in more talent. The other is to get old with lesser talented guy that develop. Ewing has failed at the latter with his own recruits but been decent at getting others. Ewing has also brought in plenty of talented recruits but few have got old here. That is on him. Since the mass exodus it seems like he has no clue or no plan. Good players that shouldn't be leaving keep leaving and being filled with worse players. A few were out of his control but most weren't. I am of the belief that a couple of the players we just lost will be solid players as they get older. Some needed to go. I am worried that a few that stayed will get more playing time than they should or could scare away better replacements. Who knows they could be on the way out as well. I do not agree that he is developing guys any more than physical maturity and experience is improving them. I do agree we need a severe upgrade in talent because our head coach puts us at an extreme disadvantage.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 6, 2022 21:09:27 GMT -5
Upgrading the talent level in the program should be priority #1. Doesn't matter who your coach is if you don't have the horses to compete. Talent wins in college basketball. You could have had the best coach in the world and he probably pulls around 4 conference wins out of last years team tops. I doubt many would find that acceptable. Have to upgrade the talent then you can focus on the other parts. If "Talent wins in college basketball" (it does, you're right), then a coach's #1 job should be getting talent. Beyond his miserable coaching, Ewing has recruited at an abysmal level. Shockingly bad. I follow recruiting pretty closely and more than half of our signees under Ewing are guys I had never heard of. He has recruited good enough if he was a good coach and could keep the guys he brought in. We are usually middle of the Big East pack at worst in recruiting. You simply add Akinjo and competent coaching to this year's team and we likely get to the respectability. This team didn't have 0-20 bad talent though it was not good by any means. Shaheen just beat 3 teams that would have been upper level Big East teams with far worse talent than we had.
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Apr 6, 2022 21:34:35 GMT -5
If you think we have talent, it’s because you get attached to the players in the uniform and like them. I get it, it’s pretty normal as a fan. But nobody who has watched the Hoyas believes they are talented. Nobody wants any of these players aside from Aminu on their teams. If everyone on this roster transferred out and wants minutes they’d have to go down to a mid major.
How do you go winless in conference? Abysmal coaching and recruiting. The coaching part can’t be fixed. The recruiting part they can try. It can get us out of the basement. I think any realists know it’s going to take a coaching change to get back to the top of the conference. But any desperate measures to get out of the basement are definitely welcomed.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Apr 6, 2022 22:08:32 GMT -5
If you think we have talent, it’s because you get attached to the players in the uniform and like them. I get it, it’s pretty normal as a fan. But nobody who has watched the Hoyas believes they are talented. Nobody wants any of these players aside from Aminu on their teams. If everyone on this roster transferred out and wants minutes they’d have to go down to a mid major. How do you go winless in conference? Abysmal coaching and recruiting. The coaching part can’t be fixed. The recruiting part they can try. It can get us out of the basement. I think any realists know it’s going to take a coaching change to get back to the top of the conference. But any desperate measures to get out of the basement are definitely welcomed. Donald Carey was very good and could have started on most Big East teams. Tyler Beard, Riley and Mutombo were guys that most other big East teams would have taken out of high school. Luckily in college basketball you only need about 6-7 good players. A lot of talent has come through those doors under Ewing along with some of the worst Hoyas recruits ever. The good ones leave and usually get replaced by worse players. Usually teams that are less talented do it with defense. If you notice the major conference teams that are really bad are all awful on defense. What can we all agree that Ewing's worse coaching attribute is? You can't convince me we don't have good enough talent to play defense to win some games.
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hoyaroc
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Post by hoyaroc on Apr 6, 2022 22:36:59 GMT -5
Upgrading the talent level in the program should be priority #1. Doesn't matter who your coach is if you don't have the horses to compete. Talent wins in college basketball. You could have had the best coach in the world and he probably pulls around 4 conference wins out of last years team tops. I doubt many would find that acceptable. Have to upgrade the talent then you can focus on the other parts. I think you are right that we underachieved by about 5 wins. Teams that underachieve by 5 wins fire their coaches unless it was an injury problem. I think based on paper going into a season we have underachieved by about 5 wins every year. He constantly plays the wrong guys for the wrong amount of time. If you look at the analytics he looks incompetent and the record backs that up. His systems are broken which just compounds the problems. Of course we need to upgrade talent and there are two ways to do that. One is bring in more talent. The other is to get old with lesser talented guy that develop. Ewing has failed at the latter with his own recruits but been decent at getting others. Ewing has also brought in plenty of talented recruits but few have got old here. That is on him. Since the mass exodus it seems like he has no clue or no plan. Good players that shouldn't be leaving keep leaving and being filled with worse players. A few were out of his control but most weren't. I am of the belief that a couple of the players we just lost will be solid players as they get older. Some needed to go. I am worried that a few that stayed will get more playing time than they should or could scare away better replacements. Who knows they could be on the way out as well. I do not agree that he is developing guys any more than physical maturity and experience is improving them. I do agree we need a severe upgrade in talent because our head coach puts us at an extreme disadvantage. You make some valid points. Blair and Pickett are examples of getting old.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Apr 6, 2022 22:48:21 GMT -5
If "Talent wins in college basketball" (it does, you're right), then a coach's #1 job should be getting talent. Beyond his miserable coaching, Ewing has recruited at an abysmal level. Shockingly bad. I follow recruiting pretty closely and more than half of our signees under Ewing are guys I had never heard of. He has recruited good enough if he was a good coach and could keep the guys he brought in. We are usually middle of the Big East pack at worst in recruiting. You simply add Akinjo and competent coaching to this year's team and we likely get to the respectability. This team didn't have 0-20 bad talent though it was not good by any means. Shaheen just beat 3 teams that would have been upper level Big East teams with far worse talent than we had. He really hasn't recruited "good enough". Has he recruited 0-20 bad? No. No one has. That takes the addition of some terrible coaching. Recruiting also includes recruiting your own roster each year, something he has also managed to screw up. Still, it's astonishing we keep offering these second rate recruits when there are 5-10 guys every year in the WCAC who are just as good and are available well into the spring signing period. Those kids who crawl over broken glass for a Georgetown offer.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 6, 2022 23:52:53 GMT -5
Ewing has absolutely no sense of clock management. Use of timeouts and shot clock are horrible.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Apr 7, 2022 0:02:06 GMT -5
It would be a serious upgrade for this last season without doubt but not so much for his previous years. This example is extreme but you really don't think a Pitino lead staff would only improve this team by 4 wins? In conference? Yeah, about that. How did he do coaching lesser talent with the Celtics? He looked well below average. You need dudes. I get what you are saying but comparing nba to college coaching doesn't do it for me. NBA is the best players in the world and you can only coach them up so much. Coaches matter way more in college b/c the players aren't all world class
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 0:14:43 GMT -5
In conference? Yeah, about that. How did he do coaching lesser talent with the Celtics? He looked well below average. You need dudes. I get what you are saying but comparing nba to college coaching doesn't do it for me. NBA is the best players in the world and you can only coach them up so much. Coaches matter way more in college b/c the players aren't all world class How does Popovich do it? He seems to always get more out of less. For most of his career Pitino has fielded teams that where more talented than his opponents. That’s an example of him not having that luxury and the result was him producing a record that was 50 games below .500. Recruiting is coaching so he’s a good one but his X’s and O’s aren’t going to make a bad team good. On a side note a 4-5 game swing over 20 games is a huge improvement. I think folks are missing that fact.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Apr 7, 2022 0:19:13 GMT -5
I get what you are saying but comparing nba to college coaching doesn't do it for me. NBA is the best players in the world and you can only coach them up so much. Coaches matter way more in college b/c the players aren't all world class How does Popovich do it? He seems to always get more out of less. For most of his career Pitino has fielded teams that where more talented than his opponents. That’s an example of him not having that luxury and the result was him producing a record that was 50 games below .500. Recruiting is coaching so he’s a good one but his X’s and O’s aren’t going to make a bad team good. On a side note a 4-5 game swing over 20 games is a huge improvement. I think folks are missing that fact. I guess I'm not even arguing for Pitino, more just the fact that coaching matters so much more in college. For the most part, college basketball is bad and most games can become winnable making tweaks and changes - especially defensively. This makes losing 21 straight - in my opinion - even worse. And you are right, 4 of 5 games is a huge swing. Butler and DePaul found a way to get to 6 wins. Butler - in my opinion - was dreadful. Just take the St. John's games. Imagine going into those games, knowing your team and how St. John's wants to play and just trying to out St. John's without the guys to do so. You have to make those games slower. Instead this staff and head coach are willing to try and run. That's one example but it sticks out to me. Coaching really matters in college.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Apr 7, 2022 5:24:37 GMT -5
He has recruited good enough if he was a good coach and could keep the guys he brought in. We are usually middle of the Big East pack at worst in recruiting. You simply add Akinjo and competent coaching to this year's team and we likely get to the respectability. This team didn't have 0-20 bad talent though it was not good by any means. Shaheen just beat 3 teams that would have been upper level Big East teams with far worse talent than we had. He really hasn't recruited "good enough". Has he recruited 0-20 bad? No. No one has. That takes the addition of some terrible coaching. Recruiting also includes recruiting your own roster each year, something he has also managed to screw up. Still, it's astonishing we keep offering these second rate recruits when there are 5-10 guys every year in the WCAC who are just as good and are available well into the spring signing period. Those kids who crawl over broken glass for a Georgetown offer.Amen. Paging RBHoya
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 6:18:54 GMT -5
How does Popovich do it? He seems to always get more out of less. For most of his career Pitino has fielded teams that where more talented than his opponents. That’s an example of him not having that luxury and the result was him producing a record that was 50 games below .500. Recruiting is coaching so he’s a good one but his X’s and O’s aren’t going to make a bad team good. On a side note a 4-5 game swing over 20 games is a huge improvement. I think folks are missing that fact. I guess I'm not even arguing for Pitino, more just the fact that coaching matters so much more in college. For the most part, college basketball is bad and most games can become winnable making tweaks and changes - especially defensively. This makes losing 21 straight - in my opinion - even worse. And you are right, 4 of 5 games is a huge swing. Butler and DePaul found a way to get to 6 wins. Butler - in my opinion - was dreadful. Just take the St. John's games. Imagine going into those games, knowing your team and how St. John's wants to play and just trying to out St. John's without the guys to do so. You have to make those games slower. Instead this staff and head coach are willing to try and run. That's one example but it sticks out to me. Coaching really matters in college. I mean half court, full court, outdoor court, indoor court St john's is way more talented that we are. And they have a top 3 player in the league on their team. People like to dump on Depaul but they had talent last year. The only player on our team that could start for them was Aminu. Liberty and Jones would have been our best players last year. Their center and PF were better than ours. They probably would have won more than 6 games if Freeman Liberty didn't miss 7 conference games. You're talking about a player that averaged 22 7 and 3 while shooting 40% from 3 in conference play. He hung 34 on Nova and only took 17 shots. Dude is a stud. The game we played them when he didn't play was probably our most winnable game but Depaul at full strength was not a bad team last year and significantly more talented than us imo.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 7, 2022 6:25:25 GMT -5
I get what you are saying but comparing nba to college coaching doesn't do it for me. NBA is the best players in the world and you can only coach them up so much. Coaches matter way more in college b/c the players aren't all world class How does Popovich do it? He seems to always get more out of less. For most of his career Pitino has fielded teams that where more talented than his opponents. That’s an example of him not having that luxury and the result was him producing a record that was 50 games below .500. Recruiting is coaching so he’s a good one but his X’s and O’s aren’t going to make a bad team good. On a side note a 4-5 game swing over 20 games is a huge improvement. I think folks are missing that fact. Idk. He (Pitino) seemed to turn around a mediocre Greek Professional team into a contender for a championship in short order. And there’s no recruiting element there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 7:00:31 GMT -5
How does Popovich do it? He seems to always get more out of less. For most of his career Pitino has fielded teams that where more talented than his opponents. That’s an example of him not having that luxury and the result was him producing a record that was 50 games below .500. Recruiting is coaching so he’s a good one but his X’s and O’s aren’t going to make a bad team good. On a side note a 4-5 game swing over 20 games is a huge improvement. I think folks are missing that fact. Idk. He (Pitino) seemed to turn around a mediocre Greek Professional team into a contender for a championship in short order. And there’s no recruiting element there. I mean... What do you or I know about the Greek basketball league? Don't you think this is a little bit silly? I know very little but according to their wikipedia page that's not true. The team he coached won the Greek Cup 6-7 years before he got there and lost in the quarterfinals of Eurocup every season since 2012-2013 including the one he coached. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panathinaikos_B.C. Anyway I think we've spent enough time derailing the thread. Take care guys...
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Apr 7, 2022 7:04:10 GMT -5
Is there any real news on Pegues coming to the Hoyas in the last few days? The conversation about Ewing and his coaching ability has been beaten to death at this point. I think Pegues would help the program as an assistant and recruiter. I don't know how much he will help but I think he would be an improvement. I hope he comes to Georgetown.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Apr 7, 2022 7:17:30 GMT -5
I guess I'm not even arguing for Pitino, more just the fact that coaching matters so much more in college. For the most part, college basketball is bad and most games can become winnable making tweaks and changes - especially defensively. This makes losing 21 straight - in my opinion - even worse. And you are right, 4 of 5 games is a huge swing. Butler and DePaul found a way to get to 6 wins. Butler - in my opinion - was dreadful. Just take the St. John's games. Imagine going into those games, knowing your team and how St. John's wants to play and just trying to out St. John's without the guys to do so. You have to make those games slower. Instead this staff and head coach are willing to try and run. That's one example but it sticks out to me. Coaching really matters in college. I mean half court, full court, outdoor court, indoor court St john's is way more talented that we are. And they have a top 3 player in the league on their team. People like to dump on Depaul but they had talent last year. The only player on our team that could start for them was Aminu. Liberty and Jones would have been our best players last year. Their center and PF were better than ours. They probably would have won more than 6 games if Freeman Liberty didn't miss 7 conference games. You're talking about a player that averaged 22 7 and 3 while shooting 40% from 3 in conference play. He hung 34 on Nova and only took 17 shots. Dude is a stud. The game we played them when he didn't play was probably our most winnable game but Depaul at full strength was not a bad team last year and significantly more talented than us imo. Why the lecture on DePaul? I mentioned that Butler was dreadful. Anyway, coaching matters. Offenses in college basketball very often stink for large stretches, even on the good teams. An actual defensive strategy would probably be worth looking into after five seasons. I have strong doubt that any assistant coach addition - Pegues or whoever - will do much to change anything. Ewing thinks he just needs better players and there isn't anyone capable of telling him that that's only part of the problem.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 7, 2022 7:24:33 GMT -5
NBA is a very different situation such as having GMs I know I’m crossing years here but for context Iona in pitino’s first year (20/21) wins their conference and goes toe to toe with Alabama until towards the end and sure loses by 13 after 1 point spread at the half. 8 months later he beats them in a rematch. And this year we lost to butler by 14, if we had played Alabama of that season with this team, we would’ve been humiliated on a whole other level without a doubt in my mind. And I don’t know the specifics of that Iona team in like recruiting rankings but I find it hard to believe that they were significantly more talented than this group, if at all more talented. Coaching absolutely matters and a coach especially a new one needs to be able to makes changes and define a style and a good environment for players. If you need a team full of 4 star and 5 star recruits to make the tournament or even NIT then you are in the wrong business. @etomic When he coached with the Knicks he won a division title. What was the difference? He was the same coach in both situations. The Zion’s team lost by 13 to Bama. It also lost to Morgan St, Quinnipiac, and Fairfield. Not winning a lot of games doesn't always mean that a team has underachieved. Just as winning a lot of games doesn't mean that a team has overachieved either. When you tell me another coach could have gotten about 4 more BE wins, I take that to mean you think the staff underachieved to which I agree. The underachievment has been a pattern, more talent will bring more wins but chances are high it won't bring the most wins possible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 7:33:54 GMT -5
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Apr 7, 2022 7:34:48 GMT -5
Idk. He (Pitino) seemed to turn around a mediocre Greek Professional team into a contender for a championship in short order. And there’s no recruiting element there. I mean... What do you or I know about the Greek basketball league? Don't you think this is a little bit silly? I know very little but according to their wikipedia page that's not true. The team he coached won the Greek Cup 6-7 years before he got there and lost in the quarterfinals of Eurocup every season since 2012-2013 including the one he coached. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panathinaikos_B.C. Anyway I think we've spent enough time derailing the thread. Take care guys... The point is I believe he is good coach and his ability to improve a an inherited roster is an indication of that. Agree to disagree on this one, and you’re right it’s off topic at this point.
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