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Post by hoyaatheart55 on Nov 27, 2021 10:40:09 GMT -5
We’re not a blue blood, but it wasn’t that long ago that we appeared in the top ten 7 years in a row. We can be excellent here.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Nov 27, 2021 10:59:47 GMT -5
Part of the problem is that we are constantly in a rebuild because our best players keep transferring or leaving, or they don’t manage to even play a game before leaving. This “rebuild” excuse would have worked in 2017 or 2018. After 5 years, we shouldn’t be constantly rebuilding. And, if this season goes as bad as it seems it might, it wouldn’t shock me at all if the same thing happens after this season. False narrative. We were Big East champions last year. You were saying the same things at this time last year and you were completely wrong on Bile, wrong on Coach and wrong on the team. They were in 8th place in the Big East and were mostly terrible. But they had that nice week so we are stuck with this incompetent coach forever.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Nov 27, 2021 11:00:03 GMT -5
Part of the problem is that we are constantly in a rebuild because our best players keep transferring or leaving, or they don’t manage to even play a game before leaving. This “rebuild” excuse would have worked in 2017 or 2018. After 5 years, we shouldn’t be constantly rebuilding. And, if this season goes as bad as it seems it might, it wouldn’t shock me at all if the same thing happens after this season. False narrative. We were Big East champions last year. You were saying the same things at this time last year and you were completely wrong on Bile, wrong on Coach and wrong on the team. We were Big East “Tournament” Champions. We won 4 games in 4 days and played great. But that same team was 8th in the conference last year, in a relatively down year. Our last game before the run at MSG we were blitzed by 40 points at UConn, and after the 4 game run we are equally destroyed by Colorado in the NCAA game. Bile improved. Pickett improved. The team defense improved (though we also still gave up a ton of 3PA, they just didn’t go in at the same rate). We shot FTs at an elite level. But by any objective measure we were a mid tier team in a conference that had probably the weakest group of top teams since the realignment. We were nowhere near this bad at this point last season; not even close: - Last year this time we were 2-2 against a schedule that had UMBC (170), Navy (150), WVU (20), and Coppin St (265). This year we are 2-3 against Dartmouth (314), American (333), Siena (284), SDSU (54), and SJU (203). - Through five games we’ve let our opponents shoot 32 or more 3s three times. Last year in 26 games that happened only 4 times. - Per Barttorvik, our game score (an overall efficiency measurement) has been under 30 three times in our five games (including all an time low of 2 vs Dartmouth). Last year we only had one game under 32, the awful/ugly home loss to Creighton in February, which ironically was the beginning of the 10 game run everyone likes to reference running through the BET. - We are shooting 65% at the line this year (291st in the country); last year we were 10 points better at 75% (46th). - Through 5 games the average lead/deficit has been -4, while last year through the first 4 games (on a much tougher schedule) it was +4.
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Post by bearsandbulls on Nov 27, 2021 11:20:33 GMT -5
At the game last night. This team makes a nice run, then goes to sleep. I did not watch closely if it was done via substition, falling asleep, or running out of gas. But in almost every game we spits and spurts.
Want to give credit to Timmy Ighoefe. As is so often he got two fouls early and sat. Motumbo played a lot in the first half. They Timmy pretty much played the rest of the game. Got his third foul fairly early in the second half but really settled in. He defense was awesome, his focus as good. I don't know that we get much offense from him. However his stamina in getting major minutes did not look bad. This should bode well for the coming year as I thought we were weaker in the middle.
Biggest problem with this team and with the last few years, is find the hot 3 point shooters and guard them. We had Aminu on Funk most of the game and Funk worked off screens to get open threes over and over.
Another weakness, is when the opposing team comes out of a TO with the ball, they almost always score. It should not be that easy.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 27, 2021 11:33:23 GMT -5
Frustrating performance against a team we should’ve been able to beat. To me this game summarized a difference in philosophies. St Joe’s was really trying to keep Dante out of middle of the court. He makes a decent enough clip but every long 2 without a pass is a win for St Joe’s. He did a better job in the 2nd half of forcing his way into the middle of court and paint but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen less passes from a collective team (not just Dante). Meanwhile our defense doesn’t try to dictate anything to the opponent, outside of occasionally pressing. There’s little resistance at point of attack, overhelping, and then not enough rotations to stop a wide open 3. And we never switch screens so it’s easy to run Funk all around and he’ll find a spot. The play at the end for the lob was set up by all the issues all game. Aminu couldn’t leave Funk, so they used him as a screener. Carey gets picked off and it’s curtains w a lob. The other obvious issue is the freshmen, and Ewing is in a catch 22. He tries to expand the rotation in the 1st half, and it hasn’t worked. Riley and Billingsley don’t add enough in half court. Ryan isn’t strong enough on d. Beard hasn’t been terrible but also isn’t really impacting the game and Dante has been our offense. So now you’re down double digits and you have to tighten the rotation, play the best guys and mount a furious comeback. Except you run out of gas. The Dartmouth game played out the exact same way. So do you play the freshmen even when they’re not helping as you build? Can you convince them to buy in with limited playing time? That comes down to culture, it’s easy to sell that at Nova. If you play your best players and lose anyway, does it matter? It’s basically the same issue from last year except these freshmen are more heralded. Yes it all came together for Ewing in March. If we had lost to Nova w a healthy Gillespie would it really have made sense? Does trying to thread the needle make everyone mad? After last year I feel like the answer has to be just play to win, but if this core doesn’t stay together it feels like the end. Tough questions, I have no view on the answer but it’s what’s going to loom over this season. You have to play the freshmen. And you have to play them in situations in which they can succeed. Get Beard, Riley and Billingsley and Mutombo in there for 5-10 each in the 1H with 3 or 4 starters. Don't put them all in together. Or even two together if you can help it. It takes some planning but it's not rocket science. You don't need to wildly cut the minutes of the older guys. Just a hair. I mean Billingsley and Mutombo came in together and then Beard a minute later. Doesn't set up any to really succeed. And then Riley comes in a minute later and plays with all three! (Beard and Ryan subbed out shortly thereafter so Riley did get some time with starters.) Injuries, fouls, and poor play can dictate. I get that. But that didn't really seem to be the case to that point.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 27, 2021 11:34:44 GMT -5
From the Athletic re Dukes win over the Zags. Losing by 4, with Banchero out: "That’s when Moore raised his voice. The Duke captain took over a team huddle at the under-12 media timeout. Mike Krzyzewski and all of his 1,176 career wins were not needed. Moore railed away, telling his teammates to be stronger with the ball, to stop allowing layups, to dial things up, to stop turning the damn ball over." Thats a Captain Aminu could be on a similar path…
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 27, 2021 11:40:06 GMT -5
Part of the problem is that we are constantly in a rebuild because our best players keep transferring or leaving, or they don’t manage to even play a game before leaving. This “rebuild” excuse would have worked in 2017 or 2018. After 5 years, we shouldn’t be constantly rebuilding. And, if this season goes as bad as it seems it might, it wouldn’t shock me at all if the same thing happens after this season. False narrative. We were Big East champions last year. You were saying the same things at this time last year and you were completely wrong on Bile, wrong on Coach and wrong on the team. First, I was responding to a post about this being a rebuild. What does that have anything to to do with Bile or Ewing generally? Are you denying the reality of the roster turnover? If you think it’s okay to “rebuild” five years into a new coach, then we can respectfully disagree. Second, if you look at Ewing’s record in total, and don’t see a problem, I’m not sure what to tell you. As BaseLayerTee noted, we were Big East Tournament champions, and that was fantastic (and I give kudos to Ewing for that) but we finished 8th in the regular season and under .500 before the tournament. It’s clear that the BET win is enough for you, and as a result, you reject any criticism of Ewing. Right now, this team is playing so badly it might be worse than the 2004 Esherick team, and maybe the worst Georgetown team since John Thompson Jr. retired. We are clearly worse off than we were when Ewing took over, and it’s doubtful we will have any more 5 stars joining the roster next season. More likely there will be more turnover (as there was this off season, so not sure how I was wrong about that?). I’m sorry, but I am not going to ignore Ewing’s 4+ year record and pretend things are rosy because of the BET win. We’ve really lost perspective. There was a time when many wanted to replace the coach because we couldn’t get out of the first weekend of the NCAA tournament despite high seeds. Now, we cannot even sniff the tournament as an at large bid, we’ve been under .500 in the Big East every year except the one where we were 9-9, we have lost in both the NIT and NCAA tournament when we did make it, and now this season we have lost to two really bad teams, and barring substantial improvement any type of post season play is a pipe dream. We weren’t this bad last year, so I don’t think pointing to last season helps you. So yeah, not a false narrative. Just reality.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Nov 27, 2021 11:53:48 GMT -5
Wow, was I wrong. On the SDSU game thread I said the Hoyas were improving. Uh, not so fast Kimo Sabe. I thought I'd never say this but we really miss Jamorko. At least the defensive Jamorko of the BE tourney. Put him on Funk and we win this game. And Jahvon's floaters in the lane are also sorely missed. Finally, Bile's intensity would make a huge difference to this team. And we could always count on Wahab to get points in the paint, something our bigs are clearly not capable of. In short, this is a much more difficult rebuild than I thought and unless Motumbo, Beard, Reilly and Billingsley dramatically improve by January this will be a truly horrendous BE season.
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Post by capcenterhoya on Nov 27, 2021 11:55:35 GMT -5
We can talk about excuses like transfers, talent, recruiting, etc... Yes, these all have played a role in recent struggles. But the problems statistically with this program since Ewing took over have been schematic to a large extent. We have consistently been terrible at running teams off the three point line and defending the three. You cannot be a competitive program in college basketball if you funnel teams into taking (and making) lots of threes. It's hard to persuade me this is simply a perennial personnel issue. Both Dartmouth and St. Joe's exploited this weakness to great success.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Nov 27, 2021 12:02:44 GMT -5
How did we come back in the 2nd half? Maybe that is why. We lost. To St. Joe's. Who's ranked lower than our next opponent Longwood. If that is why, then it's even a bigger failure. Nice try, You asked about why the substitution pattern changed. We saw the difference in performance between the two halves.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Nov 27, 2021 12:10:05 GMT -5
Wow, was I wrong. On the SDSU game thread I said the Hoyas were improving. Uh, not so fast Kimo Sabe. I thought I'd never say this but we really miss Jamorko. At least the defensive Jamorko of the BE tourney. Put him on Funk and we win this game. And Jahvon's floaters in the lane are also sorely missed. Finally, Bile's intensity would make a huge difference to this team. And we could always count on Wahab to get points in the paint, something our bigs are clearly not capable of. In short, this is a much more difficult rebuild than I thought and unless Motumbo, Beard, Reilly and Billingsley dramatically improve by January this will be a truly horrendous BE season. We miss those guys big time. Top 4 scorers and in rebounds Dante has to do it all now. Aminu is realizing he isn't in high school anymore. The remaining freshmen, look like freshmen. Carey is a good role player being asked to play like Otto Porter. Rice just shot another 3. This is who we are as a team.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Nov 27, 2021 12:15:23 GMT -5
Wow, was I wrong. On the SDSU game thread I said the Hoyas were improving. Uh, not so fast Kimo Sabe. I thought I'd never say this but we really miss Jamorko. At least the defensive Jamorko of the BE tourney. Put him on Funk and we win this game. And Jahvon's floaters in the lane are also sorely missed. Finally, Bile's intensity would make a huge difference to this team. And we could always count on Wahab to get points in the paint, something our bigs are clearly not capable of. In short, this is a much more difficult rebuild than I thought and unless Motumbo, Beard, Reilly and Billingsley dramatically improve by January this will be a truly horrendous BE season. We miss those guys big time. Top 4 scorers and in rebounds Dante has to do it all now. Aminu is realizing he isn't in high school anymore. The remaining freshmen, look like freshmen. Carey is a good role player being asked to play like Otto Porter. Rice just shot another 3. This is who we are as a team. Does the lack of talent and adequate roster balance fall at the lap of the head coach? Isn’t that (a key) part of the job? Why do Whalley and Polly return at UConn or Gillespie and Samuels at Nova? While, forget Pickett, but even Blair or Bile do not? Why does Wahab leave a team he’d be the top returning player on? Why does our top transfer get kicked out of school before playing a single game? It all can’t be bad luck for us, and good fortune for everyone else.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Nov 27, 2021 12:20:50 GMT -5
We miss those guys big time. Top 4 scorers and in rebounds Dante has to do it all now. Aminu is realizing he isn't in high school anymore. The remaining freshmen, look like freshmen. Carey is a good role player being asked to play like Otto Porter. Rice just shot another 3. This is who we are as a team. Does the lack of talent and adequate roster balance fall at the lap of the head coach? Isn’t that (a key) part of the job? It is about the G-town program. We have enough people on here that have been wanting Ewing gone since day one. I will say this, it is early in the season. Not gonna write the guys off after just a few games. Most of these guys are either player big time basketball for the first time or are playing in newly defined roles of the team. Not surprised we are struggling right now. Looking at the college basketball landscape, there have been a few surprising upsets and close call wins for teams against so-called lesser opponents.
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Nov 27, 2021 12:21:24 GMT -5
We may well have single digit wins this season. No matter the circumstance, you can't keep a coach with a barely .500 record over 4 years who follows that up with a single digit win season. As for whether we should play the young guys this year to build experience for the future - the odds that anyone on the current team will be a member of the next Georgetown team that competes for an NCAA tournament appearance are exceedingly slim. I'll be surprised if we don't have a new coach next season, starting a new "year one of the rebuild" from a new "rock bottom" position for the program. The guys on the current team who don't transfer out with the coaching change will have likely have graduated by the time we are competitive again.
If we have single digit wins this year and bring back Ewing next season - then I'm pretty much ready to give up on the program ever being relevant again. This would mean that the school leadership is not interested in accepting the reality of what it takes to build a successful program in modern college basketball.
It's painful to lay this out. I'm sure everyone here loves and respects Ewing. But it's not working. The tough thing for Georgetown with both JTIII and Ewing is that firing the head coach in each case was loaded with much more emotional stuff than is involved when most schools have to consider firing an unsuccessful HC. For us - first we were firing the son of the man who made the program nationally relevant, and who was a cultural icon well beyond basketball. Now we would be firing the player who made the program nationally relevant, and was the surrogate son of the program's icon. That's a lot to load on top of the already difficult decision about when to fire a coach.
As many have said, we probably should have made a clean break from the direct Thompson legacy when we let JTIII go. But the institution was not ready to do this yet, maybe because Big John was still alive. If we make the same mistake again, and either keep Ewing beyond this year (if things go as badly as t looks like they are going to go over the next few months), or hire someone else from the direct Thompson extended family - then I'm done holding out hope for anything better than what we have seen since things began to go fully bad (2015-16 season). I'll still follow the team as closely as ever, but absent any realistic hope that the institutional leadership will ever understand what is needed to return the program to national relevance.
The only other sports team I root for passionately is the NY Giants. The parallels between the Giants and Hoyas is pretty remarkable. The Mara family (Giant owners) are just as tied to the old approaches that won Super Bowls in the past as Georgetown leadership is tied to old approaches that got us to Final Fours in the past. This week has been pretty much the worst sports fan week of my life. The Hoyas losing these two games in borderline embarrassing fashion, and the Giants losing in similar fashion to Tampa on Monday and (almost surely) to the hated Eagles tomorrow. I am a beaten man as a sports fan. I don't even get upset when the Hoyas/Giants lose anymore, because I have zero expectation of ever winning any game. But I keep watching, rooting, and hoping. Unfortunately, the "hope" part of that equation has been almost fully snuffed out.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Nov 27, 2021 12:26:54 GMT -5
Does the lack of talent and adequate roster balance fall at the lap of the head coach? Isn’t that (a key) part of the job? It is about the G-town program. We have enough people on here that have been wanting Ewing gone since day one. I will say this, it is early in the season. Not gonna write the guys off after just a few games. Most of these guys are either player big time basketball for the first time or are playing in newly defined roles of the team. Not surprised we are struggling right now. Looking at the college basketball landscape, there have been a few surprising upsets and close call wins for teams against so-called lesser opponents. Most people don’t want Ewing gone for anything other than results. There is no hidden agenda or vendetta. If anything people have given Ewing more rope because of what he means to this program. I don’t understand how anyone could defend the job he has done where in Year 5 we are worse off then when he was hired, and still waiting for our first winning season in BE play, our first 20 win season, our first postseason win, etc… We aren’t a mid-major. Historically we are one of the 20 greatest programs in the history of the sport and pay our coach as such. This is a results oriented business and the results are not good enough by any measure. But again we’re all just fans. It only matters what the school’s leaders think about the record to date. Sadly, I don’t think they are nearly as outraged.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 27, 2021 12:33:50 GMT -5
I actually thought Tim grew up some in the San Diego State game when he bounced back by playing almost an entire second half with no foul trouble. What is frustrating for me (and likely for him) is now he is doing all that dirty work of rebounding, blocking shots, switching, clogging lanes and hustling up and down the court only to never receive a touch of the ball on offense. I know he's no Olajuwan in the paint but he still needs to be rewarded from time to time. Dante is only making it to the hoop when Tim is out there clearing a path and yet Dante never thinks of dropping off a clean pass to the big guy when he has drawn the defense attention during his drives to the basket. I saw Dante and Carey try it a few times Tim can catch cleanly. I don't think they did. One of them at least tried to do so late but it was bad pass and, to make it worse, in traffic. Not a clean look. Tim had to corral it and pass it out to an open teammate because there was nothing else he could do from that spot other than take a jump shot or dribble to the hoop. Before that pass the only real touch he got was in the first half when Carey did a behind-the-back bounce pass to Tim which led to a score.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Nov 27, 2021 12:36:30 GMT -5
It is about the G-town program. We have enough people on here that have been wanting Ewing gone since day one. I will say this, it is early in the season. Not gonna write the guys off after just a few games. Most of these guys are either player big time basketball for the first time or are playing in newly defined roles of the team. Not surprised we are struggling right now. Looking at the college basketball landscape, there have been a few surprising upsets and close call wins for teams against so-called lesser opponents. Most people don’t want Ewing gone for anything other than results. There is no hidden agenda or vendetta. If anything people have given Ewing more rope because of what he means to this program. I don’t understand how anyone could defend the job he has done where in Year 5 we are worse off then when he was hired, and still waiting for our first winning season in BE play, our first 20 win season, our first postseason win, etc… We aren’t a mid-major. Historically we are one of the 20 greatest programs in the history of the sport and pay our coach as such. This is a results oriented business and the results are not good enough by any measure. But again we’re all just fans. It only matters what the school’s leaders think about the record to date. Sadly, I don’t think they are nearly as outraged. That sounds nice. Like I said, it is about Georgetown. The players we have on the roster and coaching staff. Therefore, gonna support the players and staff and spend time and energy pulling for the team. It is early in the season. The world isn't coming to an end. Many games to play and room for improvement. Go Hoyas!
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Nov 27, 2021 12:42:43 GMT -5
Most people don’t want Ewing gone for anything other than results. There is no hidden agenda or vendetta. If anything people have given Ewing more rope because of what he means to this program. I don’t understand how anyone could defend the job he has done where in Year 5 we are worse off then when he was hired, and still waiting for our first winning season in BE play, our first 20 win season, our first postseason win, etc… We aren’t a mid-major. Historically we are one of the 20 greatest programs in the history of the sport and pay our coach as such. This is a results oriented business and the results are not good enough by any measure. But again we’re all just fans. It only matters what the school’s leaders think about the record to date. Sadly, I don’t think they are nearly as outraged. That sounds nice. Like I said, it is about Georgetown. The players we have on the roster and coaching staff. Therefore, gonna support the players and staff and spend time and energy pulling for the team. It is early in the season. The world isn't coming to an end. Many games to play and room for improvement. Go Hoyas! We all are still rooting for the team, coach, and players. It is not something mutually exclusive to being able to objectively measure the job the coach has done. But yes it’s early and there are a lot of games to show improvement. I want what’s best for the program longterm though and if that means a few more losses this year to help make our future brighter than I’m all for that. Moderate improvement is only keeping us in this state for longer. So we have to show great strides, otherwise we are just digging the hole deeper for the program.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Nov 27, 2021 12:44:27 GMT -5
Go Hoyas!
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jester
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Post by jester on Nov 27, 2021 12:59:52 GMT -5
This board has high expectations for a team that plays so many new players/freshmen. Our alpha is a sophomore who really only figured it out end of last season. I for one feel like we need to be realistic in terms of the team we have and judge Ewing against it.
Ewing has had good players (Pickett went to NBA, Wahab was a coveted transfer, Akinjo has led several good teams, Mac is at least putting up numbers in G league) and towards the end of several seasons we did see players like Pickett/Dante/Bile take steps forward.
As a coach, the biggest things for me have been keeping the team / composition chemistry consistent (huge question mark for me so far, and whether you blame Ewing, luck or players probably factors into your grade), the coach's system and players adoption (the offense coordination seemed very low yesterday, a lot of trying to just make shots then get good shots), recruiting (I think he has at least gotten us some good pieces to work with), and defense/heart/effort (I think we have been better on the latter than the former).
Throw in a inconsistent roster with a few overly inconsistent upperclassmen over the years, its been really frustrating to try to judge...between pandemic and transfers and being new to college coaching, Ewing is looking to coach his vision of a team still I imagine as well. I am interested in how he takes the pieces he has this year and what the result will be.
I think we can agree being a .500 team with this team in a decent BE is actually both an accomplishment for this year and a disappointment overall and both can be true.
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