smokeyjack
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Post by smokeyjack on Mar 10, 2019 11:17:19 GMT -5
OK, I know I am absolutely becoming a curmudgeonly old bastard who pines for the glory days of all things (mostly music - where have you gone my friend?), but I swear the officiating has been more miserable this season than I can ever remember. Am I crazy?
And now that we won the game, I can wail about it, but what were those clowns watching yesterday? They literally blew a whistle every time a player on either team moved yesterday. For the first 3/4 of the game, I thought it was one of the most unconscionable home team rape jobs I have ever seen. There were no less than 8 fouls called on GU players that caused my son and I to literally explode in a combination of angst and disbelief.
But down the stretch, Mac got more than his share of phantom calls as well. Can we please go back to letting the players decide the games? Am I an old fart? Wait, don't answer that. Should we petition to get our sport back?
And how about Woj shamelessly screaming for yet another call at the game's end? No respect for that whiny little Duke runt.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 10, 2019 11:27:50 GMT -5
I have mentioned the abysmal state of Big East officiating several times this year and called various things from a whiner to worse. I don't think for a second that it is biased against Georgetown. It is just pathetically bad, horrifically inconsistent, and filled with calls being made by out of position refs who quite often have 2 bodies blocking their view of what might possibly have been a foul but that one of their partners who could actually see the play did not call. Yesterday, the ref who brought the teams together to tell them to cut it out then went on a rest of the game foul calling spree. Problem was, he'd make a call on one end and on the other the same thing would happen and - no call. James got called for grabbing Howard when trying to stay with Howard who was running him through a 2 big man low set of screens. The last time that play ran, the second guy (one of the Hausers) visibly leaned over and down to put a body on James - the classic moving screen call they make on big guys hedging out top all the time and ... nothing.
John Cahill needs to be replaced because this has all happened under his supervision.
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 10, 2019 12:11:15 GMT -5
The reffing is the worst aspect of college basketball. A poor call against a player in the 1st minute of the game can effect the entire outcome of the game.
I thought the reffing was poor both ways yesterday. And it has been poor throughout the season. I would love to know more about how the refs are graded and evaluated after each performance....they should be.
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Mar 10, 2019 12:18:00 GMT -5
Could no agree more. It’s really bad and it’s bad for everyone. This isn’t just his year either. It’s been bad for a while - the anticipation whistles are what I’m anniyed by the most.
The block / charge is a hard call. I actually think they try and get that right, but generally you see a bunch of terrible calls every game on both teams.
I don’t watch enough non-big east ball to know if it’s the same in other leagues? Or if it’s all of college b-ball. I suspect the latter
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 10, 2019 12:22:14 GMT -5
Agree that block/charge is really difficult but that's not the problem. It's the anticipation and out of position calls. I don't regularly watch enough non-BE games to know if it is a general thing, but since most of these guys work more than one conference it likely has to be.
Don't get me wrong, it is a TOUGH game to ref but it is not too much to ask IMO for a little consistency WITHIN games.
FLHoya is the expert on refs overscheduling themselves.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Mar 10, 2019 12:51:22 GMT -5
Agree that block/charge is really difficult but that's not the problem. It's the anticipation and out of position calls. I don't regularly watch enough non-BE games to know if it is a general thing, but since most of these guys work more than one conference it likely has to be. Don't get me wrong, it is a TOUGH game to ref but it is not too much to ask IMO for a little consistency WITHIN games. FLHoya is the expert on refs overscheduling themselves. If they just got rid of the standing charge call it would be better for the game. Officials wouldn't have to worry about it as it is a hard call and it would lead to more offense which is what most fans want. College reffing has always been really bad. With the parity across the country it usually plays a much bigger factor than it should and usually gives a huge advantage to the home team. We don't usually get that advantage because our home atmosphere is usually not great. All that being said the complaining on this board this year about unfair officiating towards us has been as bad as I can remember. The refs have been awful but it has rarely been aggregiously one sided. Yesterday was no different.
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Post by HometownHoya on Mar 10, 2019 13:06:06 GMT -5
Most complaining I've seen have been unbaised against the bad reffing. Obviously egregious calls will be mentioned more when it's your team.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 10, 2019 19:46:08 GMT -5
Yeah, reffing has been awful all season and this game was atrocious. Let them play! Geez.
The Hoyas were completely embarrassed on the boards, and that was compounded by what seemed like multiple really questionable calls. Is there something in the rules that if two players are going for a rebound, the offensive player has the right to the ball and is awarded foul shots if the players come into contact?
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Post by RockawayHoya on Mar 10, 2019 20:02:35 GMT -5
Biggest problem with the college game is you can get a cheap charge the vast majority of the time just by sliding in front of the offensive player and taking contact. Doesn't seem to matter if the offensive player is already in the air or if the defender isn't set, but if the defender falls to the ground it's almost always a charge. Because of this, defenders are going to keep doing it since odds are high they'll get the call.
By forcing defenders to be set prior to the offensive player beginning his move to shoot, it would make it a lot harder to draw charges and I think a lot less defenders would gamble on trying to draw them. Would also make the call a lot less subjective than it presently appears to be.
Also agree that Cahill is a total joke. He was a total hack between the lines and was never deserving of the title he has now.
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Post by hsaxon on Mar 10, 2019 20:54:10 GMT -5
Cahill was a very good ref.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Mar 10, 2019 21:00:16 GMT -5
Cahill was a very good ref. Greg Monroe would disagree.
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Post by hsaxon on Mar 10, 2019 21:02:36 GMT -5
Good point - I agree that was a very bad call.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 10, 2019 21:02:47 GMT -5
Cahill was a very good ref. The Coroner was a very tall Munchkin...
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 16, 2019 8:40:03 GMT -5
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 16, 2019 11:04:11 GMT -5
Sheesh, last night was something else. I often find "the refs lost control of the game" to be a meaningless fan cliche, but sometimes it just fits.
The end result of the 2nd half brawl was probably fine in terms of who received technical fouls/ejections, but the pathway to get there was completely screwed up, from the too-lengthy review time to the miscommunication with Seton Hall's bench regarding Powell's status. What transpired over the final few minutes, particularly the two technical fouls on Seton Hall, was to me an overreaction by the officials after having boxed themselves in by not taking greater control in the first half (*And this ended up being a 2 point game! Where Howard and his injured wrist missed like 3-4 FTs down the stretch!). The incident between Powell and Anim in the first half ("MMA elbow"...thanks Gus) would've been an opportunity to calm things down with players, coaches, and benches alike and assert more pro-active control with the whistle...maybe you don't get to the brawl in the first place. This matchup should've also been flagged ahead of time as possibly contentious: the two teams played an emotional game about a week ago (Seton Hall ended it on an 18-0 run) that clearly lingered, and the combo of Wojo and a heavy Seton Hall crowd is going to create...let's just say an atmosphere of butthurt.
In a broader sense, it hasn't been a good year for officiating in the conference. Certainly James Breeding in particular, who now bookends being lead official for this game with being on the Seton Hall-St. John's crew back in December. (It's not like the losing team in that game is basically the last team on the bubble or anything...). I don't know if I have a clear explanation without digging more into the stats.
One possible explanation: regarding calls for "new blood" in the officiating ranks in conference, that should have been one of the benefits of the Big East entering into an alliance with the ACC (it also includes the A-10 and CAA). It expanded (slightly) the pool of available officials, and theoretically cut down on travel, as schedulers pay more attention to pairing up officials by geography (i.e. you do a back to back at URI and Providence, or UVA/VT and Georgetown). I've listened to a few of the podcasts with Luke Decock of the Raleigh News & Observer and former ref John Clougherty (whose son Tim worked the SHU-MU game last night), and the alliances are a big point of emphasis as a force multiplier--to the point that Clougherty dings the Big Ten for over-using the same refs too much b/c their alliance isn't as good.
I'm not sure anecdotally we really saw as much benefit this year from the alliance though...and this is where I have to dig more into stats. It seemed to me like we were seeing fewer of the ACC, SEC, Big Ten, etc. affiliated refs with the Big East actually do Big East games this year. For example, this year Georgetown in the Big East didn't see Roger Ayers, Jamie Luckie, or Mike Eades (ACC) or Joe Lindsay (SEC), and only saw John Higgins (B12) and Ron Groover (ACC/SEC) once after seeing all of them last year. Whatever you think of the quality of specific guys on that list, they're all veteran officials and I think all but Lindsay have one or more Final Fours. Meanwhile, this season across all games we've seen more of certain BE officials than usual: 8 games for Brian O'Connell and 7 each for Mike Stephens, Tim Clougherty, and Pat Driscoll (7-0 fwiw). We didn't see anyone more than 6 times last season. Whatever the reason, I think the lack of variety and failure to mix in as many quality officials from outside the Big East "core" group was a detriment.
I also fwiw thought there were times when the lower tier Big East officials were in over their heads in games--think Wally Rutecki in our home game vs. St. John's and Nathan Farrell in the SHU game a couple Saturdays ago.
For what it's worth, unless the Big East departs from it's traditional scheduling practices, the officials for tonight's final are going to be Mike Roberts, Pat Driscoll, and John Gaffney. I personally think Roberts has been the best and most consistent BE official for a few years, and he tends to do a great job controlling games. Hopefully we're in good hands.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 17, 2019 12:35:29 GMT -5
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Post by michaelgrahamfan on Mar 17, 2019 13:58:13 GMT -5
A Twitter post on the picture above listed it as the MVP as announced by Nova. LOL
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Apr 1, 2019 18:56:53 GMT -5
And now to check in on which Big East officials were selected to the Final Four, which surely after a tumultuous year with a lot of prominent errors in important games and
[checks list]
OH SWEET JESUS, HOW IN THE HECK?!?!?!
(ETA: For what it's worth, one reason to form an officiating alliance like the Big East/ACC/etc. have is to expand the pool of quality officials available. I noted above that I don't think the alliance did a good enough job this season spreading the good officials out. Nonetheless, even though only 3 of the 10 Final Four refs--Anderson, Breeding, and Stephens--are "core" Big East officials, 4 others are at least on the Big East list, and we had all four of them in at least one Big East game this season.)
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smokeyjack
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Post by smokeyjack on Apr 1, 2019 19:05:02 GMT -5
Clearly Breeding has some compromising pictures of NCAA officials. It's the only plausible explanation.
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BSM
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Post by BSM on Apr 1, 2019 20:49:38 GMT -5
NCAA just has a different idea of competent refereeing. Ted Valentine got 10 Final Fours.
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