s4hoyas
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,475
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Post by s4hoyas on Feb 24, 2021 11:38:56 GMT -5
Q needs to stop bringing the ball down after every catch...other teams see this and its like sharks in bloody water with them going after it...also, use the pump fake when possible, and recognize the double team as soon as it occurs and find the open man and make them pay by getting him the ball...
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Post by RockawayHoya on Feb 24, 2021 11:52:45 GMT -5
I 100% agree on the defense with Q. But to your point, I think we have to ask if there's something just more fundamental about what we're doing with our centers. Basically every center has taken the brunt of our defensive issues. Started w Govan, who was legitimately slow footed. And we heard Yurt7 was dominating practice and would be a massive upgrade defensively, even if that got back to respectability. And then...he wasn't...but man Q is so much quicker than Yurt7 and he'll anchor the defense....until he can't. Now we've stopped hard hedging, and I think that's helped, we don't give up nearly as many 3s on the backside as a result. Seeing UConn do it was a fun reminder of the pros / cons. They picked up a ton of fouls, but they were also able to pair it with aggressive on ball defense that we were never able to do. In their system it made more sense but even Dante split it a few times and their frontline was in foul trouble the whole game. It neutralized Blair but I don't think it works against a Creighton or Nova but would have to go back and watch those matchups. And big picture our defensive efficiency numbers keep creeping up. Even last night, Adjusted Def Eff of 92.8 which now brings us to 62nd in country per Bart Torvik. But I honestly feel like Ewing's scheme expects every center to be as good as he was, he made a point of highlighting Q's 9 blocks vs St Johns saying you need that every game, and it just gets him out of position and chasing. I honestly thought Tim did a much better job of actually committing to drop coverage last night and eliminated the layups and dunks for a bit. Now maybe it's intentional, but Q definitely comes out farther. Maybe it's bc Ewing thinks he can get back quicker so encourages it but he gets stuck in between too often. None of those bigs had or have vertical burst (or lateral burst). We haven't had a guy like that in a long time. (Roy didn't either, but he made up for it with sheer size and timing.) So, they're going to struggle against guys that do. I'm not really sure any sort of scheme is going to do much to help that (aside from trying to keep them closer to the basket, which we do now). You're right that UConn's scheme showed the pros and cons of the hard hedge or blitz. We took advantage at times...and it hurt us at times. We probably didn't get as many cheap fouls as we should have against us, given how the game was being called. Some of that is that Blair isn't really capable of attacking the blitz. What I would hope is that by the end of the year, you've done enough PNR work that you can effectively tailor your PNR D not just game-to-game but individual opposing player. If you were defending us, you would always hard hedge or blitz Blair. You'd try to never ever switch on Dante. And so on. Precisely why film study, scouting, and formulating those inputs into an opponent specific or even player specific game plan are absolutely critical to success. I'm not certain Sanogo, Carlton, and Whaley took a single shot outside of 10 feet last night. Yet there was Q, repeatedly in no-man's land, often times losing sight of his man in the paint as he was focused solely on the ball. Against a team with an opposing big who has the ability to stretch the floor, I get that Q's defensive assignment becomes much harder and he can be exposed at times. Nothing we can do about that. But against a team like UConn with virtually 0 credible shooters in the frontcourt, there was absolutely no reason for him to stray from his man as much as he did. As much as that's a failure on him for just not putting himself in the right position and being defensively aware of ball-me-my man, it's also a failure on the staff for not adequately incorporating film study and scouting into preparing Q for what UConn might throw at him. You might use the argument that we haven't seen UConn in awhile, and I'll buy that. But even against the teams we've seen 2x a year for the last 7-8 years, it just seems like every team we have 2-3 days and not a week to prepare, the odds that we're ill-equipped to understand what the other team will try to do to us are much higher than I'd like it to be. As much as Q needs to improve on a lot of things, our staff top to bottom has to do a much better job in terms of preparation as well. And if that's too hard for this staff to do, then they need to find someone who can add that to the program.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 748
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 24, 2021 11:59:55 GMT -5
None of those bigs had or have vertical burst (or lateral burst). We haven't had a guy like that in a long time. (Roy didn't either, but he made up for it with sheer size and timing.) So, they're going to struggle against guys that do. I'm not really sure any sort of scheme is going to do much to help that (aside from trying to keep them closer to the basket, which we do now). You're right that UConn's scheme showed the pros and cons of the hard hedge or blitz. We took advantage at times...and it hurt us at times. We probably didn't get as many cheap fouls as we should have against us, given how the game was being called. Some of that is that Blair isn't really capable of attacking the blitz. What I would hope is that by the end of the year, you've done enough PNR work that you can effectively tailor your PNR D not just game-to-game but individual opposing player. If you were defending us, you would always hard hedge or blitz Blair. You'd try to never ever switch on Dante. And so on. Don't disagree, but simply going back through the first pages of this thread, there's suggestions that he can be a 4 next to Yurt7 in a twin towers lineup and cover defensively on the perimeter. Not from you, just generally across the board and there are a few posters who point out some limited athleticism but I'd say its way more positive than negative. Classic backup qb stuff was really where I was going.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Feb 24, 2021 12:24:44 GMT -5
None of those bigs had or have vertical burst (or lateral burst). We haven't had a guy like that in a long time. (Roy didn't either, but he made up for it with sheer size and timing.) So, they're going to struggle against guys that do. I'm not really sure any sort of scheme is going to do much to help that (aside from trying to keep them closer to the basket, which we do now). You're right that UConn's scheme showed the pros and cons of the hard hedge or blitz. We took advantage at times...and it hurt us at times. We probably didn't get as many cheap fouls as we should have against us, given how the game was being called. Some of that is that Blair isn't really capable of attacking the blitz. What I would hope is that by the end of the year, you've done enough PNR work that you can effectively tailor your PNR D not just game-to-game but individual opposing player. If you were defending us, you would always hard hedge or blitz Blair. You'd try to never ever switch on Dante. And so on. Don't disagree, but simply going back through the first pages of this thread, there's suggestions that he can be a 4 next to Yurt7 in a twin towers lineup and cover defensively on the perimeter. Not from you, just generally across the board and there are a few posters who point out some limited athleticism but I'd say its way more positive than negative. Classic backup qb stuff was really where I was going. And I'm sure on other threads, you'll find people that suggested we run Q/Tim out there at the 4/5 this season, maybe because Ewing mentioned the possibility off-hand once in an interview months before the season began. And I guarantee it will happen again next year when Ryan gets here. You are who you can guard, and right now it's not consistent enough to the point where you can even begin discussing guarding multiple frontcourt positions.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,532
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Post by prhoya on Feb 24, 2021 12:36:56 GMT -5
Don't disagree, but simply going back through the first pages of this thread, there's suggestions that he can be a 4 next to Yurt7 in a twin towers lineup and cover defensively on the perimeter. Not from you, just generally across the board and there are a few posters who point out some limited athleticism but I'd say its way more positive than negative. Classic backup qb stuff was really where I was going. And I'm sure on other threads, you'll find people that suggested we run Q/Tim out there at the 4/5 this season, maybe because Ewing mentioned the possibility off-hand once in an interview months before the season began. And I guarantee it will happen again next year when Ryan gets here. You are who you can guard, and right now it's not consistent enough to the point where you can even begin discussing guarding multiple frontcourt positions. On defense, I could see a super tall zone with them, but how much would we lose on offense if none of our bigs has a working jumper for the 4. Maybe Ryan, but he scores so easily with his layups vs. his high school competition that he does not use it a lot. I’ve seen one or two in his highlights.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 748
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 24, 2021 12:39:43 GMT -5
Don't disagree, but simply going back through the first pages of this thread, there's suggestions that he can be a 4 next to Yurt7 in a twin towers lineup and cover defensively on the perimeter. Not from you, just generally across the board and there are a few posters who point out some limited athleticism but I'd say its way more positive than negative. Classic backup qb stuff was really where I was going. And I'm sure on other threads, you'll find people that suggested we run Q/Tim out there at the 4/5 this season, maybe because Ewing mentioned the possibility off-hand once in an interview months before the season began. And I guarantee it will happen again next year when Ryan gets here. You are who you can guard, and right now it's not consistent enough to the point where you can even begin discussing guarding multiple frontcourt positions. To take this one step further, do you think Malcolm Wilson is significantly more mobile than Q? I'm personally skeptical, although we've seen so little of him it's tough to really say. But in his limited action he's just as capable of getting blown by in a pnr if he ventures too far. And to bring this home, if a 7 footer is more mobile than Q...then they're probably a little out of our league. Which is why we've seen teams continue to size down, trade mobility for size, and the results tend to be an improved defense from what I can see. We have Patrick Ewing, we're clearly going the other way, will be interesting to monitor.
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,750
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Post by hoyaboya on Feb 24, 2021 12:44:52 GMT -5
None of those bigs had or have vertical burst (or lateral burst). We haven't had a guy like that in a long time. (Roy didn't either, but he made up for it with sheer size and timing.) So, they're going to struggle against guys that do. I'm not really sure any sort of scheme is going to do much to help that (aside from trying to keep them closer to the basket, which we do now). You're right that UConn's scheme showed the pros and cons of the hard hedge or blitz. We took advantage at times...and it hurt us at times. We probably didn't get as many cheap fouls as we should have against us, given how the game was being called. Some of that is that Blair isn't really capable of attacking the blitz. What I would hope is that by the end of the year, you've done enough PNR work that you can effectively tailor your PNR D not just game-to-game but individual opposing player. If you were defending us, you would always hard hedge or blitz Blair. You'd try to never ever switch on Dante. And so on. Precisely why film study, scouting, and formulating those inputs into an opponent specific or even player specific game plan are absolutely critical to success. I'm not certain Sanogo, Carlton, and Whaley took a single shot outside of 10 feet last night. Yet there was Q, repeatedly in no-man's land, often times losing sight of his man in the paint as he was focused solely on the ball. Against a team with an opposing big who has the ability to stretch the floor, I get that Q's defensive assignment becomes much harder and he can be exposed at times. Nothing we can do about that. But against a team like UConn with virtually 0 credible shooters in the frontcourt, there was absolutely no reason for him to stray from his man as much as he did. As much as that's a failure on him for just not putting himself in the right position and being defensively aware of ball-me-my man, it's also a failure on the staff for not adequately incorporating film study and scouting into preparing Q for what UConn might throw at him. You might use the argument that we haven't seen UConn in awhile, and I'll buy that. But even against the teams we've seen 2x a year for the last 7-8 years, it just seems like every team we have 2-3 days and not a week to prepare, the odds that we're ill-equipped to understand what the other team will try to do to us are much higher than I'd like it to be. As much as Q needs to improve on a lot of things, our staff top to bottom has to do a much better job in terms of preparation as well. And if that's too hard for this staff to do, then they need to find someone who can add that to the program. This is an outstanding point. It's been so long since our fan base has seen good gameplanning and in-game coaching, that I think people don't realize what it even looks like.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 748
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 24, 2021 12:57:50 GMT -5
And I'm sure on other threads, you'll find people that suggested we run Q/Tim out there at the 4/5 this season, maybe because Ewing mentioned the possibility off-hand once in an interview months before the season began. And I guarantee it will happen again next year when Ryan gets here. You are who you can guard, and right now it's not consistent enough to the point where you can even begin discussing guarding multiple frontcourt positions. On defense, I could see a super tall zone with them, but how much would we lose on offense if none of our bigs has a working jumper for the 4. Maybe Ryan, but he scores so easily with his layups vs. his high school competition that he does not use it a lot. I’ve seen one or two in his highlights. Respectfully disagree on the defense. In a 2-3 zone, one of them would be on the wing and have huge rotational responsibilities to cover the 3 point line or jump up to top of key if ball is swung quickly. Think about the type of player Cuse puts on the wings In a 3-2 zone, much less commonly played, they'd get dragged into pnr anyway just by screening the top of the key, the help wont come from the other parts of the top line, the big has to come up anyway so you haven't really accomplished what you're trying to avoid. Not to mention we've been incapable of a zone for 4 years. I'm constantly told when a player doesn't play it's because Ewing knows more than us (yes obviously true) and can see them in practice (I always argue you learn more about them in a game setting). I'll borrow that reasoning and use it for the lack of a zone over 4 years.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Feb 24, 2021 14:05:49 GMT -5
And I'm sure on other threads, you'll find people that suggested we run Q/Tim out there at the 4/5 this season, maybe because Ewing mentioned the possibility off-hand once in an interview months before the season began. And I guarantee it will happen again next year when Ryan gets here. You are who you can guard, and right now it's not consistent enough to the point where you can even begin discussing guarding multiple frontcourt positions. To take this one step further, do you think Malcolm Wilson is significantly more mobile than Q? I'm personally skeptical, although we've seen so little of him it's tough to really say. But in his limited action he's just as capable of getting blown by in a pnr if he ventures too far. And to bring this home, if a 7 footer is more mobile than Q...then they're probably a little out of our league. Which is why we've seen teams continue to size down, trade mobility for size, and the results tend to be an improved defense from what I can see. We have Patrick Ewing, we're clearly going the other way, will be interesting to monitor. I'm not sure Wilson is significantly more mobile than Q, but he is probably the best of the three bigs in terms of not overhelping. I think he's aware of his mobility limitations and at least tries to not put himself out of position if he can help it. He's also by far the best of the three in terms of not biting on pump fakes (admittedly, a low bar). Q and Timmy are both ball magnets and block happy; other results on the defensive end be damned. Unfortunately, whatever small benefit Wilson gives you on D, he's by far the weakest offensive player of the three, and that's really saying something when you consider Timmy's offensive game. As far as other teams like UConn sizing down... yes the extra athleticism and bounciness helps, but I don't think they were at a level that made rebounding against that team impossible. In fact, very few are. 99% of the time, it comes down to boxing out, establishing position, and putting in your work to get the board before the ball even hits the rim. For a team coached by an all-time great big, it is criminal that we aren't better at this.
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rhw485
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 748
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 24, 2021 14:16:35 GMT -5
As far as other teams like UConn sizing down... yes the extra athleticism and bounciness helps, but I don't think they were at a level that made rebounding against that team impossible. In fact, very few are. 99% of the time, it comes down to boxing out, establishing position, and putting in your work to get the board before the ball even hits the rim. For a team coached by an all-time great big, it is criminal that we aren't better at this. Sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't have UConn in the sizing down bucket. I was taking more broadly across college hoops. Baylor, Alabama, Oklahoma come to mind. Even Xavier has gone to Freemantle as a center this year. Bishop for Creighton etc. And this goes without saying, if we're going to play big, we HAVE to win the rebounding battle. It hasn't really been a problem before yesterday but something to monitor.
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,750
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Post by hoyaboya on Feb 24, 2021 14:25:12 GMT -5
As far as other teams like UConn sizing down... yes the extra athleticism and bounciness helps, but I don't think they were at a level that made rebounding against that team impossible. In fact, very few are. 99% of the time, it comes down to boxing out, establishing position, and putting in your work to get the board before the ball even hits the rim. For a team coached by an all-time great big, it is criminal that we aren't better at this. Sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't have UConn in the sizing down bucket. I was taking more broadly across college hoops. Baylor, Alabama, Oklahoma come to mind. Even Xavier has gone to Freemantle as a center this year. Bishop for Creighton etc. And this goes without saying, if we're going to play big, we HAVE to win the rebounding battle. It hasn't really been a problem before yesterday but something to monitor. With 4 back to the basket centers on the roster next season, Ewing is zigging while everybody else is zagging. Playing chess while all the other high major coaches are playing checkers...
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Post by RockawayHoya on Feb 24, 2021 14:45:59 GMT -5
As far as other teams like UConn sizing down... yes the extra athleticism and bounciness helps, but I don't think they were at a level that made rebounding against that team impossible. In fact, very few are. 99% of the time, it comes down to boxing out, establishing position, and putting in your work to get the board before the ball even hits the rim. For a team coached by an all-time great big, it is criminal that we aren't better at this. Sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't have UConn in the sizing down bucket. I was taking more broadly across college hoops. Baylor, Alabama, Oklahoma come to mind. Even Xavier has gone to Freemantle as a center this year. Bishop for Creighton etc. And this goes without saying, if we're going to play big, we HAVE to win the rebounding battle. It hasn't really been a problem before yesterday but something to monitor. Funny you mention Freemantle. Perimeter shooting notwithstanding, he's a guy producing at a level in Year 2 that I think we were hoping for out of Q. Q hit a career high last night with 18, which is great until you consider Freemantle's already a 17 and 9 guy nightly. Both were similarly ranked (Freemantle #134, Q #136). He is going to cause a lot of problems when we play Xavier next week. Which of our bigs can guard him on the outside? Right now, none of them. And that's OK if we can dominate the boards like we should. But it's been awhile since I can remember a Hoya team decisively beating Xavier on the boards. Bishop absolutely ruined Q in game 2 when Creighton decided to attack the paint mercilessly. Again, for as big as we have shown we like to go, we are getting absolutely crushed by points in the paint in recent games (Butler the exception). Post defense and limiting second chance opportunities have been our biggest defensive issues since the break. 3 of our worst 4 games giving up offensive rebounds this year have come in the last 5 games. If there's anything I'm having my team work on the next 3 days, it's getting a body on someone and finishing the defensive possession.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 24, 2021 14:58:36 GMT -5
As far as other teams like UConn sizing down... yes the extra athleticism and bounciness helps, but I don't think they were at a level that made rebounding against that team impossible. In fact, very few are. 99% of the time, it comes down to boxing out, establishing position, and putting in your work to get the board before the ball even hits the rim. For a team coached by an all-time great big, it is criminal that we aren't better at this. Sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't have UConn in the sizing down bucket. I was taking more broadly across college hoops. Baylor, Alabama, Oklahoma come to mind. Even Xavier has gone to Freemantle as a center this year. Bishop for Creighton etc. And this goes without saying, if we're going to play big, we HAVE to win the rebounding battle. It hasn't really been a problem before yesterday but something to monitor. Yeah, UCONN is a huge team.
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dchoya72
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,489
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Post by dchoya72 on Feb 25, 2021 7:13:32 GMT -5
To take this one step further, do you think Malcolm Wilson is significantly more mobile than Q? I'm personally skeptical, although we've seen so little of him it's tough to really say. But in his limited action he's just as capable of getting blown by in a pnr if he ventures too far. And to bring this home, if a 7 footer is more mobile than Q...then they're probably a little out of our league. Which is why we've seen teams continue to size down, trade mobility for size, and the results tend to be an improved defense from what I can see. We have Patrick Ewing, we're clearly going the other way, will be interesting to monitor. I'm not sure Wilson is significantly more mobile than Q, but he is probably the best of the three bigs in terms of not overhelping. I think he's aware of his mobility limitations and at least tries to not put himself out of position if he can help it. He's also by far the best of the three in terms of not biting on pump fakes (admittedly, a low bar). Q and Timmy are both ball magnets and block happy; other results on the defensive end be damned. Unfortunately, whatever small benefit Wilson gives you on D, he's by far the weakest offensive player of the three, and that's really saying something when you consider Timmy's offensive game. As far as other teams like UConn sizing down... yes the extra athleticism and bounciness helps, but I don't think they were at a level that made rebounding against that team impossible. In fact, very few are. 99% of the time, it comes down to boxing out, establishing position, and putting in your work to get the board before the ball even hits the rim. For a team coached by an all-time great big, it is criminal that we aren't better at this.
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dchoya72
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,489
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Post by dchoya72 on Feb 25, 2021 7:23:21 GMT -5
Re Malcolm Wilson. I believe he's faster and quicker than our resident centers, but he is underdeveloped physically and in terms of offensive skill set. He doesn't have any moves. It appeared to me in high school he outran opposing players, was always in the middle, got put backs, blocked shots (he, I believe is the best shotblocker on our team), He was never emphasized offensively. He's smart and doesn't make many mental mistakes.. He needs to concentrate on footwork -- dance, jump rope, and learn moves - stay in the weight room. Eat the gumbo and rice. Finally, he should learn Kareem Abdul Jabbar's skyhook!! Watch You Tube, Malc!
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dchoya72
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,489
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Post by dchoya72 on Feb 25, 2021 7:34:11 GMT -5
All of our big men should learn to play tennis. What it teaches you in footwork and balance is outstanding.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 19,180
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Post by SSHoya on Feb 25, 2021 7:40:10 GMT -5
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 25, 2021 13:51:09 GMT -5
Re Malcolm Wilson. I believe he's faster and quicker than our resident centers, but he is underdeveloped physically and in terms of offensive skill set. He doesn't have any moves. It appeared to me in high school he outran opposing players, was always in the middle, got put backs, blocked shots (he, I believe is the best shotblocker on our team), He was never emphasized offensively. He's smart and doesn't make many mental mistakes.. He needs to concentrate on footwork -- dance, jump rope, and learn moves - stay in the weight room. Eat the gumbo and rice. Finally, he should learn Kareem Abdul Jabbar's skyhook!! Watch You Tube, Malc! As long as Wahab stays, he is going to be our best big, barring recruitment of a 5 star big. As far as our other bigs, both Tim and Malcom are way below Wahab's level. I agree Wilson probably moves the best of the three, but Tim and Malcom's skill level are far below Wahab's. Ryan Mutombo - IF he is ready to contribute - could easily take minutes too, so I think there is going to be a lot of competition. As noted in another thread, I am not convinced Ryan will be ready from Day 1, but there is potential there obviously. I wish one of those three - Tim, Malcom, or Ryan - steps up next year and really develops. I know there was a lot of talk about Ighoefe, and he has nice flashes occasionally, but both him and Malcom have a long way to go.
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dchoya72
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,489
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Post by dchoya72 on Feb 25, 2021 17:58:23 GMT -5
Cute..but dancing that gets your feet moving, developing rhythm. I've heard of big men taking ballet, boxing, karate to develop their body moveme t and co-ordination. So if it's ballet, so be it. How about tap dancing? I'm serious!
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dchoya72
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,489
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Post by dchoya72 on Feb 26, 2021 5:36:05 GMT -5
Re Malcolm Wilson. I believe he's faster and quicker than our resident centers, but he is underdeveloped physically and in terms of offensive skill set. He doesn't have any moves. It appeared to me in high school he outran opposing players, was always in the middle, got put backs, blocked shots (he, I believe is the best shotblocker on our team), He was never emphasized offensively. He's smart and doesn't make many mental mistakes.. He needs to concentrate on footwork -- dance, jump rope, and learn moves - stay in the weight room. Eat the gumbo and rice. Finally, he should learn Kareem Abdul Jabbar's skyhook!! Watch You Tube, Malc! As long as Wahab stays, he is going to be our best big, barring recruitment of a 5 star big. As far as our other bigs, both Tim and Malcom are way below Wahab's level. I agree Wilson probably moves the best of the three, but Tim and Malcom's skill level are far below Wahab's. Ryan Mutombo - IF he is ready to contribute - could easily take minutes too, so I think there is going to be a lot of competition. As noted in another thread, I am not convinced Ryan will be ready from Day 1, but there is potential there obviously. I wish one of those three - Tim, Malcom, or Ryan - steps up next year and really develops. I know there was a lot of talk about Ighoefe, and he has nice flashes occasionally, but both him and Malcom have a long way to go. It would be great to see all of the games develop significantly between now and next year. I dont know how that would happen. There use to be camps that centers could participate in but I don't know if they still exist. Patric, Alonzo, and I believe Dikembe use to work out in the summer to improve themselves...don't know if that kind of development can happen under our national pandemic and economic circumstances.
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