EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 1, 2018 21:22:56 GMT -5
They don't offer scholarships per se but they do offer financial aid based on "need", I doubt very much their players are paying or taking out loans to attend Harvard... My main point still stands if you're an HM athlete and a high-level student, Ivy league schools have an advantage because they don't have to worry about scholarship slots... Again, Ledlum will give Amaker 15 players who had MM to HM offers on his roster next season, to me that's an advantage... The Ivy's have used this advantage to how many National Championships, Elite 8, and Sweet 16 runs over the years? They rarely get multiple bids to the Dance much less deep runs... I'm with HOYAPLAYA on this one. If they are able to identify, target and secure high major prospects who have the academic qualifications for the Ivy league without offering a full and complete atathletic scholarship, more power to them. Going forward thi. current Harvard team/roster will make for a very interesting case study... Agree with this 100%
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 1, 2018 21:37:26 GMT -5
They don't offer scholarships per se but they do offer financial aid based on "need", I doubt very much their players are paying or taking out loans to attend Harvard... My main point still stands if you're an HM athlete and a high-level student, Ivy league schools have an advantage because they don't have to worry about scholarship slots... Again, Ledlum will give Amaker 15 players who had MM to HM offers on his roster next season, to me that's an advantage... I've got an unfair advantage on this one. I played football in the Ivy League and most athletes across all sports are taking out loans and paying a portion out of pocket. Trust me that there are a ton of loans being taken to close the gap for those that are in a "need based" situation. Even for highly recruited kids like Ledlum or Bryce Aiken? I get the Harvard degree and all but seems to me if a kid can get a free ride to Gtown or Stanford or ND or Vandy as opposed to having to take out loans to attend Harvard, they'd choose the free ride...
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Nov 1, 2018 21:54:05 GMT -5
I've got an unfair advantage on this one. I played football in the Ivy League and most athletes across all sports are taking out loans and paying a portion out of pocket. Trust me that there are a ton of loans being taken to close the gap for those that are in a "need based" situation. Even for highly recruited kids like Ledlum or Bryce Aiken? I get the Harvard degree and all but seems to me if a kid can get a free ride to Gtown or Stanford or ND or Vandy as opposed to having to take out loans to attend Harvard, they'd choose the free ride... There are some high academic D3 schools that can give much better financial packages then Ivy League programs can based on academics and need based grants. Their package can lead to athletic recruits not paying a cent. That doesn't happen at Ivy's. Everybody pays in the Ivy's...
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 1, 2018 22:53:48 GMT -5
There are some high academic D3 schools that can give much better financial packages then Ivy League programs can based on academics and need based grants. Their package can lead to athletic recruits not paying a cent. That doesn't happen at Ivy's. Everybody pays in the Ivy's... Families with a household income below $65K pay no tuition. Families with incomes between $65K and $150K pay from 0-10% of their annual income. college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/cost-attendance
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Nov 1, 2018 22:57:07 GMT -5
There are some high academic D3 schools that can give much better financial packages then Ivy League programs can based on academics and need based grants. Their package can lead to athletic recruits not paying a cent. That doesn't happen at Ivy's. Everybody pays in the Ivy's... Families with a household income below $65K pay no tuition. Families with incomes between $65K and $150K pay from 0-10% of their annual income. college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/cost-attendance Every athlete pays something...
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Nov 2, 2018 2:22:50 GMT -5
Every athlete pays something... This is true, and as someone who has had friends who worked for ivy league universties, I'll also add a big fat wink to that "this is true".
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Nov 2, 2018 5:15:42 GMT -5
Every athlete pays something... This is absolutely true. I had a good number of teammates that I know came from low income households who had loans. Hell, my personal situation changed during my time where there was no family income my junior and senior year. My package changed but there was still significant loans taken to cover the entire costs (Tuition, Room & Board, Books/facilities fees, etc...,) of attending school.
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Nov 2, 2018 5:24:09 GMT -5
I've got an unfair advantage on this one. I played football in the Ivy League and most athletes across all sports are taking out loans and paying a portion out of pocket. Trust me that there are a ton of loans being taken to close the gap for those that are in a "need based" situation. Even for highly recruited kids like Ledlum or Bryce Aiken? I get the Harvard degree and all but seems to me if a kid can get a free ride to Gtown or Stanford or ND or Vandy as opposed to having to take out loans to attend Harvard, they'd choose the free ride... You would be surprised. The Ivy programs do a great job with their messaging to student athletes and, more importantly, their parents. For our top West Coast recruits that had offers from Stanford, Navy, UCLA, etc.., it was usually 50/50 on whether we could get them to commit. If their parents made the trip, the probability went up significantly.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Nov 2, 2018 9:55:11 GMT -5
This is a tough one to swallow, but I can't fault the kid.
Maybe we lost this recruiting battle in April of 2017.
Best of luck to the kid--he's the kind of kid you want in your program.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 2, 2018 10:07:36 GMT -5
Even for highly recruited kids like Ledlum or Bryce Aiken? I get the Harvard degree and all but seems to me if a kid can get a free ride to Gtown or Stanford or ND or Vandy as opposed to having to take out loans to attend Harvard, they'd choose the free ride... You would be surprised. The Ivy programs do a great job with their messaging to student athletes and, more importantly, their parents. For our top West Coast recruits that had offers from Stanford, Navy, UCLA, etc.., it was usually 50/50 on whether we could get them to commit. If their parents made the trip, the probability went up significantly. Thanks for sharing this information Playa, definitely enlightening.. I'm curious to know what their messaging is to well recruited kids, to me that must be a ridiculously good pitch..
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HOYAPLAYA
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Nov 2, 2018 11:19:50 GMT -5
You would be surprised. The Ivy programs do a great job with their messaging to student athletes and, more importantly, their parents. For our top West Coast recruits that had offers from Stanford, Navy, UCLA, etc.., it was usually 50/50 on whether we could get them to commit. If their parents made the trip, the probability went up significantly. Thanks for sharing this information Playa, definitely enlightening.. I'm curious to know what their messaging is to well recruited kids, to me that must be ridiculously good pitch.. It's just a combination of the history (each school is different) and the emphasis on what that degree means globally (even when comparing to other great schools like Georgetown, Stanford, Duke, etc..,) and how combining that with being a varsity student athlete is like a "golden ticket" where there will never be anyone that questions were you an athlete or a student. The parents definitely matter because once the Ivies started calling, there was never a question in my house where I was going so the full ride opportunities no longer mattered. When Harvard is sitting in your kitchen talking to your mother about how remarkable her 17 year old kid is and that they are Harvard caliber, it's a tough one to overcome. The other three Ivy schools that I was recruited by used a similar pitch but didn't lay it on nearly as much as the "Harvard" folks. I was actually relieved when I got the call from them late in my decision making process that they had reached their goal for RB recruits for my class and wished me well as I'm positive that my parents were going to "strongly suggest" that I go there. I actually ended up going to Brown, playing defense and made it a point to try to hammer their RB's every opportunity I got.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 2, 2018 12:57:19 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing this information Playa, definitely enlightening.. I'm curious to know what their messaging is to well recruited kids, to me that must be ridiculously good pitch.. It's just a combination of the history (each school is different) and the emphasis on what that degree means globally (even when comparing to other great schools like Georgetown, Stanford, Duke, etc..,) and how combining that with being a varsity student athlete is like a "golden ticket" where there will never be anyone that questions were you an athlete or a student. The parents definitely matter because once the Ivies started calling, there was never a question in my house where I was going so the full ride opportunities no longer mattered. When Harvard is sitting in your kitchen talking to your mother about how remarkable her 17 year old kid is and that they are Harvard caliber, it's a tough one to overcome. The other three Ivy schools that I was recruited by used a similar pitch but didn't lay it on nearly as much as the "Harvard" folks. I was actually relieved when I got the call from them late in my decision making process that they had reached their goal for RB recruits for my class and wished me well as I'm positive that my parents were going to "strongly suggest" that I go there. I actually ended up going to Brown, playing defense and made it a point to try to hammer their RB's every opportunity I got. Really insightful post Playa, much appreciated.. I LOL @ your putting the hammer on the Harvard backs...
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Dec 11, 2018 12:34:51 GMT -5
Understand why he chose Harvard but This one still hurts.
I'm sure the Hoyas staff will get a highly talented wing in near future...
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 11, 2018 13:03:36 GMT -5
Understand why he chose Harvard but This one still hurts. Obviously, it's not for the weather or the majesty of home games at Lavietes Pavilion (capacity=1,636). OK, then, a question for the board...why Harvard? Three immediately come to mind: - Getting a great education at Harvard, but so too at Georgetown.
- Tremendous career and networking opportunities outside basketball. At Harvard? Sure. At Georgetown? Absolutely.
- Access to great coaches. Well, at both schools.
This seems like a missed opportunity.
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sweetness
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Post by sweetness on Dec 11, 2018 14:02:53 GMT -5
This one definitely hurts, as he seems like exactly what we need. But let's not forget he also spurned ND & Vandy - if we are just looking at US News top 25 type schools - let alone Florida, Wake, Xavier, St. John's, Seton Hal, etc.
The Ivies seem to be recruiting much better, just another headache for us.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 11, 2018 14:52:46 GMT -5
Getting a great education at Harvard, but so too at Georgetown. Tremendous career and networking opportunities outside basketball. At Harvard? Sure. At Georgetown? Absolutely. Access to great coaches. Well, at both schools. This seems like a missed opportunity. I agree with you generally. I loved Georgetown, I got an excellent education, it was a great place socially, and even if I could go back and get into Harvard, Yale, etc., I would still go to Georgetown. It had a huge impact on my life, and it was a great four years. Definitely the best school experience I ever had. All that said, for a 17 year old kid, I can see the allure of Harvard over Georgetown (or the other high-academic schools he was looking at). Whether warranted or not, Harvard clearly has the most prestigious name in education in the United States. So, I think for some, that would be very compelling. Same with career and networking opportunities. I think the biggest issue right now, is that from Ledlum's perspective, Georgetown didn't offer a compelling basketball reason to choose Georgetown. If this was 2006 or 2007 and coming off NCAA success, it's a lot easier to see a guy like Ledlum coming to Georgetown (because then Georgetown would potentially be offering something Harvard cannot offer). However, right now, that type of different basketball experience is questionable. So, do I think we missed an opportunity? Yes. But I think Ledlum made a rational decision if he values the academic side over basketball. And it seems clear that he does, because if it was all about basketball the schools he was looking at would have been different.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Dec 11, 2018 15:27:49 GMT -5
At the end of the day, a kid makes his final decision based on the head coach and, for whatever reason, unlike Paul Tagliabue, he chose Amaker over Ewing.
Agree with DFW that this is a missed opportunity---a kid we should be getting. Saw he and his family at open practice and around campus on weekend w staff and it wasn't for lack of effort.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 11, 2018 21:41:29 GMT -5
Getting a great education at Harvard, but so too at Georgetown. Tremendous career and networking opportunities outside basketball. At Harvard? Sure. At Georgetown? Absolutely. Access to great coaches. Well, at both schools. This seems like a missed opportunity. I agree with you generally. I loved Georgetown, I got an excellent education, it was a great place socially, and even if I could go back and get into Harvard, Yale, etc., I would still go to Georgetown. It had a huge impact on my life, and it was a great four years. Definitely the best school experience I ever had. All that said, for a 17 year old kid, I can see the allure of Harvard over Georgetown (or the other high-academic schools he was looking at). Whether warranted or not, Harvard clearly has the most prestigious name in education in the United States. So, I think for some, that would be very compelling. Same with career and networking opportunities. I think the biggest issue right now, is that from Ledlum's perspective, Georgetown didn't offer a compelling basketball reason to choose Georgetown. If this was 2006 or 2007 and coming off NCAA success, it's a lot easier to see a guy like Ledlum coming to Georgetown (because then Georgetown would potentially be offering something Harvard cannot offer). However, right now, that type of different basketball experience is questionable. So, do I think we missed an opportunity? Yes. But I think Ledlum made a rational decision if he values the academic side over basketball. And it seems clear that he does, because if it was all about basketball the schools he was looking at would have been different. Agree completely with this. Harvard is still Harvard. When I was applying to law school, I could have stayed at GU. But I was accepted at Harvard (and Stanford - actually everywhere I applied, except UCLA - go figure).I was actually looking forward at the time to returning to California, but once I was accepted at Harvard, my entire perspective changed. Now it's probably not a completely appropriate comparison, but bottom line is that Harvard is still Harvard.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Dec 12, 2018 8:24:03 GMT -5
I agree with you generally. I loved Georgetown, I got an excellent education, it was a great place socially, and even if I could go back and get into Harvard, Yale, etc., I would still go to Georgetown. It had a huge impact on my life, and it was a great four years. Definitely the best school experience I ever had. All that said, for a 17 year old kid, I can see the allure of Harvard over Georgetown (or the other high-academic schools he was looking at). Whether warranted or not, Harvard clearly has the most prestigious name in education in the United States. So, I think for some, that would be very compelling. Same with career and networking opportunities. I think the biggest issue right now, is that from Ledlum's perspective, Georgetown didn't offer a compelling basketball reason to choose Georgetown. If this was 2006 or 2007 and coming off NCAA success, it's a lot easier to see a guy like Ledlum coming to Georgetown (because then Georgetown would potentially be offering something Harvard cannot offer). However, right now, that type of different basketball experience is questionable. So, do I think we missed an opportunity? Yes. But I think Ledlum made a rational decision if he values the academic side over basketball. And it seems clear that he does, because if it was all about basketball the schools he was looking at would have been different. Agree completely with this. Harvard is still Harvard. When I was applying to law school, I could have stayed at GU. But I was accepted at Harvard (and Stanford - actually everywhere I applied, except UCLA - go figure).I was actually looking forward at the time to returning to California, but once I was accepted at Harvard, my entire perspective changed. Now it's probably not a completely appropriate comparison, but bottom line is that Harvard is still Harvard. Ludlum's parents seemed very involved in the recruitment and I would guess they had the same thought of 'Harvard is still Harvard". the player was also a very high academic kid so his interests might extend beyond just his athletic pursuits. If the parents are looking out for the kid's long term opportunities, it is hard to argue with going to Harvard. I think you can get a very similar education and experience at Georgetown, and play at a higher basketball level, but basketball might not have been a major point for the parents. He would have been a great fit for the Hoyas but he decided to pursue a different path and I wish the player well.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Dec 12, 2018 8:51:09 GMT -5
I agree with you generally. I loved Georgetown, I got an excellent education, it was a great place socially, and even if I could go back and get into Harvard, Yale, etc., I would still go to Georgetown. It had a huge impact on my life, and it was a great four years. Definitely the best school experience I ever had. All that said, for a 17 year old kid, I can see the allure of Harvard over Georgetown (or the other high-academic schools he was looking at). Whether warranted or not, Harvard clearly has the most prestigious name in education in the United States. So, I think for some, that would be very compelling. Same with career and networking opportunities. I think the biggest issue right now, is that from Ledlum's perspective, Georgetown didn't offer a compelling basketball reason to choose Georgetown. If this was 2006 or 2007 and coming off NCAA success, it's a lot easier to see a guy like Ledlum coming to Georgetown (because then Georgetown would potentially be offering something Harvard cannot offer). However, right now, that type of different basketball experience is questionable. So, do I think we missed an opportunity? Yes. But I think Ledlum made a rational decision if he values the academic side over basketball. And it seems clear that he does, because if it was all about basketball the schools he was looking at would have been different. Agree completely with this. Harvard is still Harvard. When I was applying to law school, I could have stayed at GU. But I was accepted at Harvard (and Stanford - actually everywhere I applied, except UCLA - go figure).I was actually looking forward at the time to returning to California, but once I was accepted at Harvard, my entire perspective changed. Now it's probably not a completely appropriate comparison, but bottom line is that Harvard is still Harvard. So we should expect Harvard to have the #31 2019 recruiting class and Georgetown to have the #111 class at this point because "Harvard is Harvard" and shrug our shoulders when kids like Ledlum to be picking Harvard over Georgetown? It has nothing to do with Amaker and the Harvard basketball program? If that is the case, why didn't Harvard have a higher ranked recruiting class than Georgetown until 2016, and now 2 of the last 3 years? I know there is a lot of irrational Amaker hate on this board (based on comments during the post-JT3 coaching "search") , but the idea that kids are choosing Harvard solely because of the school's academic reputation and not the basketball program that Amaker has put together AT the school with the stellar academic reputation is preposterous.
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