Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 15:45:53 GMT -5
The problem is teams doubling Govan is actually a good thing in my view. Most coaches love it when other teams double players because it forces your defense to scramble and leads to 3 on 2's or 2 on 1's.. The answer is for Jessie to be better at trusting his teammates and passing out of doubles and for his teammates to knock down shots or be patient enough to allow for him to repost.. It's also something to be cognizant of when talking efficiency rates, not everyone is facing the same challenges. If you notice we NEVER double. That's probably because Pat comes from the NBA where teams do it sparingly... Govan is really bad at handling the double team. He sometimes sees a cutter through the lane for a nice pass, but most of the time he just holds the ball as the two defenders swarm him, and he seems to see less and less of the court with every passing second he holds the ball. maybe some of this is teammates not moving to open spots effectively. But most of it seems to be Govan's lack of feel for how to pass out of the double team. This is nothing new, it happened on the more rare occasions he posted up and got doubled under JTIII. Derrickson has the same basic issue, but he is sometimes able to power through the double for a half decent shot, or at least find a safety valve pass before turning the ball over. But both guys turn the ball over way more than the average post player when doubled in the post. Agree that he needs to make quicker decisions out of the double but he also rarely gets it back when he does pass out...
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 30, 2018 16:40:10 GMT -5
Not to mention that some of our guys, especially the young guys, are not yet adept at moving to the open space when the double team comes. Too many times the only available pass is cross court, which takes too long and is susceptible to being picked off.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 30, 2018 18:54:10 GMT -5
The problem is teams doubling Govan is actually a good thing in my view. Most coaches love it when other teams double players because it forces your defense to scramble and leads to 3 on 2's or 2 on 1's.. The answer is for Jessie to be better at trusting his teammates and passing out of doubles and for his teammates to knock down shots or be patient enough to allow for him to repost.. It's also something to be cognizant of when talking efficiency rates, not everyone is facing the same challenges. If you notice we NEVER double. That's probably because Pat comes from the NBA where teams do it sparingly... I agree with you on that. Unfortunately, we don't really have a team well equipped to take advantage of it because Govan isn't the best at passing out of it, and we don't have shooters who can make the other team pay because of our poor shooting (of course those things go hand in hand - the better Govan is at passing out of the double team the better shots our guys will get). Jesse's main efficiency problem is definitely the double team and post play. It's evident in his percentages on shooting twos. This year he is only shooting 40.2% on twos (and he's been slowly trending downward) whereas last year he was 49.3%. Now, some of that can be chalked up to him being the primary option this year and the double team (with no Peak/Pryor), but he's also not knocking down the shots he does take. I agree with you he's got to be more trusting of passing out to teammates. I would rather one of our guards take a wide open or more open three point shot than a contested two. On defense, even if Ewing was inclined, I just don't think we are good enough to double-team. We frequently leaving opposing players wide open without a double team. If we doubled, it would likely get even worse.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 31, 2018 12:19:28 GMT -5
What, do people think playing Mulmore and Dickerson wins more games *now* than the younger players? What team are you watching?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 31, 2018 12:25:27 GMT -5
What, do people think playing Mulmore and Dickerson wins more games *now* than the younger players? What team are you watching? The Big East performance of those two is basically worse than any other players at least since the start of the JT3 era. If the goal is to win games, Dickerson should probably not play at all, and Mulmore only as needed. And, neither of them will be around next year, so no need to develop them. I realize Ewing is still in the beginning stages, but we need to get to a point where we aren't reliant on JUCO players or graduate transfers. First, in the case of JUCO, most of them are playing JUCO for a reason - of course, if there's a good guy out there go get him, but generally this isn't going to be the answer. Second, and more importantly, graduate transfers are a huge unknown. There aren't many of them, so the guys available tend to be overvalued. There are a handful of really good players, like Rodney Pryor, but those are few and far between, which is why you cannot count on graduate transfers. I don't mind getting graduate transfers in the sense that they're only around for one year, so there's really no downside - unless they are so bad that they drag the team down.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,397
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Post by drquigley on Jan 31, 2018 13:48:38 GMT -5
What, do people think playing Mulmore and Dickerson wins more games *now* than the younger players? What team are you watching? Exactly. Playing Blair and Mosley more not just develops them for next year but actually improves this years on court performance. Mulmore and Dickerson add nothing to our performance this year and by next year will be a distant and, I hope, happily forgotten memory.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 31, 2018 14:05:29 GMT -5
Govan is really bad at handling the double team. He sometimes sees a cutter through the lane for a nice pass, but most of the time he just holds the ball as the two defenders swarm him, and he seems to see less and less of the court with every passing second he holds the ball. maybe some of this is teammates not moving to open spots effectively. But most of it seems to be Govan's lack of feel for how to pass out of the double team. This is nothing new, it happened on the more rare occasions he posted up and got doubled under JTIII. Derrickson has the same basic issue, but he is sometimes able to power through the double for a half decent shot, or at least find a safety valve pass before turning the ball over. But both guys turn the ball over way more than the average post player when doubled in the post. Agree that he needs to make quicker decisions out of the double but he also rarely gets it back when he does pass out... Good point guards automatically know this, but I'm sure if he's told he will heed the advice.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Jan 31, 2018 14:06:45 GMT -5
What, do people think playing Mulmore and Dickerson wins more games *now* than the younger players? What team are you watching? Exactly. Playing Blair and Mosley more not just develops them for next year but actually improves this years on court performance. Mulmore and Dickerson add nothing to our performance this year and by next year will be a distant and, I hope, happily forgotten memory. Believe it or not if you play Blair and Mosely on the wings and Dickerson at the point this works and of course Pickett. Dickerson never has to do too much but run the offense.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 31, 2018 15:07:19 GMT -5
Let's stay with what we have right now. Believe it or not, the lineup is working. We are getting better. Guys will improve from playing in der the spotlight, in front of large crowds. Case in point, Creighton a couple of days ago. The second unit, coming of the bench, including Jagan and Blair are doing a solid job. I have always maintained that you have to have consistency. That is to say, consistency from year to year as far as your core players. And hopefully one or two players coming of the bench will light up and surprise.
I am tired of this rebuilding exercise year in and year out. I like the fact that Ewing seems to stick with his starting five, pretty much, and does not vacillate like other coaches.
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BigmanU
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by BigmanU on Jan 31, 2018 15:10:14 GMT -5
Exactly. Playing Blair and Mosley more not just develops them for next year but actually improves this years on court performance. Mulmore and Dickerson add nothing to our performance this year and by next year will be a distant and, I hope, happily forgotten memory. Believe it or not if you play Blair and Mosely on the wings and Dickerson at the point this works and of course Pickett. Dickerson never has to do too much but run the offense. No. Dickerson is a total liability on defense. Opposing teams consistently shoot over him. This team isn't good enough to "hide" him.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2018 8:03:35 GMT -5
Believe it or not if you play Blair and Mosely on the wings and Dickerson at the point this works and of course Pickett. Dickerson never has to do too much but run the offense. No. Dickerson is a total liability on defense. Opposing teams consistently shoot over him. This team isn't good enough to "hide" him. You have a point, but the Hoyas play "team" defense. I'm not too worried about teams shooting over him because they should be communicating more on the defensive end and if they do this he can get some help.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 1, 2018 11:09:18 GMT -5
Looking back on the 2012-2013 season, we shared the BE regular season title (14-4 in a TOUGH league), finished #8 in the polls, and awarded a 2 seed in the NCAAs. Boy that FGCU loss was extremely painful - my only solace was that I was on spring break in the Caribbean and was able to distract myself easily the ensuing few days. We didn't score a ton of points that season, but we limited opponents to mid-50s, good for 10th in the country in points allowed.
Whittington's mid-season departure was really unfortunate as he was primed to take a big step forward his sophomore year (perhaps more on the defensive end as he was becoming a devastating perimeter defender with his height, length, agility, quickness, speed, and hops). But Whitt's departure allowed Otto to become "the man" and my recollection is that the team actually played better with Trawick as a starter after Whittington left. We steadily rose the rankings in the second half of the season as the team improved and Otto emerged as one of the country's best players. It's hard to say how the team would have fared with Whitt still on the club. Obviously, keeping a good player probably wouldn't have hurt, but I'm not convinced it would have necessarily lead to a better outcome or result against FGCU. The only real evidence we have is that the team improved after Whitt left.
As for the Blair and DSR comparisons, my initial reaction was that there is no comparison. DSR came in as a highly touted, polished, skilled combo guard and was a key contributor as the 6th man on an excellent Hoya team.
However, it caused me to go back and review the freshman statistics for these two players. I also included Jalen Brunson's freshman stats. Jalen has always reminded me of a slightly better version of DSR, and that is borne out in the statistics.
DSR 32/0 G/GS 25.5 min 40.4% FG 33.6% 3P 71.1% FT 3.0 Reb 1.4 Asts 1.2 TO 8.9 Pts Blair 20/2 G/GS 20.9 min 34.6% FG 32.7% 3P 84.8% FT 2.5 Reb 1.7 Asts 1.6 TO 9.4 Pts Brunson 40/39 G/GS 24.0 min 45.2% FG 38.3% 3P 77.4% FT 1.8 Reb 2.5 Asts 1.8 TO 9.6 Pts
Blair is a very different player than DSR. While slightly more athletic, Blair's game so far has been mostly gunning 3s from the deep perimeter while mixing in the occasional drive to the basket where he is actually pretty adept and drawing fouls. DSR had a full package of skills from day 1. He had the outside shooting, but also a terrific handle, driving ability, mid-range game, and finishing at the hoop. He was also playing on a much better team and against a much more difficult strength of schedule. I don't really equate the 2 players much at all.
Interestingly, I would have guessed DSR freshman shooting statistics were a little higher than they actually were. Along those lines, while Blair needs to improve his 2-point FG%, his distance shooting and FT% are encouraging and I think bodes well for his future. I could see him becoming an effective sniper for us on the perimeter in the years to come.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 1, 2018 11:57:08 GMT -5
Looking back on the 2012-2013 season, we shared the BE regular season title (14-4 in a TOUGH league), finished #8 in the polls, and awarded a 2 seed in the NCAAs. Boy that FGCU loss was extremely painful - my only solace was that I was on spring break in the Caribbean and was able to distract myself easily the ensuing few days. We didn't score a ton of points that season, but we limited opponents to mid-50s, good for 10th in the country in points allowed. Whittington's mid-season departure was really unfortunate as he was primed to take a big step forward his sophomore year (perhaps more on the defensive end as he was becoming a devastating perimeter defender with his height, length, agility, quickness, speed, and hops). But Whitt's departure allowed Otto to become "the man" and my recollection is that the team actually played better with Trawick as a starter after Whittington left. We steadily rose the rankings in the second half of the season as the team improved and Otto emerged as one of the country's best players. It's hard to say how the team would have fared with Whitt still on the club. Obviously, keeping a good player probably wouldn't have hurt, but I'm not convinced it would have necessarily lead to a better outcome or result against FGCU. The only real evidence we have is that the team improved after Whitt left. As for the Blair and DSR comparisons, my initial reaction was that there is no comparison. DSR came in as a highly touted, polished, skilled combo guard and was a key contributor as the 6th man on an excellent Hoya team. However, it caused me to go back and review the freshman statistics for these two players. I also included Jalen Brunson's freshman stats. Jalen has always reminded me of a slightly better version of DSR, and that is borne out in the statistics. DSR 32/0 G/GS 25.5 min 40.4% FG 33.6% 3P 71.1% FT 3.0 Reb 1.4 Asts 1.2 TO 8.9 Pts Blair 20/2 G/GS 20.9 min 34.6% FG 32.7% 3P 84.8% FT 2.5 Reb 1.7 Asts 1.6 TO 9.4 Pts Brunson 40/39 G/GS 24.0 min 45.2% FG 38.3% 3P 77.4% FT 1.8 Reb 2.5 Asts 1.8 TO 9.6 Pts Blair is a very different player than DSR. While slightly more athletic, Blair's game so far has been mostly gunning 3s from the deep perimeter while mixing in the occasional drive to the basket where he is actually pretty adept and drawing fouls. DSR had a full package of skills from day 1. He had the outside shooting, but also a terrific handle, driving ability, mid-range game, and finishing at the hoop. He was also playing on a much better team and against a much more difficult strength of schedule. I don't really equate the 2 players much at all. Interestingly, I would have guessed DSR freshman shooting statistics were a little higher than they actually were. Along those lines, while Blair needs to improve his 2-point FG%, his distance shooting and FT% are encouraging and I think bodes well for his future. I could see him becoming an effective sniper for us on the perimeter in the years to come. That team would have been better with Whittington the player, but I don't know about overall. Honestly, I find this board's hardon for Whittington strange, namely that people always refer to his issues as happening to him, rather than him creating the issues himself. While the ACL is a terrible strong of luck, being academically ineligible and then stiffing a hooker for a bill in Puerto Rico or whatever it was is always glossed over as "this thing that happened to him." For a board that roasts players for being out of shape or taking a Wall Street internship, apparently not working hard to academically ineligible is not a failing as long as you are really athletic. As for Blair, I don't think he's that fundamentally different than DSR. DSR was just a much better player across the board. Both have a knack for scoring that starts with their outside shot. They both have good hesitation moves and use their instincts and smarts to free up space when they aren't the quickest or most athletic. Blair isn't going to end up a combo because his handle isn't as good, so yes, DSR was both better at that and at passing, but DSR was really a SG forced to play point as well. He didn't do it poorly; but it wasn't his natural position. I hope Blair can get to DSR levels of efficiency and provide a scoring spark. I think that he actually seems to be better in traffic than DSR was and I suspect he may be a better scorer than DSR close to the basket. DSR really struggled with scoring against any size -- he never got down the difficult layups over height like all small or unathletic guards need to do. I suspect Blair will.
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BigmanU
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by BigmanU on Feb 1, 2018 12:59:03 GMT -5
Looking back on the 2012-2013 season, we shared the BE regular season title (14-4 in a TOUGH league), finished #8 in the polls, and awarded a 2 seed in the NCAAs. Boy that FGCU loss was extremely painful - my only solace was that I was on spring break in the Caribbean and was able to distract myself easily the ensuing few days. We didn't score a ton of points that season, but we limited opponents to mid-50s, good for 10th in the country in points allowed. Whittington's mid-season departure was really unfortunate as he was primed to take a big step forward his sophomore year (perhaps more on the defensive end as he was becoming a devastating perimeter defender with his height, length, agility, quickness, speed, and hops). But Whitt's departure allowed Otto to become "the man" and my recollection is that the team actually played better with Trawick as a starter after Whittington left. We steadily rose the rankings in the second half of the season as the team improved and Otto emerged as one of the country's best players. It's hard to say how the team would have fared with Whitt still on the club. Obviously, keeping a good player probably wouldn't have hurt, but I'm not convinced it would have necessarily lead to a better outcome or result against FGCU. The only real evidence we have is that the team improved after Whitt left. As for the Blair and DSR comparisons, my initial reaction was that there is no comparison. DSR came in as a highly touted, polished, skilled combo guard and was a key contributor as the 6th man on an excellent Hoya team. However, it caused me to go back and review the freshman statistics for these two players. I also included Jalen Brunson's freshman stats. Jalen has always reminded me of a slightly better version of DSR, and that is borne out in the statistics. DSR 32/0 G/GS 25.5 min 40.4% FG 33.6% 3P 71.1% FT 3.0 Reb 1.4 Asts 1.2 TO 8.9 Pts Blair 20/2 G/GS 20.9 min 34.6% FG 32.7% 3P 84.8% FT 2.5 Reb 1.7 Asts 1.6 TO 9.4 Pts Brunson 40/39 G/GS 24.0 min 45.2% FG 38.3% 3P 77.4% FT 1.8 Reb 2.5 Asts 1.8 TO 9.6 Pts Blair is a very different player than DSR. While slightly more athletic, Blair's game so far has been mostly gunning 3s from the deep perimeter while mixing in the occasional drive to the basket where he is actually pretty adept and drawing fouls. DSR had a full package of skills from day 1. He had the outside shooting, but also a terrific handle, driving ability, mid-range game, and finishing at the hoop. He was also playing on a much better team and against a much more difficult strength of schedule. I don't really equate the 2 players much at all. Interestingly, I would have guessed DSR freshman shooting statistics were a little higher than they actually were. Along those lines, while Blair needs to improve his 2-point FG%, his distance shooting and FT% are encouraging and I think bodes well for his future. I could see him becoming an effective sniper for us on the perimeter in the years to come. That team would have been better with Whittington the player, but I don't know about overall. Honestly, I find this board's hardon for Whittington strange, namely that people always refer to his issues as happening to him, rather than him creating the issues himself. While the ACL is a terrible strong of luck, being academically ineligible and then stiffing a hooker for a bill in Puerto Rico or whatever it was is always glossed over as "this thing that happened to him." For a board that roasts players for being out of shape or taking a Wall Street internship, apparently not working hard to academically ineligible is not a failing as long as you are really athletic. As for Blair, I don't think he's that fundamentally different than DSR. DSR was just a much better player across the board. Both have a knack for scoring that starts with their outside shot. They both have good hesitation moves and use their instincts and smarts to free up space when they aren't the quickest or most athletic. Blair isn't going to end up a combo because his handle isn't as good, so yes, DSR was both better at that and at passing, but DSR was really a SG forced to play point as well. He didn't do it poorly; but it wasn't his natural position.
I hope Blair can get to DSR levels of efficiency and provide a scoring spark. I think that he actually seems to be better in traffic than DSR was and I suspect he may be a better scorer than DSR close to the basket. DSR really struggled with scoring against any size -- he never got down the difficult layups over height like all small or unathletic guards need to do. I suspect Blair will.
Sorry for taking this further off the rail. I actually think the team with Whittington would have went further in the NCAA's (Sweet 16), but would not have won the BEast title. When he was gone everyone knew Otto was "the" man. The team knew there roles and it was a perfect storm. After that Pitt game (I unfortunately had to suffer through in the stands) everything just clicked. Agree with the assessment of Blair & DSR, 100% spot on
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2018 13:53:26 GMT -5
Looking back on the 2012-2013 season, we shared the BE regular season title (14-4 in a TOUGH league), finished #8 in the polls, and awarded a 2 seed in the NCAAs. Boy that FGCU loss was extremely painful - my only solace was that I was on spring break in the Caribbean and was able to distract myself easily the ensuing few days. We didn't score a ton of points that season, but we limited opponents to mid-50s, good for 10th in the country in points allowed. Whittington's mid-season departure was really unfortunate as he was primed to take a big step forward his sophomore year (perhaps more on the defensive end as he was becoming a devastating perimeter defender with his height, length, agility, quickness, speed, and hops). But Whitt's departure allowed Otto to become "the man" and my recollection is that the team actually played better with Trawick as a starter after Whittington left. We steadily rose the rankings in the second half of the season as the team improved and Otto emerged as one of the country's best players. It's hard to say how the team would have fared with Whitt still on the club. Obviously, keeping a good player probably wouldn't have hurt, but I'm not convinced it would have necessarily lead to a better outcome or result against FGCU. The only real evidence we have is that the team improved after Whitt left. As for the Blair and DSR comparisons, my initial reaction was that there is no comparison. DSR came in as a highly touted, polished, skilled combo guard and was a key contributor as the 6th man on an excellent Hoya team. However, it caused me to go back and review the freshman statistics for these two players. I also included Jalen Brunson's freshman stats. Jalen has always reminded me of a slightly better version of DSR, and that is borne out in the statistics. DSR 32/0 G/GS 25.5 min 40.4% FG 33.6% 3P 71.1% FT 3.0 Reb 1.4 Asts 1.2 TO 8.9 Pts Blair 20/2 G/GS 20.9 min 34.6% FG 32.7% 3P 84.8% FT 2.5 Reb 1.7 Asts 1.6 TO 9.4 Pts Brunson 40/39 G/GS 24.0 min 45.2% FG 38.3% 3P 77.4% FT 1.8 Reb 2.5 Asts 1.8 TO 9.6 Pts Blair is a very different player than DSR. While slightly more athletic, Blair's game so far has been mostly gunning 3s from the deep perimeter while mixing in the occasional drive to the basket where he is actually pretty adept and drawing fouls. DSR had a full package of skills from day 1. He had the outside shooting, but also a terrific handle, driving ability, mid-range game, and finishing at the hoop. He was also playing on a much better team and against a much more difficult strength of schedule. I don't really equate the 2 players much at all. Interestingly, I would have guessed DSR freshman shooting statistics were a little higher than they actually were. Along those lines, while Blair needs to improve his 2-point FG%, his distance shooting and FT% are encouraging and I think bodes well for his future. I could see him becoming an effective sniper for us on the perimeter in the years to come. Yeah man, I flew to that FGCU game. Had tickets waiting for me when I arrived. That game hurt so bad. I just wish Markel would've made a better decision towards the end to attack the basket. If Gregory hadn't of left the sky's the limit for the Hoyas for sure. Right there's no comparison to DSR/Blair. Brunson is as true a point guard as they come. DSR never had his mind made up as to what he wanted to be. If he would've worried more about running the offense than scoring he'd probably still be playing somewhere.
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Feb 1, 2018 14:44:06 GMT -5
I want a Wright or Brasswell. You could go to war with either.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 1, 2018 17:12:33 GMT -5
That team would have been better with Whittington the player, but I don't know about overall. Honestly, I find this board's hardon for Whittington strange, namely that people always refer to his issues as happening to him, rather than him creating the issues himself. While the ACL is a terrible strong of luck, being academically ineligible and then stiffing a hooker for a bill in Puerto Rico or whatever it was is always glossed over as "this thing that happened to him." For a board that roasts players for being out of shape or taking a Wall Street internship, apparently not working hard to academically ineligible is not a failing as long as you are really athletic. I cannot speak to Whittington personally, but I always thought HoyaTalk always overrated him as a player. Don't perceive this wrongly - he was a good player with a ton of potential, and sophomore Whittington would possibly be the second best player on this year's team, but his skill level never met his potential. I never understood why people ripped Lubick for the Wall Street internship. This is the same Board where people often emphasize that people are student-athletes, "it's more than just basketball," etc., but when a guy actually went out and got himself an internship to advance his life, people ripped it. Not to mention that getting an internship doesn't mean you can't also work on your game in off-hours (it's not like all of our players are at the gym 24/7 during the summer anyway). I actually think what Lubick did was smart. By the time he got the internship, it was clear he didn't have a bright basketball future, so he did something to advance his life outside basketball. Good for him.
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Feb 1, 2018 19:09:09 GMT -5
Lubuck made the right career move, but I was very disappointed in his play and development while here. His dad is a coach, but he had so many holes in his game. Weird looking shot to boot.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 2, 2018 7:35:07 GMT -5
I want a Wright or Brasswell. You could go to war with either. Man, the year Lumpy got injured smh, he would've taken us deep into the tournament. One thing about it when my son played for his dad's 13&under AAU team with his brother I could see then Lumpy would be a warrior because he was only like 8 years old playing on the 13&U team. He did all the drills and even played in games!!! I still have a tape of a couple of those games! WOW. I know Braswell wanted to be a point guard coach for Gtown. This would've been perfect.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 2, 2018 7:36:18 GMT -5
Lubuck made the right career move, but I was very disappointed in his play and development while here. His dad is a coach, but he had so many holes in his game. Weird looking shot to boot. Just think if we had his dad on staff it would've been different for Lubick. I love that young man. I met his family and would see them before games. Very nice people.
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