GU Voice Editorial

[CaliHoya]

georgetownvoice.com/2017/03/16/change-needed-in-basketball-leadership/

Thought this was a very reasonable analysis of the situation. Especially how Georgetown's lack of accountability is breeding toxicity.

Of note, the Voice requested comment and the University declined (unlike last year, when they took the opportunity to back JT3).

[iheartdurenbros]

That is a good editorial. I suppose I like it because it presents the same concerns I did in my letter to the AD.

[TC]

Horrible piece of dreck that doesn't try to even address any of the difficulties with replacing JT3 (Thompson legacy, JT2 Center, salary, financials), and doesn't make any real argument why replacing him is necessary, and treats some guy's Mourning tweet as fact without verifying it.

Also, makes a huge stink about the piped in music and the dodging of one question. I get it that that sort of thing is what Voice Editorials love to climb up on Mount Pious about and could go on all day about the amount of access they get, but holy cow, reading this stuff in context of how the program used to behave is pretty frustrating.

[hoyasaxa2003]

I agree that it is a fairly reasoned article, even if I don't agree with everything. I definitely think that the administration is partly to blame for the mess. The long-standing policy of being opaque and not open is simply not something that is going to engender good-will with alumni and fans. I think part of the reason for the toxic environment is that everything is close to the vest. For example, let's say over the last few years JT3 did more interviews (including let's say, with Casual), sit-downs with students, etc. It would not remove the effect of losing, but I think the good-will earned through those types of initiatives would have led to much less toxic environment.

It's a small point, but I take issue with this: "For many, $125 is too much to pay for student season tickets to watch a struggling team." I know some in college don't have a ton of money, but $125 for 17 home games amounts to $7.35 a game. Given the amount of money students spend on all sorts of things, I don't buy this argument one minute.

I really think it has little to do with expense. I think there are two main factors: (1) the logistical pain of getting to Verizon Center (and yes, I know the Capitol Centre was even harder to go to), and (2) students (and fans) are more likely go see a winning team than a losing one. On the latter point, this is really true of nearly every sport, be it college or professional.

[bamahoya11]

The only curious thing I would note is the University apparently gave a no comment on the situation instead of just referring back to the generic statement of support the AD seemed to make a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago they were pointing media to that statement as I recall.

[miracles87]

Mar 16, 2017 11:32:47 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

I agree that it is a fairly reasoned article, even if I don't agree with everything. I definitely think that the administration is partly to blame for the mess. The long-standing policy of being opaque and not open is simply not something that is going to engender good-will with alumni and fans. I think part of the reason for the toxic environment is that everything is close to the vest. For example, let's say over the last few years JT3 did more interviews (including let's say, with Casual), sit-downs with students, etc. It would not remove the effect of losing, but I think the good-will earned through those types of initiatives would have led to much less toxic environment.

It's a small point, but I take issue with this: "For many, $125 is too much to pay for student season tickets to watch a struggling team." I know some in college don't have a ton of money, but $125 for 17 home games amounts to $7.35 a game. Given the amount of money students spend on all sorts of things, I don't buy this argument one minute.

I really think it has little to do with expense. I think there are two main factors: (1) the logistical pain of getting to Verizon Center (and yes, I know the Capitol Centre was even harder to go to), and (2) students (and fans) are more likely go see a winning team than a losing one. On the latter point, this is really true of nearly every sport, be it college or professional.

Agreed about the student season ticket piece. Even in these last two years, you get a lot of bang for your buck. I understand that current students have had it rough in terms of results, but there was a bunch of entertaining games this year. This makes it sound like the Hoyas were the Bad News Bears or something, which they weren't. Okay, maybe a little..
For me, there is somewhat a disconnect with the rhetoric and the reality of the BBall team. The Hoyas have struggled, and JTIIi has clearly struggled, but there is a ton of, yes, excuses as to why one could, imo, easily conclude that Thompson just needs to be get back on track having kids stay healthy and enrolled. Now, I fully allow that the ship may have sailed, the loss of Waters was a big blow to my argument JTIII should absolutely stay. I still think that way, but my argumant is undoubtedly less convincing. I do not know what is going on, if he is staying or going, maybe it's still up in the air, I do not know. What I do know is that, should he stay, he deserves 100% support, because in many ways, that is what this is all about. I have no idea what Waters is thinking, if some of the smoke around JTIII caused him to reconsider comjng here, that would be a shame. Concern for the program is understandable, chanting for JTIII to be fired is simply uncalled for, and neither he or the fellas deserve that kind of treatment. To put a cherry on top of my "get off my lawn" sensibilities, this "narrative" of JTIII being "toxic" comes directly from young follks feeling that, because they have such ability lo communicate their viewpoints to the world at large via social media and what have you, that they not only must be heard, but their views must be acted upon, or else. Okay, you've been heard, oy, you've been heard. Now support the team.

[FLHoya]

Mar 16, 2017 13:14:39 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

To put a cherry on top of my "get off my lawn" sensibilities, this "narrative" of JTIII being "toxic" comes directly from young follks feeling that, because they have such ability lo communicate their viewpoints to the world at large via social media and what have you, that they not only must be heard, but their views must be acted upon, or else. Okay, you've been heard, oy, you've been heard. Now support the team.

If you think it's only young folks, you are sorely mistaken.

[miracles87]

Mar 16, 2017 14:36:41 GMT -5 FLHoya said:

Mar 16, 2017 13:14:39 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

To put a cherry on top of my "get off my lawn" sensibilities, this "narrative" of JTIII being "toxic" comes directly from young follks feeling that, because they have such ability lo communicate their viewpoints to the world at large via social media and what have you, that they not only must be heard, but their views must be acted upon, or else. Okay, you've been heard, oy, you've been heard. Now support the team.

If you think it's only young folks, you are sorely mistaken.

Well, I do understand that dissatisfaction with the program is widespread, I know folks who gratuated in 90-91, and there are some unhappy campers to be sure. I am of the opinion that the masses, though they may be many and united in their feelings about the program, are not necessarily correct in their conclusions. I have nothing but respect for your views and knowledge regarding GTown hoops, as I imagine everyone who has come to Hoyatalk over the years does. And, in a ham handed attempt to curry favor with you, will say that I waited on the great Nat Burton, with his bud Moten no less, a couple times at the late great Hibiscus Cafe on K street. Anyway, I truly do feel if we stick with JTIII, he'll get it turned around quick, but I certainly understand that not everyone agrees with me, and I do not care as much about how the school handles outreach to the fan base as much as some, though keeping JTIIi will require a detailed statement of support to get some fans back on board, if that's what they intend to do

[johnnysnowplow]

Mar 16, 2017 15:04:00 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

Mar 16, 2017 14:36:41 GMT -5 FLHoya said:

If you think it's only young folks, you are sorely mistaken.

Well, I do understand that dissatisfaction with the program is widespread, I know folks who gratuated in 90-91, and there are some unhappy campers to be sure. I am of the opinion that the masses, though they may be many and united in their feelings about the program, are not necessarily correct in their conclusions. I have nothing but respect for your views and knowledge regarding GTown hoops, as I imagine everyone who has come to Hoyatalk over the years does. And, in a ham handed attempt to curry favor with you, will say that I waited on the great Nat Burton, with his bud Moten no less, a couple times at the late great Hibiscus Cafe on K street. Anyway, I truly do feel if we stick with JTIII, he'll get it turned around quick, but I certainly understand that not everyone agrees with me, and I do not care as much about how the school handles outreach to the fan base as much as some, though keeping JTIIi will require a detailed statement of support to get some fans back on board, if that's what they intend to do

I'm curious what makes you think he'll get it turned around "quick." Nothing about the current situation screams "quick fix" to me. Whether it's JTIII or some new blood, fixing this situations seems like a multi-year endeavor.

[miracles87]

Mar 16, 2017 15:32:52 GMT -5 johnnysnowplow said:

Mar 16, 2017 15:04:00 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

Well, I do understand that dissatisfaction with the program is widespread, I know folks who gratuated in 90-91, and there are some unhappy campers to be sure. I am of the opinion that the masses, though they may be many and united in their feelings about the program, are not necessarily correct in their conclusions. I have nothing but respect for your views and knowledge regarding GTown hoops, as I imagine everyone who has come to Hoyatalk over the years does. And, in a ham handed attempt to curry favor with you, will say that I waited on the great Nat Burton, with his bud Moten no less, a couple times at the late great Hibiscus Cafe on K street. Anyway, I truly do feel if we stick with JTIII, he'll get it turned around quick, but I certainly understand that not everyone agrees with me, and I do not care as much about how the school handles outreach to the fan base as much as some, though keeping JTIIi will require a detailed statement of support to get some fans back on board, if that's what they intend to do

I'm curious what makes you think he'll get it turned around "quick." Nothing about the current situation screams "quick fix" to me. Whether it's JTIII or some new blood, fixing this situations seems like a multi-year endeavor.

I think the man can coach, first off. Secondly, if, and with everything going on, it's a big if which would apply to any GTown coach the next year or two, if the remaining core stays, and guys progress individually, the cupboard is not bare. Govan needs to play to his potential against the stiffer competition, he regressed starting with Creighton, really struggled, when it looked like he may have turned the corner. Same with Agau, who can clearly be a solid Big East forward. It would be amazing how much better he'd have been without the unforced errors. Mosely has a lot of promise, and Mulmore, though i haven't a ton of hope for his shotput style jumper, had some nice moments using his speed to make things happen. Kaleb is a heckuva an athlete, and definitely showed some growth this year. Derrickson is obviously a huge piece, I believe he just needs to get his swag back offensively, it is clear he has the tools, and the body, to be an offensive force. And then there's LJ, the big question mark, certainly he has the potential to be a notable player in the Big East as well as nationally. That's why this Waters thing was such a blow. Seems to be the kind of player who can make others so much better, and help close games, what can I say. I still think a player or two or three, Walker and who knows, and these guys can flip some of those toght Ls into Ws. It's not that big of a deal, we were only truely outclassed by Wisconsin and Nova, most of the rest of the games we were pretty much in it. I have faith in the fellas.

[johnnysnowplow]

Mar 16, 2017 15:57:26 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

Mar 16, 2017 15:32:52 GMT -5 johnnysnowplow said:

I'm curious what makes you think he'll get it turned around "quick." Nothing about the current situation screams "quick fix" to me. Whether it's JTIII or some new blood, fixing this situations seems like a multi-year endeavor.

I think the man can coach, first off. Secondly, if, and with everything going on, it's a big if which would apply to any GTown coach the next year or two, if the remaining core stays, and guys progress individually, the cupboard is not bare. Govan needs to play to his potential against the stiffer competition, he regressed starting with Creighton, really struggled, when it looked like he may have turned the corner. Same with Agau, who can clearly be a solid Big East forward. It would be amazing how much better he'd have been without the unforced errors. Mosely has a lot of promise, and Mulmore, though i haven't a ton of hope for his shotput style jumper, had some nice moments using his speed to make things happen. Kaleb is a heckuva an athlete, and definitely showed some growth this year. Derrickson is obviously a huge piece, I believe he just needs to get his swag back offensively, it is clear he has the tools, and the body, to be an offensive force. And then there's LJ, the big question mark, certainly he has the potential to be a notable player in the Big East as well as nationally. That's why this Waters thing was such a blow. Seems to be the kind of player who can make others so much better, and help close games, what can I say. I still think a player or two or three, Walker and who knows, and these guys can flip some of those toght Ls into Ws. It's not that big of a deal, we were only truely outclassed by Wisconsin and Nova, most of the rest of the games we were pretty much in it. I have faith in the fellas.

You paint a pretty rosy picture. I'd love to be looking through those same glasses but I just don't see it. Aside from LJ, every player remaining has serious limitations that likely won't improve much at this point, though I do like Moseley's potential. We lose our leading scorer and 2 seniors who, while they only played sparingly, were still part of the rotation nontheless. We're losing 3 guys and so far, we have 1 underwhelming prospect coming in. One of the guys on the bench that might have been able to step in and play in rotation is rumored to be transferring. So we're likely looking at more band-aids in the form of transfers/JUCOs/decommits. None of that, to me, adds up to quick fix.

[miracles87]

Oh yea, I am definitely guilty of wearing the rose colored glasses, that's a lot of ifs, and I know absolutely nothing about what may or may not be happening behind the scenes. Still, I think it's eminently possible the guys will ilearn from their experiences, avoid the mistakes that plagued them, and do what they do well with increased confidence.

[vv83]

Mar 16, 2017 15:57:26 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

Mar 16, 2017 15:32:52 GMT -5 johnnysnowplow said:

I'm curious what makes you think he'll get it turned around "quick." Nothing about the current situation screams "quick fix" to me. Whether it's JTIII or some new blood, fixing this situations seems like a multi-year endeavor.

I think the man can coach, first off. Secondly, if, and with everything going on, it's a big if which would apply to any GTown coach the next year or two, if the remaining core stays, and guys progress individually, the cupboard is not bare. Govan needs to play to his potential against the stiffer competition, he regressed starting with Creighton, really struggled, when it looked like he may have turned the corner. Same with Agau, who can clearly be a solid Big East forward. It would be amazing how much better he'd have been without the unforced errors. Mosely has a lot of promise, and Mulmore, though i haven't a ton of hope for his shotput style jumper, had some nice moments using his speed to make things happen. Kaleb is a heckuva an athlete, and definitely showed some growth this year. Derrickson is obviously a huge piece, I believe he just needs to get his swag back offensively, it is clear he has the tools, and the body, to be an offensive force. And then there's LJ, the big question mark, certainly he has the potential to be a notable player in the Big East as well as nationally. That's why this Waters thing was such a blow. Seems to be the kind of player who can make others so much better, and help close games, what can I say. I still think a player or two or three, Walker and who knows, and these guys can flip some of those toght Ls into Ws. It's not that big of a deal, we were only truely outclassed by Wisconsin and Nova, most of the rest of the games we were pretty much in it. I have faith in the fellas.

In addition to Nova and Wisconsin - Oklahoma State gave us the worst non-senior day beating of the season. We could barely get a shot off for long stretches of that game - and they are a pretty lousy defensive team, they generally win with offense. But your point is well taken, there was plenty of opportunity to have a decent record this year, there were plenty of close games we could have pulled out with just a little bit better performance.

I think that is where not having a good point guard shows up the most. Late in close games, guys like Trimble and Sumner whipped us, while we had nobody who could take charge offensively in those situations. So I am in complete agreement with your point that losing Waters is really crushing, he is exactly the kind of player this program needs.

[augustusfinknottle]

If the current staff has/d the ability to coach them up out of these deficiencies why has it not been addressed by now and why should the future be different?

[Hoyas4Ever]

Mar 16, 2017 15:57:26 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

Mar 16, 2017 15:32:52 GMT -5 johnnysnowplow said:

I'm curious what makes you think he'll get it turned around "quick." Nothing about the current situation screams "quick fix" to me. Whether it's JTIII or some new blood, fixing this situations seems like a multi-year endeavor.

I think the man can coach, first off. Secondly, if, and with everything going on, it's a big if which would apply to any GTown coach the next year or two, if the remaining core stays, and guys progress individually, the cupboard is not bare. Govan needs to play to his potential against the stiffer competition, he regressed starting with Creighton, really struggled, when it looked like he may have turned the corner. Same with Agau, who can clearly be a solid Big East forward. It would be amazing how much better he'd have been without the unforced errors. Mosely has a lot of promise, and Mulmore, though i haven't a ton of hope for his shotput style jumper, had some nice moments using his speed to make things happen. Kaleb is a heckuva an athlete, and definitely showed some growth this year. Derrickson is obviously a huge piece, I believe he just needs to get his swag back offensively, it is clear he has the tools, and the body, to be an offensive force. And then there's LJ, the big question mark, certainly he has the potential to be a notable player in the Big East as well as nationally. That's why this Waters thing was such a blow. Seems to be the kind of player who can make others so much better, and help close games, what can I say. I still think a player or two or three, Walker and who knows, and these guys can flip some of those toght Ls into Ws. It's not that big of a deal, we were only truely outclassed by Wisconsin and Nova, most of the rest of the games we were pretty much in it. I have faith in the fellas.

I agree that there is talent on the roster if everyone who has eligibility remains. I just don't think the roster fits or plays well within JT3's Princeton offense. At least not the offense we saw this year. With the recruitments of Mosely, Mulmore, and the signing of Walker, I absolutely thought there would be a lot less Princeton and more of a modern offense like a pick and roll/pick & pop, drive and kick kind of looks with some Princeton principles sprinkled in. JT3 showed some different looks early and in what looks like a panic, JT3 abandoned the changes and went ostrich head in the sand deep in his Princeton only offense which IMO took away the natural abilities of a Mulmore and a Mosely and shined a the lights on all the players (except Peak) limitations. 

While I believe it's time for a change, I do agree with you that if JT3 is retained we need to fully support that decision and get behind the team. 

[miracles87]

Mar 16, 2017 16:41:43 GMT -5 augustusfinknottle said:

If the current staff has/d the ability to coach them up out of these deficiencies why has it not been addressed by now and why should the future be different?

We're talking about freshmen, sophomores, and two guys who just played their first years here. Govan and Johnson improved from their freshmen year, Derrickson wobbled, but also showed flashes, and we were working toward getting him going.

This is the kind of question I wonder about. I understand frustration and the notion that maybe it's time to move on, but JTIII can coach. He is not an idiot. I have seen many JTIII coached teams play absolutely deadly and clinical team ball that completely thrilled me as s fan. We are in a slump, but he can get us out.

[757hoyafan]

Unless his contract is tied into our attendance, I do not get why they are mentioning his salary. I don't give a damn if he's making 5 million per & we stink - the powers that be & his Agent agreed to the terms. Move on. Also, who cares how other schools decide to operate. I don't..

[smokeyjack]

Mar 16, 2017 16:55:40 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

Mar 16, 2017 16:41:43 GMT -5 augustusfinknottle said:

If the current staff has/d the ability to coach them up out of these deficiencies why has it not been addressed by now and why should the future be different?

We're talking about freshmen, sophomores, and two guys who just played their first years here. Govan and Johnson improved from their freshmen year, Derrickson wobbled, but also showed flashes, and we were working toward getting him going.

This is the kind of question I wonder about. I understand frustration and the notion that maybe it's time to move on, but JTIII can coach. He is not an idiot. I have seen many JTIII coached teams play absolutely deadly and clinical team ball that completely thrilled me as s fan. We are in a slump, but he can get us out.

Do you have one shred of evidence for this to point to over the last several years? We have abominably underperformed in three of the last four seasons, finished 3-17 in Feb and March this season and last and have generally gotten worse and not better in every meaningful statistical category other the FT attempts over the last several seasons. Where is your evidence that this regime has a clue what it's doing?

[miracles87]

Mar 17, 2017 17:58:58 GMT -5 smokeyjack said:

Mar 16, 2017 16:55:40 GMT -5 miracles87 said:

We're talking about freshmen, sophomores, and two guys who just played their first years here. Govan and Johnson improved from their freshmen year, Derrickson wobbled, but also showed flashes, and we were working toward getting him going.

This is the kind of question I wonder about. I understand frustration and the notion that maybe it's time to move on, but JTIII can coach. He is not an idiot. I have seen many JTIII coached teams play absolutely deadly and clinical team ball that completely thrilled me as s fan. We are in a slump, but he can get us out.

Do you have one shred of evidence for this to point to over the last several years? We have abominably underperformed in three of the last four seasons, finished 3-17 in Feb and March this season and last and have generally gotten worse and not better in every meaningful statistical category other the FT attempts over the last several seasons. Where is your evidence that this regime has a clue what it's doing?

Whoa big fella, take it easy, breathe into a paper bag or something.

Smokey, I know you're upset about the Hoyas, so am I. I think it is eminently fair to say that, for the last two years, and I believe the first time (s) since becoming Head Coach at GTown, JTIII has coached teams whose total was less than the sum of it's parts. As far as "evidence", again, I have seen many different Hoya teams play scintillating team basketball, which evidenced superior coaching. So, excuuuuuse me, but I chalk our recent problems into a bad stretch of injury, illness and transfers, not JTIII suddenly not knowing what he is doing. Is that okay, Judge Smokey? Are you going to hold me in contempt of Hoyatalk?