Tremont Waters - LSU

[hoya2x2010]

Apr 20, 2017 11:29:29 GMT -5 hoyaboya said:

Apr 20, 2017 11:21:51 GMT -5 hoya2x2010 said:

Ranked a bit better than DSR if my memory serves. Also polar opposite players in terms of almost everything except height. But agreed, if he's positioning for a 1-and-done, the odds are against him. 

Not looking to be the case. DSR was RSCI #37.

www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2012.html

For Waters, the final rankings of Scout, Rivals and ESPN have all been made and he's 40, 37 and 32 respectively. Average ranking of 36.3.

I will eat my hat in that case! I seemed to remember DSR in the 50s for ESPN, which made me think his RSCI was higher, but I am glad to be corrected when wrong. 

[hoyasaxa2003]

We would be (and should be) thrilled if anybody of DSR quality commits to play on next year's team. Yes, I realize that DSR was not a point guard, and we do need one, but basically we have no guards at the moment who have demonstrated that they are quality players. So yes, we need a point guard, but a shooting guard who can, you know...shoot, would be helpful too.

[jwp91]

Apr 20, 2017 14:58:51 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

.... basically we have no guards at the moment who have demonstrated that they are quality players.

Just curious....how would you describe your significant other?

Dumpy with a horrible taste in the opposite sex?

Maybe they need to be coached up a bit and put into situations where they can be more successful. I actually can think of 3 quality guards off the top of my head.

[sleepy]

who are the 3 quality guards you speak of?

[hoyasaxa2003]

Apr 20, 2017 15:53:24 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

Apr 20, 2017 14:58:51 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

.... basically we have no guards at the moment who have demonstrated that they are quality players.

Just curious....how would you describe your significant other?

Dumpy with a horrible taste in the opposite sex?

Maybe they need to be coached up a bit and put into situations where they can be more successful. I actually can think of 3 quality guards off the top of my head.

I have no idea what your first two sentences are getting at, so to move on to the substance:

I assume you mean Mosely, Campbell, and Mulmore. Some stats:

Mulmore (rising senior) - O rating: 95.7, assist rate: 16.0; turnover rate: 26.1, 2PT%: 36.4%, 3PT%: 34.5

Campbell (rising senior) - O rating 93.8, assist rate: 17.4, turnover rate: 23.6, 2PT%: 42.3%, 3PT%: 34.3

Mosely (rising sophomore) - O rating: 98.5, assist rate: 22.4, turnover rate: 25.6, 2PT%: 45.0%, 3PT%: 24.3

Out of the gate, one thing should be glaring - none of these guys are efficient, and essentially none of them can shoot, nor are they particularly effective at assists (though Mosely wasn't bad).

Now, I am willing to give Mosely the benefit of the doubt because he was a freshman, and can certainly improve, but Mulmore and Campbell will be seniors, with experience under their belt. I would love it if both of them got a lot better, but I won't be betting on it.

All three might be great guys, and Mosely is young, but they aren't quality guards. If Ewing can turn them into efficient guards who can shoot, I'd be thrilled, but I just don't think they have it. After a strong freshman season, Campbell has seemed like a fish out of water, and Mulmore just doesn't seem to have what it takes to succeed at the higher level.

So yeah, I am calling it as I see it. I love our team, but I am not going to pretend like we have three quality guards, considering that it was one of our main shortcomings this past year. People like Starks, DSR, and Jason Clark were quality guards. These three don't measure up.

[jwp91]

Apr 20, 2017 16:19:01 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Apr 20, 2017 15:53:24 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

Just curious....how would you describe your significant other?

Dumpy with a horrible taste in the opposite sex?

Maybe they need to be coached up a bit and put into situations where they can be more successful. I actually can think of 3 quality guards off the top of my head.

I have no idea what your first two sentences are getting at, so to move on to the substance:

I assume you mean Mosely, Campbell, and Mulmore. Some stats:

Mulmore (rising senior) - O rating: 95.7, assist rate: 16.0; turnover rate: 26.1, 2PT%: 36.4%, 3PT%: 34.5

Campbell (rising senior) - O rating 93.8, assist rate: 17.4, turnover rate: 23.6, 2PT%: 42.3%, 3PT%: 34.3

Mosely (rising sophomore) - O rating: 98.5, assist rate: 22.4, turnover rate: 25.6, 2PT%: 45.0%, 3PT%: 24.3

Out of the gate, one thing should be glaring - none of these guys are efficient, and essentially none of them can shoot, nor are they particularly effective at assists (though Mosely wasn't bad).

Now, I am willing to give Mosely the benefit of the doubt because he was a freshman, and can certainly improve, but Mulmore and Campbell will be seniors, with experience under their belt. I would love it if both of them got a lot better, but I won't be betting on it.

All three might be great guys, and Mosely is young, but they aren't quality guards. If Ewing can turn them into efficient guards who can shoot, I'd be thrilled, but I just don't think they have it. After a strong freshman season, Campbell has seemed like a fish out of water, and Mulmore just doesn't seem to have what it takes to succeed at the higher level.

So yeah, I am calling it as I see it. I love our team, but I am not going to pretend like we have three quality guards, considering that it was one of our main shortcomings this past year. People like Starks, DSR, and Jason Clark were quality guards. These three don't measure up.

So basically you argue that to be a quality guard, you need to be 1st/2nd team Big East?

How about be a contributing member of a winning team? These three are more than capable.

[Bigs"R"Us]

They can't hit open looks consistently or creat shots for themselves. We need help. You don't suddenly discover a shooting stroke at 20+ years of age.

[sleepy]

Apr 20, 2017 16:36:40 GMT -5 Bigs"R"Us said:

They can't hit open looks consistently or creat shots for themselves. We need help. You don't suddenly discover a shooting stroke at 20+ years of age.

Shooting is all mechanics and muscle memory. A good shooter can absolutely be made at 20+ years of age.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Apr 20, 2017 16:25:42 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

So basically you argue that to be a quality guard, you need to be 1st/2nd team Big East?

How about be a contributing member of a winning team? These three are more than capable.

No, that's not what I am saying. Also, our team didn't win a whole lot, so I am not sure how they contributed to being a winning team. In fact, many of our close losses are probably partially attributable to the fact that outside Pryor and Peak, the guards were often stagnant, with no production.

These were the All Big East Guards:

ALL-BIG EAST FIRST TEAM
Marcus Foster, Creighton, G, Jr., 6-3, 210, Wichita Falls, Tex.
Jalen Brunson, Villanova, G, So., 6-2, 190, Lincolnshire, Ill.
Josh Hart, Villanova, G, Sr., 6-5, 215, Silver Spring, Md.
Trevon Bluiett, Xavier, G, Jr., 6-6, 205, Indianapolis, Ind.

ALL-BIG EAST SECOND TEAM
Kyron Cartwright, Providence, G, Jr., 5-11, 185, Compton, Calif.
Khadeen Carrington, Seton Hall, G, Jr., 6-4, 195, Brooklyn, N.Y.

BIG EAST HONORABLE MENTION
Rodney Pryor, Georgetown, G, Gr., 6-5, 205, Evanston, Ill.
Kris Jenkins, Villanova, G, Sr., 6-6, 235, Upper Marlboro, Md.

Let's see some other guards that were better than ours:

(1) Donte DiVincenzo (Villanova): 112.0 O rating, 12.0 assist rate, 18.1 turnover rate, 56.3% 2PT%, 36.5% 3PT%

(2) Sumner (Xavier): 110.2 O rating, 30.3 assist rate, 19.6 turnover rate, 53.3% 2PT%, 27.3% 3PT%

(3) Malcon Bernard (Xavier): 102.9 O rating, 9.7 assist rate, 22.6 turnover rate, 45.2% 2PT%, 39.3 3PT%

(4) JP Macura (Xavier): 111.4 O rating, 17.2 assist rate, 16.1 turnover rate, 49.6% 2PT%, 34.0 3PT%

(5) Kamar Baldwin (Butler): 106.3 O rating, 10.7 assist rate, 17.2 turnover rate, 55.7% 2PT%, 37.2 3PT%

(6) Avery Woodson (Butler): 123.0 O rating, 5.7 assist rate, 5.3 turnover rate (3rd best in the country), 62.3% 2PT%, 42.1% 3PT%

(7) Sean McDermott (Butler - G/F): 111.5 O rating, 6.9 assist rate, 16.2 turnovr rate, 71.8% 2PT%, 47.6% 3PT%

(8) Khyri Thomas (Creighton): 115.4 O rating, 17.4 assist rate, 17.6 turnover rate, 57.9% 2PT%, 40.0% 3PT%

(9) Ronnie Harrell Jr. (Creighton): 114.6 O rating, 16.4 assist rate, 12.9 turnover rate, 56.7% 2PT%, 18.2% 3PT%

(10) Isaiah Zierden (Creighton): 121.2 O rating, 5.7 assist rate, 16.6 turnover rate, 46.2% 2PT%, 43.0% 3PT%

(11) JuJuan Johnson (Marquette): 105.0 O rating, 18.9 assist rate, 20.2 turnover rate, 51.2% 2PT%, 38.1% 3PT%

(12) Markus Howard (Marquette): 118.6 O rating, 19.9 assist rate, 20.5 turnover rate, 45.4% 2PT%, 54.7 3PT% (nationwide leader)

(13) Katin Reinhardt (Marquette): 110.7 O rating, 14.1 assist rate, 14.1 turnover rate, 44.3% 2PT%, 37.5% 3PT%

(14) Andrew Rowsey (Marquette): 126.7 O rating, 19.7 assist rate, 17.6 turnover rate, 49.3% 2PT%, 44.7% 3PT%

(15) Haanif Cheatham (Marquette): 106.7 O rating, 14.5 assist rate, 18.5 turnover rate, 49.1% 2PT%, 32.5% 3PT%

(16) Marcuss LoVett (St. John's): 108.2 O rating, 24.8 assist rate, 18.3 turnover rate, 51.1% 2PT%, 38.2% 3PT%

(17) Federico Mussini (St. John's): 110.1 O rating, 8.6 assist rate, 15.0 turnover rate, 36.8% 2PT%, 42.7% 3PT%


And this isn't a comprehensive list. So how can you say we have quality guards, when all of the players above are - in most cases - leaps and bounds better than our three?

Any of these guys would help us if they were on our team and play over our bunch.

[hoyarooter]

Neither Michael Cooper nor Magic could shoot worth a damn when they came to the Lakers, and both ended up being pretty good three point shooters (particularly Coop). So there's hope for these guys - if we can keep them for five more seasons.

[calhoya]

I think that players can be coached up to improve their shot and would expect with a good amount of work that could happen with the three returning to the team. Actually Peak improved his outside shot considerably from his freshman year when he was content to just rely upon drives into the lane. That said, Mulmore's mechanics are terrible and though his speed is impressive, it will be harder to take a kid at his stage and simply breakdown his entire form to start over. Campbell suffers from the same streaky shooting that other Hoya guards have in recent years. His problem is not as much mechanics as judgment. He makes poor decisions and often shoots from well beyond any reasonable range. Moreover, he tends to make up his mind to shoot and then force the shot, regardless of the on court circumstances, such as another player having an easier shot. Mosley looks the part of a floor leader. However, some of his shots were so off you could actually watch the ball leave his hand and know it was not going to come close. Still, if anyone can be coached up in this group it would be him. Having said all of that it would be foolish to think that the Hoyas do not need a major upgrade in the guard play over last year.

[bicentennial]

I have to wonder overall it is much easier to find efficient players that are running an efficient offense. There were so many times the past year that terrible plays were made, terrible shots were taken and the team did very poorly. I have to wonder if all three of these guards wouldn't look better if they were playing a 2 guard rather than being asked to play the point. All of them were more combo/2 guards when listed in the recruiting threads but were asked to distribute the ball and all three frequently turned the ball over as a result. Looking at the list above only Sumner and Lovett had a higher assist rate than Mosely and Sumner's turnover rate was even higher. Obviously shooting under 25% from three was not a good number for Mosely but his two and free throw rates both suggest significant shooting promise.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Apr 20, 2017 20:28:48 GMT -5 bicentennial said:

I have to wonder overall it is much easier to find efficient players that are running an efficient offense. There were so many times the past year that terrible plays were made, terrible shots were taken and the team did very poorly. I have to wonder if all three of these guards wouldn't look better if they were playing a 2 guard rather than being asked to play the point. All of them were more combo/2 guards when listed in the recruiting threads but were asked to distribute the ball and all three frequently turned the ball over as a result. Looking at the list above only Sumner and Lovett had a higher assist rate than Mosely and Sumner's turnover rate was even higher. Obviously shooting under 25% from three was not a good number for Mosely but his two and free throw rates both suggest significant shooting promise.

I agree that none of the three are natural points, and Mosely I definitely think is better suited for SG, but none of them shot well. If we had a great point guard who could help get them open shots would they have been better? Maybe, but I still think they're so far off that the efficiency is their skill level, and not how they are being used. I mean, look at all the guards I listed in a post earlier today - there are a huge number of guards in the Big East alone that are way more efficient than ours.

[s4hoyas]

We land Tremont, and all of a sudden we get much more efficient...

[wnyhoya]

Wonder when he's gonna decide. Kinda odd to me that he still has one official visit left and we haven't heard any rumblings about him using it just yet. Could that mean he's deciding from schools he's already visited? Who knows but I know he said last week he wants the process over sooner rather than later...

[hoya2x2010]

Apr 20, 2017 17:16:38 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Apr 20, 2017 16:25:42 GMT -5 jwp91 said:

So basically you argue that to be a quality guard, you need to be 1st/2nd team Big East?

How about be a contributing member of a winning team? These three are more than capable.

No, that's not what I am saying. Also, our team didn't win a whole lot, so I am not sure how they contributed to being a winning team. In fact, many of our close losses are probably partially attributable to the fact that outside Pryor and Peak, the guards were often stagnant, with no production.

These were the All Big East Guards:

ALL-BIG EAST FIRST TEAM
Marcus Foster, Creighton, G, Jr., 6-3, 210, Wichita Falls, Tex.
Jalen Brunson, Villanova, G, So., 6-2, 190, Lincolnshire, Ill.
Josh Hart, Villanova, G, Sr., 6-5, 215, Silver Spring, Md.
Trevon Bluiett, Xavier, G, Jr., 6-6, 205, Indianapolis, Ind.

ALL-BIG EAST SECOND TEAM
Kyron Cartwright, Providence, G, Jr., 5-11, 185, Compton, Calif.
Khadeen Carrington, Seton Hall, G, Jr., 6-4, 195, Brooklyn, N.Y.

BIG EAST HONORABLE MENTION
Rodney Pryor, Georgetown, G, Gr., 6-5, 205, Evanston, Ill.
Kris Jenkins, Villanova, G, Sr., 6-6, 235, Upper Marlboro, Md.

Let's see some other guards that were better than ours:

(1) Donte DiVincenzo (Villanova): 112.0 O rating, 12.0 assist rate, 18.1 turnover rate, 56.3% 2PT%, 36.5% 3PT%

(2) Sumner (Xavier): 110.2 O rating, 30.3 assist rate, 19.6 turnover rate, 53.3% 2PT%, 27.3% 3PT%

(3) Malcon Bernard (Xavier): 102.9 O rating, 9.7 assist rate, 22.6 turnover rate, 45.2% 2PT%, 39.3 3PT%

(4) JP Macura (Xavier): 111.4 O rating, 17.2 assist rate, 16.1 turnover rate, 49.6% 2PT%, 34.0 3PT%

(5) Kamar Baldwin (Butler): 106.3 O rating, 10.7 assist rate, 17.2 turnover rate, 55.7% 2PT%, 37.2 3PT%

(6) Avery Woodson (Butler): 123.0 O rating, 5.7 assist rate, 5.3 turnover rate (3rd best in the country), 62.3% 2PT%, 42.1% 3PT%

(7) Sean McDermott (Butler - G/F): 111.5 O rating, 6.9 assist rate, 16.2 turnovr rate, 71.8% 2PT%, 47.6% 3PT%

(8) Khyri Thomas (Creighton): 115.4 O rating, 17.4 assist rate, 17.6 turnover rate, 57.9% 2PT%, 40.0% 3PT%

(9) Ronnie Harrell Jr. (Creighton): 114.6 O rating, 16.4 assist rate, 12.9 turnover rate, 56.7% 2PT%, 18.2% 3PT%

(10) Isaiah Zierden (Creighton): 121.2 O rating, 5.7 assist rate, 16.6 turnover rate, 46.2% 2PT%, 43.0% 3PT%

(11) JuJuan Johnson (Marquette): 105.0 O rating, 18.9 assist rate, 20.2 turnover rate, 51.2% 2PT%, 38.1% 3PT%

(12) Markus Howard (Marquette): 118.6 O rating, 19.9 assist rate, 20.5 turnover rate, 45.4% 2PT%, 54.7 3PT% (nationwide leader)

(13) Katin Reinhardt (Marquette): 110.7 O rating, 14.1 assist rate, 14.1 turnover rate, 44.3% 2PT%, 37.5% 3PT%

(14) Andrew Rowsey (Marquette): 126.7 O rating, 19.7 assist rate, 17.6 turnover rate, 49.3% 2PT%, 44.7% 3PT%

(15) Haanif Cheatham (Marquette): 106.7 O rating, 14.5 assist rate, 18.5 turnover rate, 49.1% 2PT%, 32.5% 3PT%

(16) Marcuss LoVett (St. John's): 108.2 O rating, 24.8 assist rate, 18.3 turnover rate, 51.1% 2PT%, 38.2% 3PT%

(17) Federico Mussini (St. John's): 110.1 O rating, 8.6 assist rate, 15.0 turnover rate, 36.8% 2PT%, 42.7% 3PT%


And this isn't a comprehensive list. So how can you say we have quality guards, when all of the players above are - in most cases - leaps and bounds better than our three?

Any of these guys would help us if they were on our team and play over our bunch.

I don't know why you would try to introduce facts or logic into this debate. The bottom line for jwp is that we have great guards, forwards, and bigs on this team already. We have simply been unlucky.

[GIGAFAN99]

Not having an offense that's allergic to fast breaks and is a turnover waiting to happen will also help matters.

[Deleted]

Frank Jackson just declared for Duke.

If Duval goes elsewhere, I can't see Waters passing them up.

ON EDIT: saw he's going w/o agent. Might affect things.

[theicon]

another guard being pushed out by Coach K. First Thornton, now Jackson. He's still living on the potential "hype". He's staying the in the draft, the signing without an agent thing buy's everyone time.

[daytonahoya31]

Apr 23, 2017 10:29:31 GMT -5 theicon said:

another guard being pushed out by Coach K. First Thornton, now Jackson. He's still living on the potential "hype". He's staying the in the draft, the signing without an agent thing buy's everyone time.

I was the one who broke the story on Frank declaring for the draft....and yes, you are correct....he's definitely staying in the draft