prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,294
|
Post by prhoya on Apr 20, 2016 15:50:47 GMT -5
Disagree. First, you don't turn away from a proven talent, especially when there is no proven back-up. Until we see him play, AA = Moses A. Second, you don't turn away from a potential NBAer. Third, Govan did not have the best end to the season. The cure for that is a one-two punch. Championships are won with proven depth. One of two things needs to happen for me to feel the same way: Bradley would need to SIGNIFICANTLY raise his defensive prowess. and/or 2 we completely change how we run offense. Just feeding Bradley in the post as our only offense like this year is a mistake with the pieces that we have next year. We're stunting Jessie's growth if we allow this to happen. He hit the freshman wall at the end of the season conditioning-wise. He'll be fantastic next year if given the opportunity I understand your argument about proven depth, but depth is definitely not going to be a problem next year (vigorously knocks on wood). I'd rather see us go to the smaller lineups. We have enough size across the board that we're not really truly going "small" I have nothing against Bradley personally and I wish him well in his next steps, but I do feel it's best for the team to move to more mobile/better outside shooting bigs. Again, that's just my personal opinion. I won't be heartbroken if he does get the waiver obviously! I just think if we want to back up all this talk of changing how we play, the first step is starting fresh with the new blood we have Agree that the first play cannot be everyone very oviously standing around the perimeter and trying to feed it to the C. After last season's disaster, it's about winning right now. Our recent recruting shows that. Having Bradley and Govan gives us the best chance to win a lot of games.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,294
|
Post by prhoya on Apr 20, 2016 16:02:49 GMT -5
Unless Hayes gets significantly quicker and more athletic, he's not a potential NBA player. Putting that aside, Govan had some big games last year as a freshman--17 points on 7/9 shooting and 6 rebounds at Creighton, 27 points on 10-13 shooting with 7 boards and 2 blocks and 2 steals against Big East Champion Seton Hall. 13 points on 4-6 shooting with 6 rebounds and 2 blocks against Xavier. I want to see what he can do as the starting center playing big minutes, not only because he has lottery pick upside, but because he has the ability to be a threat wherever he gets the ball. He shot 50% from behind the arc last year--when he goes out to the top of the key, whether its to set a screen or get the ball, he is a threat that has to be guarded, and he also showed last year that he can drive on centers as well. Honestly, he's the first center we've had that can shoot, dribble and post up, and all of our new attacking guards are going to love how much space he creates for them in the lane. Presumably, he'll also get better at passing too now that he's had a year at the college level, even if he'll never be as good a passer as Monroe or Sims. His defense obviously needs improvement, but that's generally true of freshmen (especially freshmen big men), but he showed he has the ability to be a decent rim protector as well last year. Govan has the chance to be the best player on our team next year if he makes a big jump as a sophomore. The last thing we want to do is limit his minutes by bringing back a center who has one offensive move and who clogs up everything else we do offensively, even if that center is a better (albiet still not very good) defender. Agree to disagree on your evaluation of his NBA future, but we shall see soon. We did see what Govan did as a starting center. The team went 0 of 6. He also had 5 games with 0 points, two of which came at the end of the season. I'm also looking forward to Govan having a great season and another phenomenal 50% average from 3. But, in 17 mpg, he averaged 3 fouls. If he continues to be foul prone or gets injured, I don't want to have to rely on out-of-position 4's like AA, Mourning and White if we can have Captain Hook. The right depth is key.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Apr 20, 2016 16:34:26 GMT -5
Govan has the chance to be the best player on our team next year if he makes a big jump as a sophomore. I'm not sure about that. I guess "the chance" is fair. Btw I think Hayes has more offensive moves, he's scare to make them due to possible reprimand if he misses them. There's a reason JTIII wants him around. I don't know specifically other than he'd be a veteran presence and a bit of a coach. What? Really? I think Govan has more moves. Hayes pretty much has just a hookshot although it looks as if he can hit close-in jumpshots as well as score off the glass. But going through the season edits I made Govan just looks to have more of an offensive arsenal, including advanced drop-step moves.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Apr 20, 2016 16:35:32 GMT -5
Hate to say this but I really hope that if this petition is actually happening that we don't get it. Really would rather having a much more dynamic team with Jessie getting the lions share of minutes. We can debate all we want about how III handled BJ but I think it's time to turn the page on that era of Hoya hoops I sorta lean towards this viewpoint as well. Let the Govan era begin.
|
|
lda05816
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 606
|
Post by lda05816 on Apr 20, 2016 16:38:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure about that. I guess "the chance" is fair. Btw I think Hayes has more offensive moves, he's scare to make them due to possible reprimand if he misses them. There's a reason JTIII wants him around. I don't know specifically other than he'd be a veteran presence and a bit of a coach. What? Really? I think Govan has more moves. Hayes pretty much has just a hookshot although it looks as if he can hit close-in jumpshots as well as score off the glass. But going through the season edits I made Govan just looks to have more of an offensive arsenal, including advanced drop-step moves. I'd say Govan has a wider array of moves, plus the better peremiter scorer obviously. Brads hook shot was probably better than any move Govan had last year though. With a summer to develop, Govan probably at least on par with Hayes in the post.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Apr 20, 2016 16:43:43 GMT -5
Unless Hayes gets significantly quicker and more athletic, he's not a potential NBA player. Putting that aside, Govan had some big games last year as a freshman--17 points on 7/9 shooting and 6 rebounds at Creighton, 27 points on 10-13 shooting with 7 boards and 2 blocks and 2 steals against Big East Champion Seton Hall. 13 points on 4-6 shooting with 6 rebounds and 2 blocks against Xavier. I want to see what he can do as the starting center playing big minutes, not only because he has lottery pick upside, but because he has the ability to be a threat wherever he gets the ball. He shot 50% from behind the arc last year--when he goes out to the top of the key, whether its to set a screen or get the ball, he is a threat that has to be guarded, and he also showed last year that he can drive on centers as well. Honestly, he's the first center we've had that can shoot, dribble and post up, and all of our new attacking guards are going to love how much space he creates for them in the lane. Presumably, he'll also get better at passing too now that he's had a year at the college level, even if he'll never be as good a passer as Monroe or Sims. His defense obviously needs improvement, but that's generally true of freshmen (especially freshmen big men), but he showed he has the ability to be a decent rim protector as well last year. Govan has the chance to be the best player on our team next year if he makes a big jump as a sophomore. The last thing we want to do is limit his minutes by bringing back a center who has one offensive move and who clogs up everything else we do offensively, even if that center is a better (albiet still not very good) defender. Agree to disagree on your evaluation of his NBA future, but we shall see soon. We did see what Govan did as a starting center. The team went 0 of 6. He also had 5 games with 0 points, two of which came at the end of the season. I'm also looking forward to Govan having a great season and another phenomenal 50% average from 3. But, in 17 mpg, he averaged 3 fouls. If he continues to be foul prone or gets injured, I don't want to have to rely on out-of-position 4's like AA, Mourning and White if we can have Captain Hook. The right depth is key. Despite those five games you are pointing out, Govan, as a freshman, actually increased both his points per game and fg% from pre-conference contests to games in the Big East. Hayes, a senior, went the other direction, putting up worse numbers in both categories once BE games started. So despite Govan possibly hitting a wall towards the very end he actually finished stronger overall during conference play than Hayes.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Apr 20, 2016 16:45:41 GMT -5
What? Really? I think Govan has more moves. Hayes pretty much has just a hookshot although it looks as if he can hit close-in jumpshots as well as score off the glass. But going through the season edits I made Govan just looks to have more of an offensive arsenal, including advanced drop-step moves. I'd say Govan has a wider array of moves, plus the better peremiter scorer obviously. Brads hook shot was probably better than any move Govan had last year though. With a summer to develop, Govan probably at least on par with Hayes in the post. I can't argue that.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,294
|
Post by prhoya on Apr 20, 2016 17:17:57 GMT -5
Agree to disagree on your evaluation of his NBA future, but we shall see soon. We did see what Govan did as a starting center. The team went 0 of 6. He also had 5 games with 0 points, two of which came at the end of the season. I'm also looking forward to Govan having a great season and another phenomenal 50% average from 3. But, in 17 mpg, he averaged 3 fouls. If he continues to be foul prone or gets injured, I don't want to have to rely on out-of-position 4's like AA, Mourning and White if we can have Captain Hook. The right depth is key. Despite those five games you are pointing out, Govan, as a freshman, actually increased both his points per game and fg% from pre-conference contests to games in the Big East. Hayes, a senior, went the other direction, putting up worse numbers in both categories once BE games started. So despite Govan possibly hitting a wall towards the very end he actually finished stronger overall during conference play than Hayes. By BE play, Bradley was the marked man (along with DSR) by other BE coaches and Govan was a novelty because Bradley had outplayed him to that point. As to finishing stronger, the last game Hayes played before getting hurt was Feb. 8th, he came back from his injury, scored in double digits the two remaining games and outplayed Govan in those two games. Finally, overall record as a starter in BE games: Hayes was 8-7 and Govan 0-6. Again, one-two punch is best to win it all next year! We've seen too much to believe that an off-season will automatically lead to a better player the next year. After all the injuries last year, JT3 deserves a loaded, available roster. Karma! No excuses!
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Apr 20, 2016 17:36:22 GMT -5
By BE play, Bradley was the marked man (along with DSR) by other BE coaches and Govan was a novelty because Bradley had outplayed him to that point. As to finishing stronger, the last game Hayes played before getting hurt was Feb. 8th, he came back from his injury, scored in double digits the two remaining games and outplayed Govan in those two games. Finally, overall record as a starter in BE games: Hayes was 8-7 and Govan 0-6. Again, one-two punch is best to win it all next year! We've seen too much to believe that an off-season will automatically lead to a better player the next year. After all the injuries last year, JT3 deserves a loaded, available roster. Karma! A marked man? Okay you keep telling yourself that. DSR was marked too as you pointed out but there was no dropoff for him in BE play. And btw the losing streak for the Hoyas had started before Govan was placed into the starting lineup. And when he was in that position he wasn't able to feast on teams like DePaul and St. John's who count for FIVE of Hayes eight wins. And taking it a step further the most impressive win in the BE when Hayes was a starter was the one at Xavier, and in that game Govan was the more dominant player, getting more time, scoring more points and being on the court in the second half when the game was on the line. Look, I like Hayes a lot and was very impressed to learn what he is capable of. Let him play overseas or in the D league for a couple of years and then try a crack at the NBA. I don't think the Hoyas need him next season though. III couldn't get his team into the tourney despite having a 7-foot scoring weapon in the paint that not too many other teams possessed. What's going to be different next season if he came back? It's Govan's time now.
|
|
prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,294
|
Post by prhoya on Apr 20, 2016 17:49:09 GMT -5
By BE play, Bradley was the marked man (along with DSR) by other BE coaches and Govan was a novelty because Bradley had outplayed him to that point. As to finishing stronger, the last game Hayes played before getting hurt was Feb. 8th, he came back from his injury, scored in double digits the two remaining games and outplayed Govan in those two games. Finally, overall record as a starter in BE games: Hayes was 8-7 and Govan 0-6. Again, one-two punch is best to win it all next year! We've seen too much to believe that an off-season will automatically lead to a better player the next year. After all the injuries last year, JT3 deserves a loaded, available roster. Karma! A marked man? Okay you keep telling yourself that. DSR was marked too as you pointed out but there was no dropoff for him in BE play. And btw the losing streak for the Hoyas had started before Govan was placed into the starting lineup. And when he was in that position he wasn't able to feast on teams like DePaul and St. John's who count for FIVE of Hayes eight wins. And taking it a step further the most impressive win in the BE when Hayes was a starter was the one at Xavier, and in that game Govan was the more dominant player, getting more time, scoring more points and being on the court in the second half when the game was on the line. Look, I like Hayes a lot and was very impressed to learn what he is capable of. Let him play overseas or in the D league for a couple of years and then try a crack at the NBA. I don't think the Hoyas need him next season though. III couldn't get his team into the tourney despite having a 7-foot scoring weapon in the paint that not too many other teams possessed. What's going to be different next season if he came back? It's Govan's time now. Getting double-doubles and didn't he also win a weekly honorable mention(s)? Yes, that gets you marked. Govan had the chance to look great and become the starter for the rest of the season when Hayes was out and let's just say he didn't. Hayes came back and started. As to what's going to change next season, I think we have more scoring options which will help both centers. Unfortunately, last season we again saw the packed defenses. Hopefully there's more scoring punch next year which will open everything and create more one-vs-one down low.
|
|
dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
|
Post by dreamhoya on Apr 20, 2016 17:55:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure about that. I guess "the chance" is fair. Btw I think Hayes has more offensive moves, he's scare to make them due to possible reprimand if he misses them. There's a reason JTIII wants him around. I don't know specifically other than he'd be a veteran presence and a bit of a coach. What? Really? I think Govan has more moves. Hayes pretty much has just a hookshot although it looks as if he can hit close-in jumpshots as well as score off the glass. But going through the season edits I made Govan just looks to have more of an offensive arsenal, including advanced drop-step moves. I know. I know. Seems like it doesn't make sense. You have a right to question what I said
|
|
|
Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 20, 2016 20:39:57 GMT -5
B. was our most effective big man in many of our games last season. Jessie was more effective a number of times. It absolutely can't hurt to have the match-up options they both give us. I thought the staff did a pretty good job of identifying which one was giving us more in a particular game and doling out the minutes accordingly. No reason that can't be the case again next year.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Apr 20, 2016 21:02:58 GMT -5
Getting double-doubles and didn't he also win a weekly honorable mention(s)? Yes, that gets you marked. So he pretty much reached his peak in early December against Syracuse. Okay. He didn't fall off because he got marked, he fell off because he hit a lull or he wasn't getting enough touches or BE defenses were tougher and he had to adjust. There wasn't much of a season left and by that time almost the entire team looked mentally beaten, drained. And look at the teams Govan faced when he started: Providence, Seton Hall, Xavier, Butler and Villanova. Those were all of the five Big East teams that made the tourney. The "easiest" game for the Hoyas in those final six regular season contests was the away game at Marquette, on Marquette's senior day.. Then Hayes comes back and gets to feast on DePaul one more time. Nah. The Hoyas didn't face packed defenses all that much last season. Teams were guarding our perimeter players tight considering DSR was our go-to-guy and the Hoyas spent much of the year as the #1 three-point shooting team in the Big East. Hayes and or Govan could have taken 20 shots a game if they wanted to.
|
|
MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,426
|
Post by MCIGuy on Apr 20, 2016 21:07:49 GMT -5
B. was our most effective big man in many of our games last season. Jessie was more effective a number of times. It absolutely can't hurt to have the match-up options they both give us. I thought the staff did a pretty good job of identifying which one was giving us more in a particular game and doling out the minutes accordingly. No reason that can't be the case again next year. Maybe but the frontcourt is already crowded. In these days of "small ball" basketball teams don't need that many bigs. Plus....where does the extra scholarship even come from? Time to move on and go with the younger guys.
|
|
eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
|
Post by eagle54 on Apr 20, 2016 21:14:33 GMT -5
B. was our most effective big man in many of our games last season. Jessie was more effective a number of times. It absolutely can't hurt to have the match-up options they both give us. I thought the staff did a pretty good job of identifying which one was giving us more in a particular game and doling out the minutes accordingly. No reason that can't be the case again next year. Maybe but the frontcourt is already crowded. In these days of "small ball" basketball teams don't need that many bigs. Plus....where does the extra scholarship even come from? Time to move on and go with the younger guys. Hayes needs to move on and let's focus on the younger guys. Let's not act like we are losing Kareem. We should have done that last year when one of our upperclassman wanted to declare for the draft and our season may have let some others blossom. I'm very positive on what we have returning and coming in and think that will gel nicely if they can get coached up in the offseason.
|
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,352
Member is Online
|
Post by calhoya on Apr 20, 2016 21:24:56 GMT -5
I worry about the backup post next season and believe that Govan must focus on his quickness and strengthening his hands this summer. That said, bringing Hayes back may hurt the development of Akoy and Mourning, even more than Govan. Akoy has less game experience than Mourning and Mourning still needs a lot of playing time. We should have decent rebounding guards and wings to offset the lack of a true post backing up Govan.
|
|
dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
|
Post by dreamhoya on Apr 20, 2016 21:25:28 GMT -5
What? Really? I think Govan has more moves. Hayes pretty much has just a hookshot although it looks as if he can hit close-in jumpshots as well as score off the glass. But going through the season edits I made Govan just looks to have more of an offensive arsenal, including advanced drop-step moves. I'd say Govan has a wider array of moves, plus the better peremiter scorer obviously. Brads hook shot was probably better than any move Govan had last year though. With a summer to develop, Govan probably at least on par with Hayes in the post. Im never said Hayes has more moves than Govan; I was saying Hayes has more moves than he has showcased. I like Govan a lot.
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,896
Member is Online
|
Post by EtomicB on Apr 20, 2016 21:35:12 GMT -5
Getting double-doubles and didn't he also win a weekly honorable mention(s)? Yes, that gets you marked. So he pretty much reached his peak in early December against Syracuse. Okay. He didn't fall off because he got marked, he fell off because he hit a lull or he wasn't getting enough touches or BE defenses were tougher and he had to adjust. There wasn't much of a season left and by that time almost the entire team looked mentally beaten, drained. And look at the teams Govan faced when he started: Providence, Seton Hall, Xavier, Butler and Villanova. Those were all of the five Big East teams that made the tourney. The "easiest" game for the Hoyas in those final six regular season contests was the away game at Marquette, on Marquette's senior day.. Then Hayes comes back and gets to feast on DePaul one more time. Nah. The Hoyas didn't face packed defenses all that much last season. Teams were guarding our perimeter players tight considering DSR was our go-to-guy and the Hoyas spent much of the year as the #1 three-point shooting team in the Big East. Hayes and or Govan could have taken 20 shots a game if they wanted to. Be fair MCI, Hayes did have 13 & 9 against the eventual national champs in his 2nd game back from injury.. A game Govan put up a goose egg in btw.. I'd like to see the extra year given because the staff completely mis-handled his time here, to lose a year of eligibility for 14 minutes over 9 games as a freshman is silly imo.. It should never have come to this..
|
|
|
Post by professorhoya on Apr 20, 2016 21:54:35 GMT -5
If you can get a one two punch at center you do it. Villanova won the title with 6-11 245 lbs (7-3 wingspan) big boy Daniel Ocehfu. So even though people say they play small ball they needed that big man to win the title.
They really didn't have an adequate backup for Ochefu and rode Ochefu during the tournament. If Ochefu's ankle injury during the tournament had been more serious or if he gotten into foul trouble, Villanova would have been in big trouble. I'm not sure why UNC didn't attack Ochefu as getting Ochefu in foul trouble would have been an easy way to win the title game.
You have Govan and Hayes and throw in Agau and we really don't have to worry about foul trouble or someone getting injured at the big man spot.
|
|
eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
|
Post by eagle54 on Apr 20, 2016 22:03:59 GMT -5
If you can get a one two punch at center you do it. Villanova won the title with 6-11 245 lbs (7-3 wingspan) big boy Daniel Ocehfu. So even though people say they play small ball they needed that big man to win the title. They really didn't have an adequate backup for Ochefu and rode Ochefu during the tournament. If Ochefu's ankle injury during the tournament had been more serious or if he gotten into foul trouble, Villanova would have been in big trouble. I'm not sure why UNC didn't attack Ochefu as getting Ochefu in foul trouble would have been an easy way to win the title game. You have Govan and Hayes and throw in Agau and we really don't have to worry about foul trouble or someone getting injured at the big man spot. Only flaw in your analogy is Ochefu is good. Hayes is not. Govan can be very good as he is way more talented than Hayes but needs to develop and Hayes coming back will impede that.
|
|