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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 19, 2016 14:32:17 GMT -5
If we have to go through another year of hearing how Hayes needs more time I just can't even. Careful what you wish for. This board (and Hoya fans in general) can always come up with an even worse topic Don't worry. Someone among our 13 scholarship players won't get a lot of minutes next year, and whoever it is will develop a fan club that argues that if only that person played better, the team would be so much better off. My early prediction is Trey Mourning, but we'll see. I actually think if Hayes came back he would get a lot of minutes because JT3 clearly valued him this past season.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 19, 2016 15:12:40 GMT -5
I would think that the program would not waste everyone's time, and get B's hopes up, unless they had a legitimate reason to believe there was more than a "shot in the dark".
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 19, 2016 16:44:25 GMT -5
You can also receive a redshirt for financial reasons, family illness or a coach making repeated discriminating and insulting remarks. So it really is in a case by case basis and it seems like the rule is flexible.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 19, 2016 17:54:45 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity (I swear, no trolling or baseless speculation) but if Hayes got a waiver/medical redshirt and ended up with an additional year of eligibility, could he take his talents elsewhere as a graduate student transfer? Asking for a friend.... 123 Fireballs I have it on very bad authority that Hayes wants to transfer to UMCP to replace Diamond Stone.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Apr 19, 2016 18:04:12 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity (I swear, no trolling or baseless speculation) but if Hayes got a waiver/medical redshirt and ended up with an additional year of eligibility, could he take his talents elsewhere as a graduate student transfer? Asking for a friend.... 123 Fireballs I have it on very bad authority that Hayes wants to transfer to UMCP to replace Diamond Stone. The better the source's sense of humor, the better the source
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 19, 2016 18:31:58 GMT -5
Here is the exact wording from the 2016 NCAA Manual. Since we're citing various web sites, it might help to go to the source. 12.8.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of “hardship.” Hardship is defined as an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions: (Revised: 1/10/92 effective 8/1/92, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 11/1/01, 4/3/02, 8/8/02, 3/10/04, 5/11/05, 8/4/05, 4/26/07, 9/18/07, 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08, 4/24/08, 7/31/14) (a) The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any twoyear or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete’s senior year in high school; (b) The injury or illness occurs prior to the first competition of the second half of the playing season that concludes with the NCAA championship in that sport (see Bylaw 12.8.4.3.4) and results in incapacity to compete for the remainder of that playing season; (c) In team sports, the injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three contests or dates of competition (whichever is applicable to that sport) or 30 percent (whichever number is greater) of the institution’s scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition in his or her sport. Only scheduled or completed competition against outside participants during the playing season that concludes with the NCAA championship, or, if so designated, during the official NCAA championship playing season in that sport (e.g., spring baseball, fall soccer), shall be countable under this limitation in calculating both the number of contests or dates of competition in which the student-athlete has participated and the number of scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition during that season in the sport. Dates of competition that are exempted (e.g., alumni contests, foreign team in the United States) from the maximum permissible number of contests or dates of competition shall count toward the number of contests or dates in which the student-athlete has participated and the number of scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition in the season, except for scrimmages and exhibition contests that are specifically identified as such in the sport’s Bylaw 17 playing and practice season regulations. Scrimmages and exhibition contests that are not exempted from the maximum permissible number of contests or dates of competition may be excluded from the calculation only if they are identified as such in the sport’s Bylaw 17 playing and practice season regulations; and (d) In individual sports, the injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three dates of competition or 30 percent (whichever number is greater) of the maximum permissible number of dates of competition as set forth in Bylaw 17 plus one date for a conference championship (e.g., gymnastics: 13+1=14, wrestling: 16+1=17), regardless of whether the team participates in the conference championship, provided the institution is a member of a conference and the conference holds a championship event in the applicable sport. Dates of competition that are exempted per Bylaw 17 (e.g., alumni contests, foreign team in the United States) from the maximum permissible number of dates of competition do not count toward the number of dates in which the student-athlete has participated. You left out this part: Bylaw 14.2.4.2.1 - Review of Denied Waiver.A conference that denies an institution’s hardship waiver may submit the waiver to the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement. The committee shall have the authority to review and determine whether to approve the waiver based on circumstances that may warrant relief from the application of the legislated waiver criteria.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Apr 19, 2016 18:45:20 GMT -5
I love you guys, man. Thank you for the information.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 19, 2016 21:23:35 GMT -5
I thought that there is always the option to use a redshirt. Personally, I am in favor of utilizing that option from time to time. Well if this is the case then as far as I'm concerned the blame falls on us. III pretty much put Hayes in storage for almost 3 years. Was Hayes’ ready for major minutes when he first arrived? No. But as I asked back about four years ago why are we handing out a schollie for a late spring signing for some unheralded kid unless we were planning on using him, even if for a few minutes a week? To not play him for pretty much two whole seasons was wasting a scholarship IMO. Even if he was just a project my feelings were that giving him time on the court, even limited minutes, could help accelerate his growth. But I've been consistent about the idea that getting run on the court in real games that matter could turn on the switch for some players better than years of practice could. Anyone recall III saying that the only reason he played Roy Hibbert his first season was because he had absolutely no other options? Well, I believe him and if III had a couple of Mikael Hopkins on his roster at that time Roy would have sat almost the entire season. And I'm convinced that would have stunted his growth to some extent. Getting back to Hayes.....if he appeared to be so behind any expectations that time on the court would have been a disaster, then III probably should have redshirted him his first season. After all a scholarship is an investment and III saw enough potential and upside in Hayes to pursue him late his senior year despite his being unheralded. Protect the investment by giving him more time to develop and an extra year in school in case that potential is realized. Instead III didn't redshirt him...but he pretty much didn't play him either. It would take Hayes late into his junior season before he magically showed high D1 ability to play on the court. And, yes, I'm being sarcastic. Granted I can't deny with absolute certainty that Hayes only got to that level of play thanks to years of gaining confidence and skill as a result of practicing. But if I claim things could have clicked faster for Hayes if he had gotten more run earlier in his time at GU, can others claim with absolute certainty that wouldn't have been the case either? To me this is like the Henry Sims situation all over again, albeit with maybe a few differences. In both cases we as fans saw this big man blossom out of nowhere his senior season and wished he had another year to play.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Apr 19, 2016 21:53:56 GMT -5
I thought that there is always the option to use a redshirt. Personally, I am in favor of utilizing that option from time to time. Well if this is the case then as far as I'm concerned the blame falls on us. III pretty much put Hayes in storage for almost 3 years. Was Hayes’ ready for major minutes when he first arrived? No. But as I asked back about four years ago why are we handing out a schollie for a late spring signing for some unheralded kid unless we were planning on using him, even if for a few minutes a week? To not play him for pretty much two whole seasons was wasting a scholarship IMO. Even if he was just a project my feelings were that giving him time on the court, even limited minutes, could help accelerate his growth. But I've been consistent about the idea that getting run on the court in real games that matter could turn on the switch for some players better than years of practice could. Anyone recall III saying that the only reason he played Roy Hibbert his first season was because he had absolutely no other options? Well, I believe him and if III had a couple of Mikael Hopkins on his roster at that time Roy would have sat almost the entire season. And I'm convinced that would have stunted his growth to some extent. Getting back to Hayes.....if he appeared to be so behind any expectations that time on the court would have been a disaster, then III probably should have redshirted him his first season. After all a scholarship is an investment and III saw enough potential and upside in Hayes to pursue him late his senior year despite his being unheralded. Protect the investment by giving him more time to develop and an extra year in school in case that potential is realized. Instead III didn't redshirt him...but he pretty much didn't play him either. It would take Hayes late into his junior season before he magically showed high D1 ability to play on the court. And, yes, I'm being sarcastic. Granted I can't deny with absolute certainty that Hayes only got to that level of play thanks to years of gaining confidence and skill as a result of practicing. But if I claim things could have clicked faster for Hayes if he had gotten more run earlier in his time at GU, can others claim with absolute certainty that wouldn't have been the case either? To me this is like the Henry Sims situation all over again, albeit with maybe a few differences. In both cases we as fans saw this big man blossom out of nowhere his senior season and wished he had another year to play. Completely agree with all of this. To waste a year of eligibility as may have occurred Hayes first year is hard to explain, unless there was an agreement with the player not to redshirt that year. Even then hard to understand.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 19, 2016 22:00:56 GMT -5
I thought that there is always the option to use a redshirt. Personally, I am in favor of utilizing that option from time to time. Well if this is the case then as far as I'm concerned the blame falls on us. III pretty much put Hayes in storage for almost 3 years. Was Hayes’ ready for major minutes when he first arrived? No. But as I asked back about four years ago why are we handing out a schollie for a late spring signing for some unheralded kid unless we were planning on using him, even if for a few minutes a week? To not play him for pretty much two whole seasons was wasting a scholarship IMO. Even if he was just a project my feelings were that giving him time on the court, even limited minutes, could help accelerate his growth. But I've been consistent about the idea that getting run on the court in real games that matter could turn on the switch for some players better than years of practice could. Anyone recall III saying that the only reason he played Roy Hibbert his first season was because he had absolutely no other options? Well, I believe him and if III had a couple of Mikael Hopkins on his roster at that time Roy would have sat almost the entire season. And I'm convinced that would have stunted his growth to some extent. Getting back to Hayes.....if he appeared to be so behind any expectations that time on the court would have been a disaster, then III probably should have redshirted him his first season. After all a scholarship is an investment and III saw enough potential and upside in Hayes to pursue him late his senior year despite his being unheralded. Protect the investment by giving him more time to develop and an extra year in school in case that potential is realized. Instead III didn't redshirt him...but he pretty much didn't play him either. It would take Hayes late into his junior season before he magically showed high D1 ability to play on the court. And, yes, I'm being sarcastic. Granted I can't deny with absolute certainty that Hayes only got to that level of play thanks to years of gaining confidence and skill as a result of practicing. But if I claim things could have clicked faster for Hayes if he had gotten more run earlier in his time at GU, can others claim with absolute certainty that wouldn't have been the case either? To me this is like the Henry Sims situation all over again, albeit with maybe a few differences. In both cases we as fans saw this big man blossom out of nowhere his senior season and wished he had another year to play. I would disagree on Sims. Sims had 7 minutes a game his sophomore year, 14 his junior and 27 his senior year. (can't find his minutes per game for his freshman year for some reason). They played him much more than Hayes and in Sims case he even admitted he was enjoying college too much and not focusing on basketball. It was when JTIII sent him home for the summer that he really started to take basketball seriously and everything started to click. He's had a couple stints in the NBA and has earned over 2 million dollar so far. I'm sure Sims is very grateful for the way he was handled by JTIII and it's another example of why big man recruits want to come here because if you can take an under the radar guy like Sims and turn him into an NBA player with cash earnings of $2 million we are doing something right here.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 19, 2016 22:16:20 GMT -5
Well if this is the case then as far as I'm concerned the blame falls on us. III pretty much put Hayes in storage for almost 3 years. Was Hayes’ ready for major minutes when he first arrived? No. But as I asked back about four years ago why are we handing out a schollie for a late spring signing for some unheralded kid unless we were planning on using him, even if for a few minutes a week? To not play him for pretty much two whole seasons was wasting a scholarship IMO. Even if he was just a project my feelings were that giving him time on the court, even limited minutes, could help accelerate his growth. But I've been consistent about the idea that getting run on the court in real games that matter could turn on the switch for some players better than years of practice could. Anyone recall III saying that the only reason he played Roy Hibbert his first season was because he had absolutely no other options? Well, I believe him and if III had a couple of Mikael Hopkins on his roster at that time Roy would have sat almost the entire season. And I'm convinced that would have stunted his growth to some extent. Getting back to Hayes.....if he appeared to be so behind any expectations that time on the court would have been a disaster, then III probably should have redshirted him his first season. After all a scholarship is an investment and III saw enough potential and upside in Hayes to pursue him late his senior year despite his being unheralded. Protect the investment by giving him more time to develop and an extra year in school in case that potential is realized. Instead III didn't redshirt him...but he pretty much didn't play him either. It would take Hayes late into his junior season before he magically showed high D1 ability to play on the court. And, yes, I'm being sarcastic. Granted I can't deny with absolute certainty that Hayes only got to that level of play thanks to years of gaining confidence and skill as a result of practicing. But if I claim things could have clicked faster for Hayes if he had gotten more run earlier in his time at GU, can others claim with absolute certainty that wouldn't have been the case either? To me this is like the Henry Sims situation all over again, albeit with maybe a few differences. In both cases we as fans saw this big man blossom out of nowhere his senior season and wished he had another year to play. I would disagree on Sims. Sims had 7 minutes a game his sophomore year, 14 his junior and 27 his senior year. (can't find his minutes per game for his freshman year for some reason). They played him much more than Hayes and in Sims case he even admitted he was enjoying college too much and not focusing on basketball. It was when JTIII sent him home for the summer that he really started to take basketball seriously and everything started to click. He's had a couple stints in the NBA and has earned over 2 million dollar so far. I'm sure Sims is very grateful for the way he was handled by JTIII and it's another example of why big man recruits want to come here because if you can take an under the radar guy like Sims and turn him into an NBA player with cash earnings of $2 million we are doing something right here. I stand corrected on Sim's minutes prior to his senior season. But he wasn't an under-the-radar recruit coming out of high school like Hayes. He was a top 50-60 recruit.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Apr 19, 2016 22:22:40 GMT -5
My impression is Sims was a much bigger recruit that underachieved until his senior year and as someone pointed out, he had a bit too much fun with college life. I don't think they did anything wrong with him but did finally motivate him and he salvaged a nice senior season and then has hung around the NBA to make some money. Good for him.
I think Hayes was a marginal recruit who could have easily been red-shirted but no foresight as to whether he'd ever develop into anything. To be honest I say let him go and let's get on with it with the younger guys. I clearly think having DSR around this past season changed the dynamic of the team as the younger players continued to acquiesce to him and not move forward.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Apr 19, 2016 22:25:18 GMT -5
I would disagree on Sims. Sims had 7 minutes a game his sophomore year, 14 his junior and 27 his senior year. (can't find his minutes per game for his freshman year for some reason). They played him much more than Hayes and in Sims case he even admitted he was enjoying college too much and not focusing on basketball. It was when JTIII sent him home for the summer that he really started to take basketball seriously and everything started to click. He's had a couple stints in the NBA and has earned over 2 million dollar so far. I'm sure Sims is very grateful for the way he was handled by JTIII and it's another example of why big man recruits want to come here because if you can take an under the radar guy like Sims and turn him into an NBA player with cash earnings of $2 million we are doing something right here. I stand corrected on Sim's minutes prior to his senior season. But he wasn't an under-the-radar recruit coming out of high school like Hayes. He was a top 50-60 recruit. He was always ranked on potential, as even in HS he would be pushed around a lot by smaller players, according to friends who saw a bunch of games in person. His is really a development story, and also a maturity one. He had skills, and many scouts could see it; he didn't seriously put them to use until he was about to graduate, and that does happens sometimes with bigs. I am happy it worked out for Hank, and if he keeps up the good play, he could see some nice paydays for quite a few more years yet.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Apr 20, 2016 7:46:31 GMT -5
Hate to say this but I really hope that if this petition is actually happening that we don't get it. Really would rather having a much more dynamic team with Jessie getting the lions share of minutes.
We can debate all we want about how III handled BJ but I think it's time to turn the page on that era of Hoya hoops
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 20, 2016 8:11:05 GMT -5
Hate to say this but I really hope that if this petition is actually happening that we don't get it. Really would rather having a much more dynamic team with Jessie getting the lions share of minutes. We can debate all we want about how III handled BJ but I think it's time to turn the page on that era of Hoya hoops Disagree. First, you don't turn away from a proven talent, especially when there is no proven back-up. Until we see him play, AA = Moses A. Second, you don't turn away from a potential NBAer. Third, Govan did not have the best end to the season. The cure for that is a one-two punch. Championships are won with proven depth.
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Post by HoyasAreHungry on Apr 20, 2016 9:24:54 GMT -5
Hate to say this but I really hope that if this petition is actually happening that we don't get it. Really would rather having a much more dynamic team with Jessie getting the lions share of minutes. We can debate all we want about how III handled BJ but I think it's time to turn the page on that era of Hoya hoops Disagree. First, you don't turn away from a proven talent, especially when there is no proven back-up. Until we see him play, AA = Moses A. Second, you don't turn away from a potential NBAer. Third, Govan did not have the best end to the season. The cure for that is a one-two punch. Championships are won with proven depth. One of two things needs to happen for me to feel the same way: Bradley would need to SIGNIFICANTLY raise his defensive prowess. and/or 2 we completely change how we run offense. Just feeding Bradley in the post as our only offense like this year is a mistake with the pieces that we have next year. We're stunting Jessie's growth if we allow this to happen. He hit the freshman wall at the end of the season conditioning-wise. He'll be fantastic next year if given the opportunity I understand your argument about proven depth, but depth is definitely not going to be a problem next year (vigorously knocks on wood). I'd rather see us go to the smaller lineups. We have enough size across the board that we're not really truly going "small" I have nothing against Bradley personally and I wish him well in his next steps, but I do feel it's best for the team to move to more mobile/better outside shooting bigs. Again, that's just my personal opinion. I won't be heartbroken if he does get the waiver obviously! I just think if we want to back up all this talk of changing how we play, the first step is starting fresh with the new blood we have
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Apr 20, 2016 9:47:02 GMT -5
Hate to say this but I really hope that if this petition is actually happening that we don't get it. Really would rather having a much more dynamic team with Jessie getting the lions share of minutes. We can debate all we want about how III handled BJ but I think it's time to turn the page on that era of Hoya hoops Disagree. First, you don't turn away from a proven talent, especially when there is no proven back-up. Until we see him play, AA = Moses A. Second, you don't turn away from a potential NBAer. Third, Govan did not have the best end to the season. The cure for that is a one-two punch. Championships are won with proven depth. Totally agree with this take. I think BJ's leadership ability would be very helpful next year as well. I don't expect the redshirt to be granted, but if it is, would just add to a very strong start to the offseason.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 20, 2016 10:06:04 GMT -5
Disagree. First, you don't turn away from a proven talent, especially when there is no proven back-up. Until we see him play, AA = Moses A. Second, you don't turn away from a potential NBAer. Third, Govan did not have the best end to the season. The cure for that is a one-two punch. Championships are won with proven depth. Totally agree with this take. I think BJ's leadership ability would be very helpful next year as well. I don't expect the redshirt to be granted, but if it is, would just add to a very strong start to the offseason. Unless Hayes gets significantly quicker and more athletic, he's not a potential NBA player. Putting that aside, Govan had some big games last year as a freshman--17 points on 7/9 shooting and 6 rebounds at Creighton, 27 points on 10-13 shooting with 7 boards and 2 blocks and 2 steals against Big East Champion Seton Hall. 13 points on 4-6 shooting with 6 rebounds and 2 blocks against Xavier. I want to see what he can do as the starting center playing big minutes, not only because he has lottery pick upside, but because he has the ability to be a threat wherever he gets the ball. He shot 50% from behind the arc last year--when he goes out to the top of the key, whether its to set a screen or get the ball, he is a threat that has to be guarded, and he also showed last year that he can drive on centers as well. Honestly, he's the first center we've had that can shoot, dribble and post up, and all of our new attacking guards are going to love how much space he creates for them in the lane. Presumably, he'll also get better at passing too now that he's had a year at the college level, even if he'll never be as good a passer as Monroe or Sims. His defense obviously needs improvement, but that's generally true of freshmen (especially freshmen big men), but he showed he has the ability to be a decent rim protector as well last year. Govan has the chance to be the best player on our team next year if he makes a big jump as a sophomore. The last thing we want to do is limit his minutes by bringing back a center who has one offensive move and who clogs up everything else we do offensively, even if that center is a better (albiet still not very good) defender.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Apr 20, 2016 10:53:56 GMT -5
Hate to say this but I really hope that if this petition is actually happening that we don't get it. Really would rather having a much more dynamic team with Jessie getting the lions share of minutes. We can debate all we want about how III handled BJ but I think it's time to turn the page on that era of Hoya hoops Who'll back Jesse up? Go small?
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Apr 20, 2016 10:57:01 GMT -5
Totally agree with this take. I think BJ's leadership ability would be very helpful next year as well. I don't expect the redshirt to be granted, but if it is, would just add to a very strong start to the offseason. Govan has the chance to be the best player on our team next year if he makes a big jump as a sophomore. I'm not sure about that. I guess "the chance" is fair. Btw I think Hayes has more offensive moves, he's scare to make them due to possible reprimand if he misses them. There's a reason JTIII wants him around. I don't know specifically other than he'd be a veteran presence and a bit of a coach.
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