bamahoya11
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bamahoya11 on Jan 22, 2017 18:41:28 GMT -5
The specter of DePaul doesn't scare me anymore. DePaul was bad, they fired a coach, and they're still bad. We are bad, and unless something changes (JTIII figures it out, new coach) we will be bad. We have to make some sort of change, whatever we decide to do, or we will reap the same results.
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bamahoya11
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bamahoya11 on Jan 22, 2017 19:02:11 GMT -5
I will also note, at expense of double posting, that DFW mentioned Murry Bartow as another father son example (your knowledge of the game amazes me). I have experience with that transition. UAB made the decision to fire Murry, the son of Gene Bartow who literally created basketball at UAB.
UAB replaced Bartow with upstart Birmingham native Mike Anderson. In Anderson's first season, he knocked off Dwayne Wade and Marquette en route to a deep in NIT run. In his second season, he brought Conference USA hardware to Birmingham and knocked off #1 Kentucky on his way to the Sweet 16. In his third season, he knocked off SEC champion LSU on his way to the round of 32. He totally re energized UAB and introduced many new fans to the college game in football heavy Alabama, including yours truly. I still get chills remembering my first games at Bartow arena watching those UAB teams. That was one transition from the son of a legend that went really, really well.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 22, 2017 19:27:30 GMT -5
Eagle, I do think you are pretty insightful on issue spotting, but I don't see how you can continue to say that this team would be a lot better with a different coach. We don't get easy looks because we don't have a PG that can set-up or initiate the offense. College Bball is won at the PG positon nowadays. Without one, it really doesn't matter how much front court talent you have as you won't be able to exploit that advantage by getting easy looks. I'm starting to watch without emotion and more with an analytical eye to try and see how this team can be developed. This season, it can't be. Too much inconsistency from game to game by the individual players. Open looks is not the problem. We got open looks today. |
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jan 22, 2017 19:54:38 GMT -5
Eagle, I do think you are pretty insightful on issue spotting, but I don't see how you can continue to say that this team would be a lot better with a different coach. We don't get easy looks because we don't have a PG that can set-up or initiate the offense. College Bball is won at the PG positon nowadays. Without one, it really doesn't matter how much front court talent you have as you won't be able to exploit that advantage by getting easy looks. I'm starting to watch without emotion and more with an analytical eye to try and see how this team can be developed. This season, it can't be. Too much inconsistency from game to game by the individual players. Open looks is not the problem. We got open looks today. Easy looks, not just open looks. Shots you create through your own offense by way of a facilitator (or two or three), not the defense laying off guys who serve no threat to score from beyond the arc. Xavier's guards give them better looks. It forces the opposing defense's hand. It is why you see such a huge foul disparity. They have facilitators. We don't. We literally bring the ball up, toss it around, and hope someone (most likely Peak or Pryor) gets open. |
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,605
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Post by prhoya on Jan 22, 2017 20:19:45 GMT -5
Another excellent pov from the OP of the above piece:
"In this piece I am not suggesting that Georgetown is DePaul, nor that JT3 is Joey Meyer - YET My fear, though, is that we are headed in that direction at an increasing speed, and that if we don’t do something soon (bring in a new coach) the program may have been done irreversible damage. The trend is very definitely not our friend, and it feels like the clock is ticking. As for the argument that we might be even worse off without JT3, sure anything is possible. But that seems like an awful reason to do nothing. Let me ask this, if JT3 were a money manager who had badly underperformed the market indices in 3 of the last 4 years, and, in fact, had LOST you money in aggregate over the 4 years (i.e., losing New Big East record) while the market had rallied considerably over that time, would you keep your money with him going forward? And let’s say that the performance is just getting worse with time: That the money manager’s investment record has gotten far worse over the most recent 2 years, and that he has lost you considerable money during that time while the market (i.e., the New Big East conference as a whole) has soared. Would you still keep your money with him? Oh, and what if, on top of this unacceptable, and worsening, performance his fees were in the highest decile for the industry? And what if he couldn’t cogently explain why he is losing you money, and won’t accept the blame for having lost you money? I don’t care how nice he is, how many good bottles of wine he has sent you, and how many sporting events he has taken you to, there is no way that a reasonable person would keep their money with this guy. What they would do is learn from the experience, and do thorough due diligence to find a new money manager who is much more in synch with the markets, who has performed well lately, and who is a better choice to help you reach your financial objectives. Similarly, if Georgetown does the right due diligence in hiring a new coach – one who is more in synch with today’s game and has done well lately – we stand a much better chance of meeting our program’s objectives than we do staying with the status quo. Also, the contention that at Georgetown it’s more than just about wins and losses is fair, and admirable. No one is suggesting that we should start to operate like an SEC school. But there are plenty of good coaches who turn out winning teams and winning people. There seems to be a suggestion that JT3 does it "the right way", so should get leniency for his poor performance. There is a suggestion that JT3 runs a "better" program than our peers, so he deserves a pass. The best quantitative way to measure this is through a program’s APR scores. Based on the latest scores released by the NCAA after last season, Georgetown’s men’s basketball program was tied with St. John’s for the second WORST APR score of all Big East School. Notably, only DePaul’s was worse. All of the team’s that have performed far better than us on the court since the New Big East began have also performed far better than us off of the court as well – as judged by this measure. And this is a score calculated on a rolling 4-year basis, so this can’t be explained away as a one year blip. And the men’s basketball program has done far worse by this metric than has any of the other Georgetown athletic programs that received scores. Qualitatively, we’ve certainly had our fair share of transfers during JT3’s tenure, have taken guys with attitude concerns (i.e., Josh Smith – who did not graduate), and are now taking Juco Transfers and 1-year Grad Transfers. And I’m in favor of all of this – I think that it improves the chances that the team will do better, and is consistent with what most other schools do. But it rebuts the argument that JT3 somehow does things differently, better than his peers, off the court. And yes, I’ve met a lot of the players over the years and have been impressed. While I take pride in that, it’s certainly not unique to JT3 or Georgetown. From a recruiting standpoint JT3 isn’t doing anything differently from the coaches at our peer schools. And, per the APR scores, off the court he’s running a program that over an extended period has underperformed our peers. So the fact that this is more than just about wins and losses at Georgetown does not at all, as far as I’m concerned, detract from the argument that we need a new coach. Posted by Yayaowinje on Jan 19, 2017 | 6:05 PM" Go ahead, 2003, poke away. Changing money managers or not? Also, I had no idea about our BE-worst APR score. It bursts the bubble of those few posters who defend JT3's horrible NBE record with the "more than just about wins" line.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,665
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Post by guru on Jan 22, 2017 20:44:23 GMT -5
Another excellent pov from the OP of the above piece:
"In this piece I am not suggesting that Georgetown is DePaul, nor that JT3 is Joey Meyer - YET My fear, though, is that we are headed in that direction at an increasing speed, and that if we don’t do something soon (bring in a new coach) the program may have been done irreversible damage. The trend is very definitely not our friend, and it feels like the clock is ticking. As for the argument that we might be even worse off without JT3, sure anything is possible. But that seems like an awful reason to do nothing. Let me ask this, if JT3 were a money manager who had badly underperformed the market indices in 3 of the last 4 years, and, in fact, had LOST you money in aggregate over the 4 years (i.e., losing New Big East record) while the market had rallied considerably over that time, would you keep your money with him going forward? And let’s say that the performance is just getting worse with time: That the money manager’s investment record has gotten far worse over the most recent 2 years, and that he has lost you considerable money during that time while the market (i.e., the New Big East conference as a whole) has soared. Would you still keep your money with him? Oh, and what if, on top of this unacceptable, and worsening, performance his fees were in the highest decile for the industry? And what if he couldn’t cogently explain why he is losing you money, and won’t accept the blame for having lost you money? I don’t care how nice he is, how many good bottles of wine he has sent you, and how many sporting events he has taken you to, there is no way that a reasonable person would keep their money with this guy. What they would do is learn from the experience, and do thorough due diligence to find a new money manager who is much more in synch with the markets, who has performed well lately, and who is a better choice to help you reach your financial objectives. Similarly, if Georgetown does the right due diligence in hiring a new coach – one who is more in synch with today’s game and has done well lately – we stand a much better chance of meeting our program’s objectives than we do staying with the status quo. Also, the contention that at Georgetown it’s more than just about wins and losses is fair, and admirable. No one is suggesting that we should start to operate like an SEC school. But there are plenty of good coaches who turn out winning teams and winning people. There seems to be a suggestion that JT3 does it "the right way", so should get leniency for his poor performance. There is a suggestion that JT3 runs a "better" program than our peers, so he deserves a pass. The best quantitative way to measure this is through a program’s APR scores. Based on the latest scores released by the NCAA after last season, Georgetown’s men’s basketball program was tied with St. John’s for the second WORST APR score of all Big East School. Notably, only DePaul’s was worse. All of the team’s that have performed far better than us on the court since the New Big East began have also performed far better than us off of the court as well – as judged by this measure. And this is a score calculated on a rolling 4-year basis, so this can’t be explained away as a one year blip. And the men’s basketball program has done far worse by this metric than has any of the other Georgetown athletic programs that received scores. Qualitatively, we’ve certainly had our fair share of transfers during JT3’s tenure, have taken guys with attitude concerns (i.e., Josh Smith – who did not graduate), and are now taking Juco Transfers and 1-year Grad Transfers. And I’m in favor of all of this – I think that it improves the chances that the team will do better, and is consistent with what most other schools do. But it rebuts the argument that JT3 somehow does things differently, better than his peers, off the court. And yes, I’ve met a lot of the players over the years and have been impressed. While I take pride in that, it’s certainly not unique to JT3 or Georgetown. From a recruiting standpoint JT3 isn’t doing anything differently from the coaches at our peer schools. And, per the APR scores, off the court he’s running a program that over an extended period has underperformed our peers. So the fact that this is more than just about wins and losses at Georgetown does not at all, as far as I’m concerned, detract from the argument that we need a new coach. Posted by Yayaowinje on Jan 19, 2017 | 6:05 PM" Go ahead, 2003, poke away. Changing money managers or not? Also, I had no idea about our BE-worst APR score. It bursts the bubble of those few posters who defend JT3's horrible NBE record with the "more than just about wins" line. The APR stuff just compounds the issues with this program. We have good kids who don't get in trouble, but academic issues have not been uncommon. |
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 22, 2017 20:47:55 GMT -5
Open looks is not the problem. We got open looks today. Easy looks, not just open looks. Shots you create through your own offense by way of a facilitator (or two or three), not the defense laying off guys who serve no threat to score from beyond the arc. Xavier's guards give them better looks. It forces the opposing defense's hand. It is why you see such a huge foul disparity. They have facilitators. We don't. We literally bring the ball up, toss it around, and hope someone (most likely Peak or Pryor) gets open.Today isn't the day to make this argument, the team had 22 assists on 28 made fg's.. |
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AltoSaxa
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,130
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Post by AltoSaxa on Jan 22, 2017 21:01:04 GMT -5
Another excellent pov from the OP of the above piece:
"In this piece I am not suggesting that Georgetown is DePaul, nor that JT3 is Joey Meyer - YET My fear, though, is that we are headed in that direction at an increasing speed, and that if we don’t do something soon (bring in a new coach) the program may have been done irreversible damage. The trend is very definitely not our friend, and it feels like the clock is ticking. As for the argument that we might be even worse off without JT3, sure anything is possible. But that seems like an awful reason to do nothing. Let me ask this, if JT3 were a money manager who had badly underperformed the market indices in 3 of the last 4 years, and, in fact, had LOST you money in aggregate over the 4 years (i.e., losing New Big East record) while the market had rallied considerably over that time, would you keep your money with him going forward? And let’s say that the performance is just getting worse with time: That the money manager’s investment record has gotten far worse over the most recent 2 years, and that he has lost you considerable money during that time while the market (i.e., the New Big East conference as a whole) has soared. Would you still keep your money with him? Oh, and what if, on top of this unacceptable, and worsening, performance his fees were in the highest decile for the industry? And what if he couldn’t cogently explain why he is losing you money, and won’t accept the blame for having lost you money? I don’t care how nice he is, how many good bottles of wine he has sent you, and how many sporting events he has taken you to, there is no way that a reasonable person would keep their money with this guy. What they would do is learn from the experience, and do thorough due diligence to find a new money manager who is much more in synch with the markets, who has performed well lately, and who is a better choice to help you reach your financial objectives. Similarly, if Georgetown does the right due diligence in hiring a new coach – one who is more in synch with today’s game and has done well lately – we stand a much better chance of meeting our program’s objectives than we do staying with the status quo. Also, the contention that at Georgetown it’s more than just about wins and losses is fair, and admirable. No one is suggesting that we should start to operate like an SEC school. But there are plenty of good coaches who turn out winning teams and winning people. There seems to be a suggestion that JT3 does it "the right way", so should get leniency for his poor performance. There is a suggestion that JT3 runs a "better" program than our peers, so he deserves a pass. The best quantitative way to measure this is through a program’s APR scores. Based on the latest scores released by the NCAA after last season, Georgetown’s men’s basketball program was tied with St. John’s for the second WORST APR score of all Big East School. Notably, only DePaul’s was worse. All of the team’s that have performed far better than us on the court since the New Big East began have also performed far better than us off of the court as well – as judged by this measure. And this is a score calculated on a rolling 4-year basis, so this can’t be explained away as a one year blip. And the men’s basketball program has done far worse by this metric than has any of the other Georgetown athletic programs that received scores. Qualitatively, we’ve certainly had our fair share of transfers during JT3’s tenure, have taken guys with attitude concerns (i.e., Josh Smith – who did not graduate), and are now taking Juco Transfers and 1-year Grad Transfers. And I’m in favor of all of this – I think that it improves the chances that the team will do better, and is consistent with what most other schools do. But it rebuts the argument that JT3 somehow does things differently, better than his peers, off the court. And yes, I’ve met a lot of the players over the years and have been impressed. While I take pride in that, it’s certainly not unique to JT3 or Georgetown. From a recruiting standpoint JT3 isn’t doing anything differently from the coaches at our peer schools. And, per the APR scores, off the court he’s running a program that over an extended period has underperformed our peers. So the fact that this is more than just about wins and losses at Georgetown does not at all, as far as I’m concerned, detract from the argument that we need a new coach. Posted by Yayaowinje on Jan 19, 2017 | 6:05 PM" Wait RockHoya will tell you he's not your money manager so you can't fire him |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 22, 2017 21:01:38 GMT -5
Eagle, we all understand your position at this point. It's been posted in multiple threads, nearly countless times and your points have been made. And you make some good ones. You also continue to make some that are off-base. You're attacking a poster for linking information about a not so different situation in which he didn't even recommend against the change that you so badly want. He only provided some context. If you're going to continue to make nearly the same post in every thread, please don't make it worse by taking shots at people that are adding new information. Maybe they didn't intend scare tactics as DePaul is sounding good about now. They seem to be playing with some intensity and are ahead of the Hoyas in the standings. One thing I'm missing that you seem to be picking up on is fear. I just don't see much of that here. I see a lot of pessimism and lack of belief that the administration will make a change for various reasons. But I don't see much fear of a change. Maybe I'm just projecting my own view of the situation and reading the posts through my own lens. I see a healthy dose of skepticism with regard to a change leading to quick, positive results but I'm not sure that that's the same thing. I also see a bit of defending JT3 in terms of his overall record and his character/coaching but I'm not seeing many (if any) saying sticking with JT3 is definitely the right move. |
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AltoSaxa
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,130
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Post by AltoSaxa on Jan 22, 2017 21:02:45 GMT -5
Please see hoyasaxa2003 and hoyalove4ever
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eagle54
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Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 22, 2017 21:09:06 GMT -5
Maybe they didn't intend scare tactics as DePaul is sounding good about now. They seem to be playing with some intensity and are ahead of the Hoyas in the standings. One thing I'm missing that you seem to be picking up on is fear. I just don't see much of that here. I see a lot of pessimism and lack of belief that the administration will make a change for various reasons. But I don't see much fear of a change. Maybe I'm just projecting my own view of the situation and reading the posts through my own lens. I see a healthy dose of skepticism with regard to a change leading to quick, positive results but I'm not sure that that's the same thing. I also see a bit of defending JT3 in terms of his overall record and his character/coaching but I'm not seeing many (if any) saying sticking with JT3 is definitely the right move. TAS, look closely. The whole DePaul argument is built on fear that you'll head into a 30+ year spiral into basketball hell by upsetting the family. That's the root of it. I'm not saying we will nail our next hire but I do think we should go about it with a rationale approach with a new coach who gets a three year contract to show he's moving things in the right direction and then we'd reassess the situation to see if we want to extend. If it's not working we try again until we get it right. This continued hope that all of the sudden something here will change or that we'll become the worst CBB team in the country by changing coaches is getting old. |
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This Just In
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Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,596
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Post by This Just In on Jan 22, 2017 21:46:15 GMT -5
Eagle, I do think you are pretty insightful on issue spotting, but I don't see how you can continue to say that this team would be a lot better with a different coach. We don't get easy looks because we don't have a PG that can set-up or initiate the offense. College Bball is won at the PG positon nowadays. Without one, it really doesn't matter how much front court talent you have as you won't be able to exploit that advantage by getting easy looks. I'm starting to watch without emotion and more with an analytical eye to try and see how this team can be developed. This season, it can't be. Too much inconsistency from game to game by the individual players. I hear you, I'm not defending the roster construct but I don't believe the talent argument is as bad as it is made to be. Also, becomes an excuse for what is happening though we all know who is responsible for the roster. I'm just saying there is talent here and a good coach would be able to create some mismatches, maximize what is here and better hide some of the deficiencies. Doesn't make it a total fix but I think our record is worse than what the actual talent is. College basketball is also about game management. It takes talent and coaching to make the NCAA's JTIII is looking at missing the NIT's for the 2nd year in a row. Right now the program is at the DePaul and St. John's level. If you are a BE team on a losing streak, no fear, the Hoyas are your "Get Right" game |
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 22, 2017 21:52:51 GMT -5
The reading comprehension on HoyaTalk is lacking. There is no fear here. I am not "afraid" of change. I very much care about the Georgetown basketball program, but it's just that - it's a basketball program that (hopefully) gives all of us enjoyment, but while Georgetown basketball is successful or not is meaningful to me personally, there are a lot of other things out there that are way more important. There are plenty of things to be fearful of in the world today, but coaching changes are not among them.
The real issue is whether it makes sense. The whole basis for my support of the coach is that he has been successful - even very successful - in the past. I agree that with each year of subpar performance, that argument becomes less meaningful. But some, like eagle54 were ready to run John Thompson III out of dodge after 2013, when we might have had March failures, but otherwise we were a hugely successful program.
The JT3 performance from 2004-2013 was very high level - not the best, and the March failures were certainly nothing to be happy about - but there were only a handful of coaches whose performance in that time period was better than JT3's. Now, obviously, since then things have gotten worse. 2014, 2016, and now 2017 are pretty bad. That's not a good trend, which I acknowledge.
The bigger picture question is, can JT3 get us back to where we were, or do we stand a better chance with someone else? Some, like eagle54, made that decision in 2013. Others, like me, understand that finding a high quality basketball coach is an incredibly difficult thing to do, so when you have someone who has had success like JT3, it should not be an easy decision to dismiss them. I can respect that some people would want to make a move more quickly than others, but to act like anybody who differs is an apologist or "fearful" is just plain silly.
There is no "DePaul" argument. I am not saying we are going to turn into DePaul and be awful for over a decade, though to act like that's impossible is to ignore reality. Rather, all I did was put facts out there - DePaul fired the son of a well regarded coach and has been searching for a replacement to revitalize the school for well over a decade. They hired flashy assistants. They hired mid-major and high-major coaches with some success, and they all failed. And then they inexplicably hired one of those failures to come back and try again. So basically, DePaul did everything many people here want to do and it didn't work.
Now, as I've said before, that does not mean that there should never be a coaching change. Nobody is saying that "we'll become the worst CBB team in the country by changing coaches." Nobody on here is saying that. That's ridiculous hyperbole meant to incite. And it does not mean I would never support change. But, it should be sobering and demonstrate that the university has to be careful about the moves that are made, and it's highly unwise to make hasty decisions or to dismiss someone that could possibly be better than anybody else you'd hire - and that's totally not even factoring in things like the connection of the Thompson family to the university, alumni, and other factors.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 22, 2017 22:09:13 GMT -5
The reading comprehension on HoyaTalk is lacking. There is no fear here. I am not "afraid" of change. I very much care about the Georgetown basketball program, but it's just that - it's a basketball program that (hopefully) gives all of us enjoyment, but while Georgetown basketball is successful or not is meaningful to me personally, there are a lot of other things out there that are way more important. There are plenty of things to be fearful of in the world today, but coaching changes are not among them. The real issue is whether it makes sense. The whole basis for my support of the coach is that he has been successful - even very successful - in the past. I agree that with each year of subpar performance, that argument becomes less meaningful. But some, like eagle54 were ready to run John Thompson III out of dodge after 2013, when we might have had March failures, but otherwise we were a hugely successful program. The JT3 performance from 2004-2013 was very high level - not the best, and the March failures were certainly nothing to be happy about - but there were only a handful of coaches whose performance in that time period was better than JT3's. Now, obviously, since then things have gotten worse. 2014, 2016, and now 2017 are pretty bad. That's not a good trend, which I acknowledge. The bigger picture question is, can JT3 get us back to where we were, or do we stand a better chance with someone else? Some, like eagle54, made that decision in 2013. Others, like me, understand that finding a high quality basketball coach is an incredibly difficult thing to do, so when you have someone who has had success like JT3, it should not be an easy decision to dismiss them. I can respect that some people would want to make a move more quickly than others, but to act like anybody who differs is an apologist or "fearful" is just plain silly. There is no "DePaul" argument. I am not saying we are going to turn into DePaul and be awful for over a decade, though to act like that's impossible is to ignore reality. Rather, all I did was put facts out there - DePaul fired the son of a well regarded coach and has been searching for a replacement to revitalize the school for well over a decade. They hired flashy assistants. They hired mid-major and high-major coaches with some success, and they all failed. And then they inexplicably hired one of those failures to come back and try again. So basically, DePaul did everything many people here want to do and it didn't work. Now, as I've said before, that does not mean that there should never be a coaching change. Nobody is saying that "we'll become the worst CBB team in the country by changing coaches." Nobody on here is saying that. That's ridiculous hyperbole meant to incite. And it does not mean I would never support change. But, it should be sobering and demonstrate that the university has to be careful about the moves that are made, and it's highly unwise to make hasty decisions or to dismiss someone that could possibly be better than anybody else you'd hire - and that's totally not even factoring in things like the connection of the Thompson family to the university, alumni, and other factors. First, just imagine if we had gotten it right after the 2013 complete meltdown (and let's be clear - that was not the first but the one that put the nail in the coffin of this current regime). We've never been the same team since and are still searching as we reach new lows. Second, the DePaul argument is exactly as I said. It's a fear argument that if you change what we have we will become DePaul because of this father-son coaching parallel. Let's not try to hide that. I think we all know what it is posters are alluding to. The only reason we'd fail in a succession plan is our own administration which doesn't seem built to manage a high profile division I men's basketball program but that's another topic. Third, the performances of our team since 2007 have been failures. The argument that you have a good regular season and fail in the post season when the season matters is not success. It's not a success in any major sport and shouldn't be in this. We can forgive one or two of those performances but year after year is no longer forgivable. But to make matters worse, we don't even have successful regular seasons anymore we are just bad all of the time. And this is in a now much weaker conference than we formally competed in. Finally, how is this going to get better next year? A PG that we are hanging our new hat on? Didn't we hear after last season's flame out that with our adds this offseason all would be great again. There comes a time when something has run its course. Time to see that and make the necessary changes to address it. It's nothing against anyone involved personally just the nature of big time sports. |
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by tashoya on Jan 22, 2017 22:37:01 GMT -5
One thing I'm missing that you seem to be picking up on is fear. I just don't see much of that here. I see a lot of pessimism and lack of belief that the administration will make a change for various reasons. But I don't see much fear of a change. Maybe I'm just projecting my own view of the situation and reading the posts through my own lens. I see a healthy dose of skepticism with regard to a change leading to quick, positive results but I'm not sure that that's the same thing. I also see a bit of defending JT3 in terms of his overall record and his character/coaching but I'm not seeing many (if any) saying sticking with JT3 is definitely the right move. TAS, look closely. The whole DePaul argument is built on fear that you'll head into a 30+ year spiral into basketball hell by upsetting the family. That's the root of it. I'm not saying we will nail our next hire but I do think we should go about it with a rationale approach with a new coach who gets a three year contract to show he's moving things in the right direction and then we'd reassess the situation to see if we want to extend. If it's not working we try again until we get it right. This continued hope that all of the sudden something here will change or that we'll become the worst CBB team in the country by changing coaches is getting old. I didn't see that post as anything other than a post about what happened with DePaul. Not a suggestion that that's what would happen at Georgetown. More a look into a worst case scenario that, while a possibility for us, is by no means a certainty or even a likelihood for Georgetown. Similarly, with regard to the "hope" that things will magically turn around next year without some dramatic changes (huge jumps by guys already here/guys staying/Waters) just because it's a different year, I'm not really seeing much of that either. |
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 22, 2017 22:47:50 GMT -5
TAS, look closely. The whole DePaul argument is built on fear that you'll head into a 30+ year spiral into basketball hell by upsetting the family. That's the root of it. I'm not saying we will nail our next hire but I do think we should go about it with a rationale approach with a new coach who gets a three year contract to show he's moving things in the right direction and then we'd reassess the situation to see if we want to extend. If it's not working we try again until we get it right. This continued hope that all of the sudden something here will change or that we'll become the worst CBB team in the country by changing coaches is getting old. I didn't see that post as anything other than a post about what happened with DePaul. Not a suggestion that that's what would happen at Georgetown. More a look into a worst case scenario that, while a possibility for us, is by no means a certainty or even a likelihood for Georgetown. Similarly, with regard to the "hope" that things will magically turn around next year without some dramatic changes (huge jumps by guys already here/guys staying/Waters) just because it's a different year, I'm not really seeing much of that either. Stop with the act. Casual Hoya had an article on the subject and we've had posters that gave that person the idea to write it. We've had the posts for some time about things like "it could get much worse if we change coaches, we could become DePaul" and all of that is rooted in the coaching parallel of a father and son combo. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 22, 2017 22:51:46 GMT -5
I didn't see that post as anything other than a post about what happened with DePaul. Not a suggestion that that's what would happen at Georgetown. More a look into a worst case scenario that, while a possibility for us, is by no means a certainty or even a likelihood for Georgetown. Similarly, with regard to the "hope" that things will magically turn around next year without some dramatic changes (huge jumps by guys already here/guys staying/Waters) just because it's a different year, I'm not really seeing much of that either. Stop with the act. Casual Hoya had an article on the subject and we've had posters that gave that person the idea to write it. We've had the posts for some time about things like "it could get much worse if we change coaches, we could become DePaul" and all of that is rooted in the coaching parallel of a father and son combo. I don't know what act you're talking about and I didn't read the Casual article. In point of fact, it could be worse but, the posts to which you're referring don't put the "if we change coaches" part that you add. They posit that the current situation could be worse and it could be. DePaul can attest to that. I haven't seen any but I'll say that almost no one is saying we shouldn't make a coaching change because we'll end up on the DePaul path. I've seen it said that it's a possibility and it is. To not recognize that seems stubborn at best and stupid at worst. Please do point me to posts that say that if JT3 were to be let go, we'd end up being the next DePaul or that assume that that's the most likely possibility. |
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 22, 2017 23:05:00 GMT -5
Stop with the act. Casual Hoya had an article on the subject and we've had posters that gave that person the idea to write it. We've had the posts for some time about things like "it could get much worse if we change coaches, we could become DePaul" and all of that is rooted in the coaching parallel of a father and son combo. I don't know what act you're talking about and I didn't read the Casual article. In point of fact, it could be worse but, the posts to which you're referring don't put the "if we change coaches" part that you add. They posit that the current situation could be worse and it could be. DePaul can attest to that. I haven't seen any but I'll say that almost no one is saying we shouldn't make a coaching change because we'll end up on the DePaul path. I've seen it said that it's a possibility and it is. To not recognize that seems stubborn at best and stupid at worst. Please do point me to posts that say that if JT3 were to be let go, we'd end up being the next DePaul or that assume that that's the most likely possibility. If you aren't going to pay attention I'm not going to debate it with you. The people on this board know what is going on whether you do or not. But just for your reading pleasure (from recent posts, however this has been a theme since last year but has ramped up): hoyatalk2.proboards.com/post/712901hoyatalk2.proboards.com/post/712604hoyatalk2.proboards.com/post/712375hoyatalk2.proboards.com/post/712027 |
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 23, 2017 0:42:19 GMT -5
You shouldn't criticize tashoya for not paying attention when your own post cites to four posts (2 of mine) and none of them say what you claim they say. The first post of mine simply states DePaul's history. In fact I wrote in the very article you posted: And in my second post you quoted, I wrote: So, I was specifically saying we are NOT at DePaul's level. And I don't necessarily think will end up there if there's a coaching change (and I certainly hope not) - but it's a possibility. Really, my only point is that it's helpful to approach the issue with prudence, so that you don't make a silly mistake. In my mind, for example, firing JT3 after 2013 would have been silly and ridiculous. But, you've made up your mind and I am not going to bother wasting time on that part. But please, stop misrepresenting what I and others are saying. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 23, 2017 8:19:34 GMT -5
You shouldn't criticize tashoya for not paying attention when your own post cites to four posts (2 of mine) and none of them say what you claim they say. The first post of mine simply states DePaul's history. In fact I wrote in the very article you posted: And in my second post you quoted, I wrote: So, I was specifically saying we are NOT at DePaul's level. And I don't necessarily think will end up there if there's a coaching change (and I certainly hope not) - but it's a possibility. Really, my only point is that it's helpful to approach the issue with prudence, so that you don't make a silly mistake. In my mind, for example, firing JT3 after 2013 would have been silly and ridiculous. But, you've made up your mind and I am not going to bother wasting time on that part. But please, stop misrepresenting what I and others are saying. Turns out, I was paying attention. I thought I wasn't following as closely as some others. Eagle, the problem in this case is your reading comprehension. Reread your own links. They aren't saying what you think/assert they are. Hoyasaxa2003, your point came across clearly to me the first time and it was equally as clear upon another reading. |
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