beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Jan 19, 2017 8:31:32 GMT -5
Alot of you are giving up on JTIII, just like you gave Otto Porter up for dead when you left Otto by the side of the road during that snow storm. But Porter's back with a vengeance now and taking names. Otto is doing great. JTIII is NOT. |
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Post by jld54 on Jan 19, 2017 8:40:06 GMT -5
I agree with the posters who state that JT3 is not going anywhere unless/until: (1) his current contract expires or (2) there is a truly mutual agreement between the Thompsons (JT2 included) and the administration. GU owes its prominence in basketball to JT2, and simply will not pressure his son to leave or fire him absent a true scandal. The current state of affairs is very poor, but is not enough to overcome the above factors.
I have written off this year and look forward to a different roster next year. The reality is that this year's roster has three failed recruiting classes and one with an incomplete grade. The current senior class consisted only of Reggie, who is not in the rotation. The junior class has seen White and Copeland leave, Campbell playing to his anticipated role as a back up, and only Peak developing up to expectations. Mourning was not a highly rated player and a legacy guy. The current freshman class consisted of a top 150 guard in Moseley who is playing at this level, and no one else. The current soph class was a solid class and is playing to expectations, in general.
So we have a woefully undermanned senior and frosh class, a failed junior class, and a decent soph class. We had to plug in Agau -- a chronically injured guy -- and two guard transfers to plug the holes caused by these recruiting deficits, especially at the guard slot. So the level of performance the past two years in understandable -- not pleasant but understandable.
Botton line: we will lose Cameron, Hayes and Pryor -- hopefully not LJ -- and replace them with a super PG recruit that we have lacked for a decade --, and a solid player in Walker. This is a good start but we need to put together a string of solid classes if we are ever to get back to a good level.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 19, 2017 9:06:20 GMT -5
Of course he is not Joey Meyer; for that matter, he is not Murry Bartow, Sean Sutton, Pat Knight, Richard Pitino, et al. The torches and pitchforks crowd that use a free podium at SB Nation to sell worse-case scenarios are not dealing with what it will take to build up not just basketball but the overall athletic program going forward. It's not just about coaches, but process and direction. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was McDonough. I dispute this revisionist history that JT III was chosen because of his name. The list of 2004 candidates (Joe Scott, Willis Wilson, etc.) was not strong enough that they would have overtaken what JT III did at Princeton. Let's not go down that road again...much less the conspiracy theory that this is all some sort of nefarious plan to drive Georgetown into the Patriot League, which was actually floated on this board circa 2004. On a different topic, Big East tickets go on sale today. I'm in. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 19, 2017 9:25:57 GMT -5
I admit to being not terribly familiar with Meyer's situation above the basics, but somehow it's supposed to be an argument for change that DePaul fired Meyer and has been mostly putrid since? |
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the_way
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The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 9:46:21 GMT -5
I agree with the posters who state that JT3 is not going anywhere unless/until: (1) his current contract expires or (2) there is a truly mutual agreement between the Thompsons (JT2 included) and the administration. GU owes its prominence in basketball to JT2, and simply will not pressure his son to leave or fire him absent a true scandal. The current state of affairs is very poor, but is not enough to overcome the above factors. I have written off this year and look forward to a different roster next year. The reality is that this year's roster has three failed recruiting classes and one with an incomplete grade. The current senior class consisted only of Reggie, who is not in the rotation. The junior class has seen White and Copeland leave, Campbell playing to his anticipated role as a back up, and only Peak developing up to expectations. Mourning was not a highly rated player and a legacy guy. The current freshman class consisted of a top 150 guard in Moseley who is playing at this level, and no one else. The current soph class was a solid class and is playing to expectations, in general. So we have a woefully undermanned senior and frosh class, a failed junior class, and a decent soph class. We had to plug in Agau -- a chronically injured guy -- and two guard transfers to plug the holes caused by these recruiting deficits, especially at the guard slot. So the level of performance the past two years in understandable -- not pleasant but understandable. Botton line: we will lose Cameron, Hayes and Pryor -- hopefully not LJ -- and replace them with a super PG recruit that we have lacked for a decade --, and a solid player in Walker. This is a good start but we need to put together a string of solid classes if we are ever to get back to a good level. Excellent points. |
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 19, 2017 9:56:11 GMT -5
I admit to being not terribly familiar with Meyer's situation above the basics, but somehow it's supposed to be an argument for change that DePaul fired Meyer and has been mostly putrid since? Do we know how much DePaul's coach is paid?  |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 19, 2017 10:26:20 GMT -5
Do we know how much DePaul's coach is paid? His predecessor was the third highest paid coach in the league at $2,273,475 in 2013. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 21, 2017 22:47:15 GMT -5
On the issue of Joey Meyer, I actually think it's pretty instructive. In a lot of ways, DePaul did exactly what our fans want Georgetown to do - fire their coach and hire a high flying assistant or good mid major coach. Obviously, that has not worked out well for them.
As for Meyer, he made the tournament 7 of 8 times, and then had three consecutive poor seasons before being fired. This is JT3's second consecutive poor season.
So let's review their hires after Meyer:
Pat Kennedy: Kennedy had some success at both Iona (two NCAA appearances) and Florida State (5 appearances in his first 7 years). Ironically, Kennedy actually had 4 very bad seasons to end his Florida State stint, then DePaul hired him.
At DePaul, he made the tournament once, and then was horrible. But again, an example of a pretty accomplished coach who fizzled once at DePaul.
Dave Leitao (part 1): After Kennedy came Leitao. Unlike Kennedy, he had little head coaching experience, but he was a longtime assistant for Connecticut under Calhoun. He only stayed at DePaul three years, made the NCAA's once, then left for Virginia where he made one NCAA tournament before being an abysmal failure.
Jerry Wainright: Wainwright started with some success at a mid-major - UNC Wilmington, making the NCAA's twice, and also finishing first in the CAA two years. Then he had some success in Richmond (one NCAA appearance), then went to DePaul, where he was an disaster, except for one winning season.
Oliver Purnell: A classic mid-major / low high major coach who had some success at Old Dominion, Dayton, and Clemson. As we all know, he was a highly paid coach at DePaul and he never won more than six conference games.
Now, would Georgetown have such a poor record if they hired a new coach? There's really no way to know, but DePaul has pretty much tried hiring every coach from the type of pool we would be hiring from, and none of them have been successful. Mid-major successes (Kennedy/Wainright) and high flying assistants (Leitao), plus they threw a ton of money at a successful high-major coach (Purnell), and none of it worked.
So, when people ask, "Can it really get worse?" the answer is absolutely yes. Would they have been better off with Meyer? Of course, there's no way to know the answer to that question, but it just demonstrates that making a change (multiple changes) is something which carries risk. And, it also shows that tossing a ton of money at someone (Purnell) is basically meaningless - it might get someone with a fairly decent record but it doesn't guarantee that will continue in any way.
Again, I am not saying this means Georgetown should never make a move, I just think you need to be really careful about making moves when you have a coach who has had success. Finding another one is never a guarantee. And for those who have said, "Well, you just try again if it doesn't work out," DePaul has been trying again for well over a decade.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 21, 2017 23:15:03 GMT -5
On the issue of Joey Meyer, I actually think it's pretty instructive. In a lot of ways, DePaul did exactly what our fans want Georgetown to do - fire their coach and hire a high flying assistant or good mid major coach. Obviously, that has not worked out well for them. As for Meyer, he made the tournament 7 of 8 times, and then had three consecutive poor seasons before being fired. This is JT3's second consecutive poor season. So let's review their hires after Meyer: Pat Kennedy: Kennedy had some success at both Iona (two NCAA appearances) and Florida State (5 appearances in his first 7 years). Ironically, Kennedy actually had 4 very bad seasons to end his Florida State stint, then DePaul hired him. At DePaul, he made the tournament once, and then was horrible. But again, an example of a pretty accomplished coach who fizzled once at DePaul. Dave Leitao (part 1): After Kennedy came Leitao. Unlike Kennedy, he had little head coaching experience, but he was a longtime assistant for Connecticut under Calhoun. He only stayed at DePaul three years, made the NCAA's once, then left for Virginia where he made one NCAA tournament before being an abysmal failure. Jerry Wainright: Wainwright started with some success at a mid-major - UNC Wilmington, making the NCAA's twice, and also finishing first in the CAA two years. Then he had some success in Richmond (one NCAA appearance), then went to DePaul, where he was an disaster, except for one winning season. Oliver Purnell: A classic mid-major / low high major coach who had some success at Old Dominion, Dayton, and Clemson. As we all know, he was a highly paid coach at DePaul and he never won more than six conference games. Now, would Georgetown have such a poor record if they hired a new coach? There's really no way to know, but DePaul has pretty much tried hiring every coach from the type of pool we would be hiring from, and none of them have been successful. Mid-major successes (Kennedy/Wainright) and high flying assistants (Leitao), plus they threw a ton of money at a successful high-major coach (Purnell), and none of it worked. So, when people ask, "Can it really get worse?" the answer is absolutely yes. Would they have been better off with Meyer? Of course, there's no way to know the answer to that question, but it just demonstrates that making a change (multiple changes) is something which carries risk. And, it also shows that tossing a ton of money at someone (Purnell) is basically meaningless - it might get someone with a fairly decent record but it doesn't guarantee that will continue in any way. Again, I am not saying this means Georgetown should never make a move, I just think you need to be really careful about making moves when you have a coach who has had success. Finding another one is never a guarantee. And for those who have said, "Well, you just try again if it doesn't work out," DePaul has been trying again for well over a decade. "CHICAGO, Jan. 6 -- The Coach will be a no-show Saturday when DePaul University inducts its 1978-79 men's Final Four basketball team into the school's athletic hall of fame. Ray Meyer, who built the DePaul program into a national power during his 42 years as head coach at the school told the Chicago Tribune that he would feel uncomfortable coming back to the school. 'It's just too hard for me at this time,' Meyer told the Tribune. 'I know it's (strange) that I won't be there, but that's only one night of my life. I have to live my whole life too. There's no animosity anymore. It would be uncomfortable for me. I wouldn't be at home. I wouldn't be myself. So I don't think I want to subject myself to that.' Meyer, who turned 85 on Dec. 18, remains bitter about the dismissal of his son Joey, his successor, in April 1997. Soon after his son was fired, Meyer moved out of an office he used at Alumni Hall for his roles as a school fundraiser and ambassador. Meyer retired following the 1983-84 season after compiling 724 wins, the sixth-highest total in college basketball history. Joey Meyer replaced his father and guided the Blue Demons to the NCAA tournament in each of his first eight seasons but beginning in 1992-93, the team failed to reach the Big Dance. After the team posted a 17-11 record in 1994-95, 11-18 and 3-23 seasons followed leading to Joey Meyer's dismissal. The firing was the final salvo in a long feud between the Meyers and DePaul Athletic Director Bill Bradshaw. The 1978-79 Blue Demons were led by freshman forward Mark Aguirre, senior forward Curtis Watkins and senior guard Gary Garland. They compiled a 26-6 record, advancing to the Final Four with tournament victories over USC, Marquette and UCLA." www.upi.com/Archives/1999/01/06/Meyer-to-snub-DePaul-ceremony/4619915598800/ |
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 21, 2017 23:29:36 GMT -5
More of the same scaring tactics I see from two of our board's brighter minds? Do you really believe this stuff. We'll be forever cursed by the Thompson's due to their own under performance because of some loose comparison to DePaul? Remember Esh was also a gift from JTII. Time to stand on our own and pretend we have an ounce of confidence to compete with a new leader.
Future here is bleak as you have a coach who doesn't know how to recruit for what he's coaching. I'm not sure he even knows what he is coaching anymore.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 22, 2017 2:32:29 GMT -5
More of the same scaring tactics I see from two of our board's brighter minds? Do you really believe this stuff. We'll be forever cursed by the Thompson's due to their own under performance because of some loose comparison to DePaul? Remember Esh was also a gift from JTII. Time to stand on our own and pretend we have an ounce of confidence to compete with a new leader. Future here is bleak as you have a coach who doesn't know how to recruit for what he's coaching. I'm not sure he even knows what he is coaching anymore. It's not scare tactics. You may consider this pessimistic but it's unrealistic to think that if we get a new coach that suddenly things will be better. It might get better but there's a good chance that it wouldn't either. That's the only point of my post - an acknowledgement with an example that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Clearly you think that things are so bad that change is needed immediately, so nothing you say is surprising at this point. |
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 22, 2017 9:21:03 GMT -5
I have no expectation that JT III will be fired. Yes, it can get worse if he is fired as pointed out above and this must be recognized by the Administration, but not as a deterrent--rather as a reality of the risks in making a change and the need to proceed with a thorough evaluation of the coach, the program and potential replacements. Do I think that he deserves more time--I did but am not certain any more. I keep waiting and hoping for some sign that it has turned around. So far , it only gets worse.
Basketball is a big business for schools--unlike even when Meyer was fired at Depaul. Georgetown invests millions and uses the basketball program as a marketing tool and as a means of offsetting other expenses. When alumni are contacted for money, including the new athletic center, we are told of the glorious history of the basketball program and the need to make investments to continue this tradition. That tradition includes the right values for marrying athletics to academics, but it always comes back to success on the court. JT III is paid a tremendous amount of money to be the CEO of this program. He should be judged as any other CEO who is running a multi-million dollar enterprise. It's nice to discuss the other aspects of the program, like emphasizing academics and running a clean program. Yet, these pale in importance in the modern game for most Division I schools, as we see coaches everywhere who cheat and suffer little consequence. We see star athletes who show up at the school as students, but rarely show-up in the classroom.
Georgetown has bought into this new world of college basketball, as well, though perhaps not to the degree of other institutions that do not value the mission of educating the student athlete. To the credit of the school, when athletes who are clearly not honoring their academic obligations fail, they have been suspended, rather than taking the North Carolina route and placed in make-believe courses. Still this does not change the fact that the Hoyas recruit one and dones, two and dones and transfers. JT III recognizes the need to have a successful program. He has changed his system to be more appealing to the young recruits. He has recruited kids with major question marks about their commitment to school, and he has changed assistants. Give him an "A+" for effort. Unfortunately, the results have not matched the effort and in the world of business, it is the results that count the most.
I worry that too much of the discussion of JT III is really a discussion about the his father. Big John was a controversial lightning rod--a catalyst for change and a social force who helped alter the landscape of college basketball in particular, while alienating many in the establishment. That is his legacy--not the legacy of his son. His son has rightly attempted to perpetuate many of those goals and deserves credit for that effort. But the ability to run a program the right way is not restricted by genetics or lineage. Others can accomplish the same objectives. At the end of this season the school must not be constrained by the fear of breaking with the past or the possibility of even worse failures in the future. The school needs to do its best to view this coach apart from his father and try to make the decision as to what is the best for all concerned. I would be shocked if JT III wanted it any other way.
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Post by reformation on Jan 22, 2017 9:39:48 GMT -5
There is potentially a diff between replacing JTII and firing him I think the only way a change s accomplished is some sort of mutual agreement to move JTII to AD or some other position. Whether you think its a good move or not to move on from JTII its certainly a courageous move: one I can't imagine the gtown admin make in any other than a mutually agreeable way. That's just not the way gtown as an institution seems to work, bold or courageous moves are not part of the institutions or the top leaders DNA.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jan 22, 2017 12:13:45 GMT -5
More of the same scaring tactics I see from two of our board's brighter minds? Do you really believe this stuff. We'll be forever cursed by the Thompson's due to their own under performance because of some loose comparison to DePaul? Remember Esh was also a gift from JTII. Time to stand on our own and pretend we have an ounce of confidence to compete with a new leader. Future here is bleak as you have a coach who doesn't know how to recruit for what he's coaching. I'm not sure he even knows what he is coaching anymore. Eagle, we all understand your position at this point. It's been posted in multiple threads, nearly countless times and your points have been made. And you make some good ones. You also continue to make some that are off-base. You're attacking a poster for linking information about a not so different situation in which he didn't even recommend against the change that you so badly want. He only provided some context. If you're going to continue to make nearly the same post in every thread, please don't make it worse by taking shots at people that are adding new information. |
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Post by riley32ps on Jan 22, 2017 16:51:45 GMT -5
Strategy ahold shift to include heavy development of guys who need to be part of the program in the future. Wisconsin, Butler, etc do a great job of developing players who aren't 'stars'. You take some lumps but this season is down to win the BE tourney to make the NCAA tourney and it's a real long shot. Get increased time for Mourning and Johnson. If they can get time for Muresan's kid (unless he is going to redshirt) consider that too. Get MD to develop a post game. Get him at least 4 or 5 touches in the post to get him experience. There should be other stated objectives but they should avoid win at all costs this season. This is a case where a 3 win season offers bigger long term dividends than say a 5 win season.
It also changes focus for JTIII to development and getting set for a stronger foundation when TW arrives.
Maybe crazy but food for thought
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 22, 2017 17:14:11 GMT -5
More of the same scaring tactics I see from two of our board's brighter minds? Do you really believe this stuff. We'll be forever cursed by the Thompson's due to their own under performance because of some loose comparison to DePaul? Remember Esh was also a gift from JTII. Time to stand on our own and pretend we have an ounce of confidence to compete with a new leader. Future here is bleak as you have a coach who doesn't know how to recruit for what he's coaching. I'm not sure he even knows what he is coaching anymore. Eagle, we all understand your position at this point. It's been posted in multiple threads, nearly countless times and your points have been made. And you make some good ones. You also continue to make some that are off-base. You're attacking a poster for linking information about a not so different situation in which he didn't even recommend against the change that you so badly want. He only provided some context. If you're going to continue to make nearly the same post in every thread, please don't make it worse by taking shots at people that are adding new information. Maybe they didn't intend scare tactics as DePaul is sounding good about now. They seem to be playing with some intensity and are ahead of the Hoyas in the standings. |
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bigskyhoya
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Post by bigskyhoya on Jan 22, 2017 17:22:02 GMT -5
Weren't we a preseason consensus pick for 4th in the BIg East? Were they all wrong about our talent level or could it be something else?
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 22, 2017 17:32:57 GMT -5
Weren't we a preseason consensus pick for 4th in the BIg East? Were they all wrong about our talent level or could it be something else? The talent level is there but you need a coach who can fit the pieces together. Is this an elite bunch, no but it is not the last place team in the BE bad. I would guarantee that you take a better coach in our conference and ask them to switch rosters with ours they would school our coach with his own team. |
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hoyalaw33
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Post by hoyalaw33 on Jan 22, 2017 17:40:30 GMT -5
Eagle, I do think you are pretty insightful on issue spotting, but I don't see how you can continue to say that this team would be a lot better with a different coach. We don't get easy looks because we don't have a PG that can set-up or initiate the offense. College Bball is won at the PG positon nowadays. Without one, it really doesn't matter how much front court talent you have as you won't be able to exploit that advantage by getting easy looks. I'm starting to watch without emotion and more with an analytical eye to try and see how this team can be developed. This season, it can't be. Too much inconsistency from game to game by the individual players.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Jan 22, 2017 17:44:54 GMT -5
Eagle, I do think you are pretty insightful on issue spotting, but I don't see how you can continue to say that this team would be a lot better with a different coach. We don't get easy looks because we don't have a PG that can set-up or initiate the offense. College Bball is won at the PG positon nowadays. Without one, it really doesn't matter how much front court talent you have as you won't be able to exploit that advantage by getting easy looks. I'm starting to watch without emotion and more with an analytical eye to try and see how this team can be developed. This season, it can't be. Too much inconsistency from game to game by the individual players. I hear you, I'm not defending the roster construct but I don't believe the talent argument is as bad as it is made to be. Also, becomes an excuse for what is happening though we all know who is responsible for the roster. I'm just saying there is talent here and a good coach would be able to create some mismatches, maximize what is here and better hide some of the deficiencies. Doesn't make it a total fix but I think our record is worse than what the actual talent is. |
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