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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 8, 2015 11:08:02 GMT -5
There were 140 points scored in the game. The argument is about 2 of the 140. I get it - high road, morality, returning the favor, blah blah blah. JTIII didn't want to return the two points, so be it. Hat tip to Kevin Willard for realizing that those two points that Tyler Adams scored 5 seconds into the game were not going to determine the outcome. The other 138 points and 39:55 of game time determined the outcome. Even if the margin of victory for us had been 2 points, we all know it's not as cut and dry as "well they gave us 2 to start the game so that's why we won".
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Post by JohnnyJones on Mar 8, 2015 11:11:51 GMT -5
Didn't they hit a three after Jabril's dunk? So even if he did sort of pile on an extra two points, SH piled on an extra three. It's not like we succeeded in running up the score. I think it was just Jabril doing something to finish his Verizon career on a memorable note. Do you really mean this or are you just trying to play devil's advocate? I cant believe there is no universal agreement on this. That may have been Jabril's motivation, and it was fun and not that big a deal. But do we not all agree that when a team has a comfortable lead, when the shot clock is off , and when the other team has opted not to continue fouling, that the right thing to do is dribble the clock out? Really, do we not all agree on that? I understand other teams dont always do it, and I fully understand and appreciate that there were other circumstances yesterday (that many have mentioned) that sort of explain what Jabril was thinking. Even if I say it was not "wrong", can we not all agree that it would have been slightly more right to just dribble the clock out? I suspect you were kidding about the Hall's 3. They were losing. I dont believe there are any unwritten rules about the team losing not trying to score in the waning seconds.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 11:15:02 GMT -5
There were 140 points scored in the game. The argument is about 2 of the 140. I get it - high road, morality, returning the favor, blah blah blah. JTIII didn't want to return the two points, so be it. Hat tip to Kevin Willard for realizing that those two points that Tyler Adams scored 5 seconds into the game were not going to determine the outcome. The other 138 points and 39:55 of game time determined the outcome. Even if the margin of victory for us had been 2 points, we all know it's not as cut and dry as "well they gave us 2 to start the game so that's why we won". I don't think anyone is actually arguing those points decided the game.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 8, 2015 11:15:06 GMT -5
Didn't they hit a three after Jabril's dunk? So even if he did sort of pile on an extra two points, SH piled on an extra three. It's not like we succeeded in running up the score. I think it was just Jabril doing something to finish his Verizon career on a memorable note. They threw up a 3/4 court shot at the buzzer. Jabril's dunk made it 9 against a team that had stopped playing defense and was already shaking hands. It's not the same thing. And 99/100 that shot doesnt go in and the team that was forced to throw it up to save face from the preceding play (the dunk) has to walk off the court with their tail between their legs. Jabril had already had a monster game to finish his Verizon career on a memorable note. He coulda just dribbled it out... O for god's sake. Do you want to hand out trophies to all the teams for participation too? Yea he coulda just dribbled it out, and any other game he probably would have. The kid wanted to put an exclamation point on his dynamite senior day game. This is high major college basketball, not CYA league. I would be shocked if any of the Seton Hall players, coaches, or fans begrudged him for that. Also, how often do you ever see the losing team dribble out the clock when they have the ball and the outcome has been determined? Never. They ALWAYS chuck up a prayer no matter the score and Gibbs did just that.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 8, 2015 11:16:07 GMT -5
Didn't they hit a three after Jabril's dunk? So even if he did sort of pile on an extra two points, SH piled on an extra three. It's not like we succeeded in running up the score. I think it was just Jabril doing something to finish his Verizon career on a memorable note. Do you really mean this or are you just trying to play devil's advocate? I cant believe there is no universal agreement on this. That may have been Jabril's motivation, and it was fun and not that big a deal. But do we not all agree that when a team has a comfortable lead, when the shot clock is off , and when the other team has opted not to continue fouling, that the right thing to do is dribble the clock out? Really, do we not all agree on that? I understand other teams dont always do it, and I fully understand and appreciate that there were other circumstances yesterday (that many have mentioned) that sort of explain what Jabril was thinking. Even if I say it was not "wrong", can we not all agree that it would have been slightly more right to just dribble the clock out? I suspect you were kidding about the Hall's 3. They were losing. I dont believe there are any unwritten rules about the team losing not trying to score in the waning seconds. It was senior day, at the end of a close win. That's all. There's nothing more to the story. You and Denny are the only people bothered by this. Give it up. You're wrong.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Mar 8, 2015 11:16:22 GMT -5
Didn't they hit a three after Jabril's dunk? So even if he did sort of pile on an extra two points, SH piled on an extra three. It's not like we succeeded in running up the score. I think it was just Jabril doing something to finish his Verizon career on a memorable note. Do you really mean this or are you just trying to play devil's advocate? I cant believe there is no universal agreement on this. That may have been Jabril's motivation, and it was fun and not that big a deal. But do we not all agree that when a team has a comfortable lead, when the shot clock is off , and when the other team has opted not to continue fouling, that the right thing to do is dribble the clock out? Really, do we not all agree on that? I understand other teams dont always do it, and I fully understand and appreciate that there were other circumstances yesterday (that many have mentioned) that sort of explain what Jabril was thinking. Even if I say it was not "wrong", can we not all agree that it would have been slightly more right to just dribble the clock out? I suspect you were kidding about the Hall's 3. They were losing. I dont believe there are any unwritten rules about the team losing not trying to score in the waning seconds. No we all don't agree on that. I have no problem with what Jabril did.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 8, 2015 11:18:26 GMT -5
Okay, I'm officially willing to accept discussion of Bradley Hayes playing time if it means we stop whatever this is. People in the press are asking questions about this. It was a bad look for the school whatever the intentions or miscommunications. Nobody in the press has ever asked about Bradley Hayes No, you and the NJ writer are the only people "asking questions." ALL of the other media are focusing on the real story - Tyler Adams. Just admit you're wrong and stop grinding your axe.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Mar 8, 2015 11:19:25 GMT -5
Do you really mean this or are you just trying to play devil's advocate? I cant believe there is no universal agreement on this. That may have been Jabril's motivation, and it was fun and not that big a deal. But do we not all agree that when a team has a comfortable lead, when the shot clock is off , and when the other team has opted not to continue fouling, that the right thing to do is dribble the clock out? Really, do we not all agree on that? I understand other teams dont always do it, and I fully understand and appreciate that there were other circumstances yesterday (that many have mentioned) that sort of explain what Jabril was thinking. Even if I say it was not "wrong", can we not all agree that it would have been slightly more right to just dribble the clock out? I suspect you were kidding about the Hall's 3. They were losing. I dont believe there are any unwritten rules about the team losing not trying to score in the waning seconds. No we all don't agree on that. I have no problem with what Jabril did. Fair enough. I thought everyone agreed that was the right thing to do but I was wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 11:21:09 GMT -5
They threw up a 3/4 court shot at the buzzer. Jabril's dunk made it 9 against a team that had stopped playing defense and was already shaking hands. It's not the same thing. And 99/100 that shot doesnt go in and the team that was forced to throw it up to save face from the preceding play (the dunk) has to walk off the court with their tail between their legs. Jabril had already had a monster game to finish his Verizon career on a memorable note. He coulda just dribbled it out... O for god's sake. Do you want to hand out trophies to all the teams for participation too? Yea he coulda just dribbled it out, and any other game he probably would have. The kid wanted to put an exclamation point on his dynamite senior day game. This is high major college basketball, not CYA league. I would be shocked if any of the Seton Hall players, coaches, or fans begrudged him for that. Also, how often do you ever see the losing team dribble out the clock when they have the ball and the outcome has been determined? Never. They ALWAYS chuck up a prayer no matter the score and Gibbs did just that. Participation? Come on man, nobody is saying SHU gets a trophy but don't embarrass them. They could have kept pressing and fouling too, would you have preferred that? No, you'd probably be complaining about how you had somewhere else to be why couldn't they just let the game end. They were waving the white flag and Jabril couldn't help himself. And then you're going to defend it by saying Gibbs chucked up a prayer? He wouldnt have even had possession if Jabril just dribble it out, and in any case, what else was he going to do after getting salt on the wound and you know, the fact that they were losing! BTW, I watch a lot of CBB, and most games teams -- aside from the shameless ones coached by slimeballs that we all know -- dribble out the clock and when they don't you'll often see the coaching shaking his head or saying something in the post game interview about how he'll be having a talk with the player afterwards in the locker room.
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Mar 8, 2015 11:21:29 GMT -5
If someone buys you a beer and you didn't ask them to buy you a beer, it is probably common courtesy to return the favor. However, if you don't immediately buy them a beer, it doesn't mean you are wrong or not classy. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the road, III returns the favor. Maybe, in the first game next year. This is all also ridiculous because as GIGA said, to think that Willard would expect something in return defeats the whole purpose of the gesture. If somebody buys me a beer, it's during a social situation not during a competition to see who will have the most beers. This was still a game -- and an important one for league standings at that -- and the final score was in doubt the entire way through. Might have been even closer had SHU been down 3 late instead of 5. Maybe Gtown tightens up in that spot. In soccer, when one team stops play and kicks the ball out because an opponent is hurt, the other team ALWAYS plays the ball back to them because they respect the initial gesture and want to try to balance out the competitive aspect of the game. That's what we shoulda done, end of story. It would been doing right by everyone. And yes, when I buy somebody a beer, I never expect that person to buy me one. But when somebody buys me a beer, I sure as hell get the next round.... Look, all the sentimental stuff with Tyler is wonderful for him and the program at large. I don't want to lose sight at the forest-- it was a great day for everyone involved including SHU. And I'm even willing to give a little latitude because it seems like they were caught off guard about what to do after the dunk, as if they weren't expecting. Personally, I think JT3 should have discussed the possibility, and, absent that, given them a bucket after halftime. But am I going to say the moment was a stain on the program? No. It was just something I expected our team to do given the level of class I typically associate with them. Anyway, life will go on and this will be forgotten-- I've already written more about this than I wanted to, and it's mostly just a shame it gets any attention given the special moment Tyler had out there. Now, Jabril's dunk at the end is a different story. That, I have absolutely no explanation for.... Anyway, people can go on arguing this. I think I've made my points and am ready to move on, whoever responds can have the last word.... Denny you are right on target with the soccer analogy. Let the kid score 2 so he registers active participation in a game, give them 2 back to re-establish competitive balance then start the game. I would not feel comfortable if we won by two or one. Re: Jabril Do not score when the opposing team is no longer defending and the clock is expiring
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 8, 2015 11:21:41 GMT -5
I wasn't thrilled with Jabril's late dunk, until I realized that this was his exclamation point on a fine Hoya career. It's likely that this was his final game on the court at Verizon Center (unless. . .cough cough. . .he is in an NBA uniform next season), and in that context, I can readily excuse his not dribbling out the clock.
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Mar 8, 2015 11:24:56 GMT -5
People in the press are asking questions about this. It was a bad look for the school whatever the intentions or miscommunications. Nobody in the press has ever asked about Bradley Hayes No, you and the NJ writer are the only people "asking questions." ALL of the other media are focusing on the real story - Tyler Adams. Just admit you're wrong and stop grinding your axe. I'm sure it is insulting to a narcissists sensibilities but there are more than a few Hoya fans and others "asking questions."
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Post by strummer8526 on Mar 8, 2015 11:27:31 GMT -5
They threw up a 3/4 court shot at the buzzer. Jabril's dunk made it 9 against a team that had stopped playing defense and was already shaking hands. It's not the same thing. And 99/100 that shot doesnt go in and the team that was forced to throw it up to save face from the preceding play (the dunk) has to walk off the court with their tail between their legs. Jabril had already had a monster game to finish his Verizon career on a memorable note. He coulda just dribbled it out... Do you really mean this or are you just trying to play devil's advocate? I cant believe there is no universal agreement on this. That may have been Jabril's motivation, and it was fun and not that big a deal. But do we not all agree that when a team has a comfortable lead, when the shot clock is off , and when the other team has opted not to continue fouling, that the right thing to do is dribble the clock out? Really, do we not all agree on that? I understand other teams dont always do it, and I fully understand and appreciate that there were other circumstances yesterday (that many have mentioned) that sort of explain what Jabril was thinking. Even if I say it was not "wrong", can we not all agree that it would have been slightly more right to just dribble the clock out? I suspect you were kidding about the Hall's 3. They were losing. I dont believe there are any unwritten rules about the team losing not trying to score in the waning seconds. I'm not kidding at all, and I can't believe how hard people will look for something to complain about. Yes, in most situations, you just dribble it out. But as a senior, in your last game in front of your home crowd, you get the ball at the three point line with a clear path to the hoop, you give everyone a little send-off. Is it really any worse or more insulting than the coach needlessly prolonging the game by calling a timeout with two seconds left to pull all the seniors? It's not like we were winning by 40 points and had been celebrating in Seton Hall's face all day. I think everyone who watched the game recognized it was a hard-fought contest, and that Jabril just took one last opportunity to savor a moment at Georgetown. Even if Seton Hall didn't hit the three at the end, they would have lost by only 10 and would absolutely not have left with their tail between their legs. Given everything else going on around this game, no one was going to taunt Seton Hall about the final score. And if they cared about the bucket, they would have played defense. At the end of the day, it didn't matter at all. It was simply a nice moment for the seniors and the crowd—something that Seton Hall already demonstrated (in a showing of amazing class) that it understands.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 11:35:27 GMT -5
People in the press are asking questions about this. It was a bad look for the school whatever the intentions or miscommunications. Nobody in the press has ever asked about Bradley Hayes No, you and the NJ writer are the only people "asking questions." ALL of the other media are focusing on the real story - Tyler Adams. Just admit you're wrong and stop grinding your axe. No axe to grind. It's just not the way I grew up playing the game. BTW, check the posts on casual hoya. read the seton hall boards. even the wapo article had a subtle line about how JT3 didn't reciprocate. and then people commented on that in the wapo comments section. And this is to say nothing of just other friends from gtown that i've talked to that said they were disappointed. or the other posters here that have made reasonable points. You can keep saying "just admit that you're wrong" but you wind up sounding like our friend richard coleman from the other thread with his insular mentality. And to just finish of the axe to grind point, I have absolutely nothing against JT3. When people were asking about replacements I posted about how foolish that is. If he loses in the first round this year and next I'll still think it's foolish to fire him. The man represents the school with dignity and his players are class acts. But people make small small mistakes and nobody is above reproach, much less the smallest chastisement. The thunderous shout-downs of those who don't like how a couple things went down yesterday confirms this place's reputation for being an echo chamber and why we've seen a lot of people move over to casual...
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Mar 8, 2015 11:47:16 GMT -5
No, you and the NJ writer are the only people "asking questions." ALL of the other media are focusing on the real story - Tyler Adams. Just admit you're wrong and stop grinding your axe. No axe to grind. It's just not the way I grew up playing the game. BTW, check the posts on casual hoya. read the seton hall boards. even the wapo article had a subtle line about how JT3 didn't reciprocate. and then people commented on that in the wapo comments section. And this is to say nothing of just other friends from gtown that i've talked to that said they were disappointed. or the other posters here that have made reasonable points. You can keep saying "just admit that you're wrong" but you wind up sounding like our friend richard coleman from the other thread with his insular mentality. And to just finish of the axe to grind point, I have absolutely nothing against JT3. When people were asking about replacements I posted about how foolish that is. If he loses in the first round this year and next I'll still think it's foolish to fire him. The man represents the school with dignity and his players are class acts. But people make small small mistakes and nobody is above reproach, much less the smallest chastisement. The thunderous shout-downs of those who don't like how a couple things went down yesterday confirms this place's reputation for being an echo chamber and why we've seen a lot of people move over to casual... This place is an echo chamber? hahahahaha!!! Oh yeah really lockstep here, NEVER any opposing views or arguments! hahaahahaha!
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Mar 8, 2015 11:48:02 GMT -5
At what time is the game on Thursday! 7:00. Let's go! Yes! I won't have to wake up in the middle of the night for it! (morning game for me). That is good news!
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 8, 2015 11:55:50 GMT -5
No axe to grind. It's just not the way I grew up playing the game. BTW, check the posts on casual hoya. read the seton hall boards. even the wapo article had a subtle line about how JT3 didn't reciprocate. and then people commented on that in the wapo comments section. And this is to say nothing of just other friends from gtown that i've talked to that said they were disappointed. or the other posters here that have made reasonable points. You can keep saying "just admit that you're wrong" but you wind up sounding like our friend richard coleman from the other thread with his insular mentality. And to just finish of the axe to grind point, I have absolutely nothing against JT3. When people were asking about replacements I posted about how foolish that is. If he loses in the first round this year and next I'll still think it's foolish to fire him. The man represents the school with dignity and his players are class acts. But people make small small mistakes and nobody is above reproach, much less the smallest chastisement. The thunderous shout-downs of those who don't like how a couple things went down yesterday confirms this place's reputation for being an echo chamber and why we've seen a lot of people move over to casual... This place is an echo chamber? hahahahaha!!! Oh yeah really lockstep here, NEVER any opposing views or arguments! hahaahahaha! Jabril's antics cost me the winning prediction. I'm as Editeded as Pops who should be huffing and puffing. ![(rofl)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png) Continue.
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Post by bicentennial on Mar 8, 2015 12:09:04 GMT -5
I think it is sad to begrudge a senior on senior day one last opportunity to hear the thunderous applause that comes from a thunderous dunk. That may well be the last time Jabril gets to hear that roar. He is an emotional guy and will cherish the memory of hearing that roar one last time. Asking a player not to have a personality is stupid! Expecting Jabril to have a wide open path to the basket and not take the dunk after a final 3 minutes when our team was on the foul line 6 times is silly. I would argue that on a night when all our player are shooting over 50% from the line and you can't hack a Mikael to catch up the points, the fouling in the last 2 minutes was pretty pointless. I am glad that Gibbs got the points back with his 3 and also got that exclamation point to his last regular season game! Both seniors deserve those memories.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 8, 2015 12:32:29 GMT -5
If someone buys you a beer and you didn't ask them to buy you a beer, it is probably common courtesy to return the favor. However, if you don't immediately buy them a beer, it doesn't mean you are wrong or not classy. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the road, III returns the favor. Maybe, in the first game next year. This is all also ridiculous because as GIGA said, to think that Willard would expect something in return defeats the whole purpose of the gesture. If somebody buys me a beer, it's during a social situation not during a competition to see who will have the most beers. This was still a game -- and an important one for league standings at that -- and the final score was in doubt the entire way through. Might have been even closer had SHU been down 3 late instead of 5. Maybe Gtown tightens up in that spot. In soccer, when one team stops play and kicks the ball out because an opponent is hurt, the other team ALWAYS plays the ball back to them because they respect the initial gesture and want to try to balance out the competitive aspect of the game. That's what we shoulda done, end of story. It would been doing right by everyone. And yes, when I buy somebody a beer, I never expect that person to buy me one. But when somebody buys me a beer, I sure as hell get the next round.... Look, all the sentimental stuff with Tyler is wonderful for him and the program at large. I don't want to lose sight at the forest-- it was a great day for everyone involved including SHU. And I'm even willing to give a little latitude because it seems like they were caught off guard about what to do after the dunk, as if they weren't expecting. Personally, I think JT3 should have discussed the possibility, and, absent that, given them a bucket after halftime. But am I going to say the moment was a stain on the program? No. It was just something I expected our team to do given the level of class I typically associate with them. Anyway, life will go on and this will be forgotten-- I've already written more about this than I wanted to, and it's mostly just a shame it gets any attention given the special moment Tyler had out there. Now, Jabril's dunk at the end is a different story. That, I have absolutely no explanation for.... Anyway, people can go on arguing this. I think I've made my points and am ready to move on, whoever responds can have the last word.... The analogy is off, and so is your reasoning. Yes it would've been nice to reciprocate, but like many have said, it means much more to Tyler when the opposing coach is doing it out of the kindness of his own heart and not because both coaches agree beforehand to stage something. Read Willard's comment, he didn't have to let Tyler score, but he wanted to and didn't seem to expect anything in return because that's not why good people do nice things. Additionally, this isn't soccer so why are you trying to transplant their unique norms onto basketball?? There's a reason they exists on a 120-yd soccer pitch and not a 90 ft court.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 12:41:41 GMT -5
No axe to grind. It's just not the way I grew up playing the game. BTW, check the posts on casual hoya. read the seton hall boards. even the wapo article had a subtle line about how JT3 didn't reciprocate. and then people commented on that in the wapo comments section. And this is to say nothing of just other friends from gtown that i've talked to that said they were disappointed. or the other posters here that have made reasonable points. You can keep saying "just admit that you're wrong" but you wind up sounding like our friend richard coleman from the other thread with his insular mentality. And to just finish of the axe to grind point, I have absolutely nothing against JT3. When people were asking about replacements I posted about how foolish that is. If he loses in the first round this year and next I'll still think it's foolish to fire him. The man represents the school with dignity and his players are class acts. But people make small small mistakes and nobody is above reproach, much less the smallest chastisement. The thunderous shout-downs of those who don't like how a couple things went down yesterday confirms this place's reputation for being an echo chamber and why we've seen a lot of people move over to casual... This place is an echo chamber? hahahahaha!!! Oh yeah really lockstep here, NEVER any opposing views or arguments! hahaahahaha! Ha, fair enough. Shoulda said there is a group of people -- not everyone by any means -- that are pretty hard-headed in their views and it makes having a debate challenging
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