backdoor cuts

[Deleted]

Hi Guys!

I have been watching our success (or lack thereof) in backdoor layups this season. It appears that for every successful backdoor layup we have 5 failures resulting in a turnover. I am not trying to be overly critical, but does there come a time where we need to reassess this continuous strategy. Presently, our offense is still predicated on constant cuts. What do you guys think??

[hoyarad]

Most teams have prepared for the back door against us and are doing a much better job against it. That, and we don't pass as well this season.

[calhoya]

This raises a good point. Our offense is based upon principles that could more closely be labeled read and react. It places alot of responsibility upon the players to evaluate the opposing defense and make the decision as to what to do with the pass, dribble drive or shot. There is supposed to be a lot of cutting and high screens, including some pick and roll. But it is not a pure version of the Princeton offense and has not been. It has changed over recent seasons--thankfully.

The problem is simple this year--the Hoyas do not have the personnel to run their offense. Neither post is a threat away from the basket, thereby allowing the opposing team to clog the lane and deny the cut. No one cares when Smith or Hopkins goes out to the high post as there is virtually no chance either will attempt the shot from there. Only Copeland and possibly White present this threat. Moreover, the presence of Smith has changed the team's approach with entry passes. Even when the entry pass is good--something that has not been a constant--there is only one sequence that will occur. Smith attempts to back in to the basket and take a shot. If he brings the ball down or puts it on the floor, there is a high likelihood of a turnover, which explains his team leading turnover numbers. Smith rarely will make the pass out to the perimeter to the open man and even when he does this is a low percentage shooting team with only DSR considered a threat. Opposing teams stay on him and collapse on Smith leaving other shooters, like Trawick and Peak unguarded. Peak is not a good shooter and Trawick passes it up too often. Hopkins gets blocked easily or also turns the ball over when he attempts to dribble into traffic around the basket.

The team is woefully poor at shooting from beyond 10 feet. In fact, they rely upon two shots--the shot under the basket and beyond the arc. We seem to have no intermediate game. Shockingly, we miss a substantial number of shots within 5 feet and 3 point shooting is poor at best. For whatever reason Trawick will pass on the open shot, Peak needs alot of work, Bowen is not a good shooter and despite some nice moments, neither is Tre. When they play a quick transition game they look better, but often lose their discipline. Watching DSR pull up for a 24 foot attempt on a 3 on 1 was very poor judgment, but no more so than watching Tre and Peak repeatedly drive to the basket on transition offense and throw up wild, shots yesterday. Peak's numbers are misleading as he misses alot of shots from under the basket. It's frustrating but it is who the Hoyas are this year.

[JohnnyJones]

Feb 8, 2015 9:07:58 GMT -5 calhoya said:

This raises a good point. Our offense is based upon principles that could more closely be labeled read and react. It places alot of responsibility upon the players to evaluate the opposing defense and make the decision as to what to do with the pass, dribble drive or shot. There is supposed to be a lot of cutting and high screens, including some pick and roll. But it is not a pure version of the Princeton offense and has not been. It has changed over recent seasons--thankfully.

The problem is simple this year--the Hoyas do not have the personnel to run their offense. Neither post is a threat away from the basket, thereby allowing the opposing team to clog the lane and deny the cut. No one cares when Smith or Hopkins goes out to the high post as there is virtually no chance either will attempt the shot from there. Only Copeland and possibly White present this threat. Moreover, the presence of Smith has changed the team's approach with entry passes. Even when the entry pass is good--something that has not been a constant--there is only one sequence that will occur. Smith attempts to back in to the basket and take a shot. If he brings the ball down or puts it on the floor, there is a high likelihood of a turnover, which explains his team leading turnover numbers. Smith rarely will make the pass out to the perimeter to the open man and even when he does this is a low percentage shooting team with only DSR considered a threat. Opposing teams stay on him and collapse on Smith leaving other shooters, like Trawick and Peak unguarded. Peak is not a good shooter and Trawick passes it up too often. Hopkins gets blocked easily or also turns the ball over when he attempts to dribble into traffic around the basket.

The team is woefully poor at shooting from beyond 10 feet. In fact, they rely upon two shots--the shot under the basket and beyond the arc. We seem to have no intermediate game. Shockingly, we miss a substantial number of shots within 5 feet and 3 point shooting is poor at best. For whatever reason Trawick will pass on the open shot, Peak needs alot of work, Bowen is not a good shooter and despite some nice moments, neither is Tre. When they play a quick transition game they look better, but often lose their discipline. Watching DSR pull up for a 24 foot attempt on a 3 on 1 was very poor judgment, but no more so than watching Tre and Peak repeatedly drive to the basket on transition offense and throw up wild, shots yesterday. Peak's numbers are misleading as he misses alot of shots from under the basket. It's frustrating but it is who the Hoyas are this year.

Granted it was about the NBA, but I just read an article yesterday that said that smart teams take all of their shots from under the basket and beyond the arc. The intermediate game is a thing of the past. The article was focused on the fact that Knicks fans are hoping Phil Jackson is the savior, but he is old school and the Knicks take by far the most "intermediate" shots of any team in the NBA. We see how many games they are winning with that approach.

[calhoya]

Following up on shooting percentages. Peak is at 40% overall but only 23% from behind the arc. Tre is at 36%/33%, Hopkins at 40% with no 3 pt attempts. Considering where most of Hopkins and Peak's points come from these are very poor shooting numbers. In contrast, our reluctant shooter, Jabril shoots 52%/44%. One interesting anomaly is that both DSR and White shoot almost the same overall as from behind the arc--40%/38%. The same is true for Tre but his percentages are lower. Stats do not mean everything, but they cannot be ignored when evaluating a team's overall performance on offense.

[GIGAFAN99]

If you harass DSR, and Jabril drives and the defense collapses...who does he kick to?

I think we have to revisit the lineup in light of how teams play us. A Peak, Hop, Smith frontcourt is just inviting teams to guard DSR and paint.

We seriously have to think about Tre, DSR, Jabril, Ike, Smith as our core lineup. We tend to have at least one of Aaron or LJ in the game right now and I'm not sure we can afford to take away another shooter. I'd rather have both of them in and press while they are than one of them in taking away an outside threat.

[professorhoya]

Feb 8, 2015 10:00:54 GMT -5 GIGAFAN99 said:

If you harass DSR, and Jabril drives and the defense collapses...who does he kick to?

I think we have to revisit the lineup in light of how teams play us. A Peak, Hop, Smith frontcourt is just inviting teams to guard DSR and paint.

We seriously have to think about Tre, DSR, Jabril, Ike, Smith as our core lineup. We tend to have at least one of Aaron or LJ in the game right now and I'm not sure we can afford to take away another shooter. I'd rather have both of them in and press while they are than one of them in taking away an outside threat.

Tre was awful yesterday. Got his pocket picked on basic things like bringing the ball up court, was missing threes, getting lost on defense and throwing away passes for easy fast break points. And him playing alongside DSR really didn't help DSR get good looks either.

[GIGAFAN99]

Feb 8, 2015 10:52:42 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Feb 8, 2015 10:00:54 GMT -5 GIGAFAN99 said:

If you harass DSR, and Jabril drives and the defense collapses...who does he kick to?

I think we have to revisit the lineup in light of how teams play us. A Peak, Hop, Smith frontcourt is just inviting teams to guard DSR and paint.

We seriously have to think about Tre, DSR, Jabril, Ike, Smith as our core lineup. We tend to have at least one of Aaron or LJ in the game right now and I'm not sure we can afford to take away another shooter. I'd rather have both of them in and press while they are than one of them in taking away an outside threat.

Tre was awful yesterday. Got his pocket picked on basic things like bringing the ball up court, was missing threes, getting lost on defense and throwing away passes for easy fast break points. And him playing alongside DSR really didn't help DSR get good looks either.

If we go off yesterday, we start Hayes, Cameron, and Allen. Everyone who played was awful.

[aleutianhoya]

Two points:

First, having a post who can't shoot or drive from outside of fifteen feet obviously isn't ideal for a cutting-based offense, but it shouldn't be a huge problem so long as we're using a lot of screen-roll, which we are this year. In other words, if Josh is up top and handles the ball and then hands off to DSR, who rubs off of Josh (a play we use a ton), Josh's man has to come up high to help the man being screened. Otherwise DSR is wide open. Sometimes Josh comes up top early in a set and we don't run that sort of play (and people get frustrated) but I strongly believe it's a ploy early in the shot clock to try to convince Josh's man to stay low, so that later in the sequence, we can run the screen-roll. But that takes discipline. And also DSR isn't terribly well-suited to that sort of game because he's not explosive off the pick.

Second, as for the lineup construction, outside of DSR (who, even when he's having an off day, remains indispensable) and Mikael (who really shouldn't be playing at the four, but frankly, isn't playing much there now), I'm not sure there's anyone else in our 9 man rotation that is clearly and consistently better or worse than anyone else. They've all had their moments, and they've all had games where they are detriments. So, I think the only answer is to be flexible and try to find the hot hands each game. You've seen Paul's time go down as he's struggled (I don't think he even was first off the bench last game), and you've seen Tre get more time after having some good games (though he struggled yesterday). So, this is a long way of saying: I don't think there's a right answer to "give more time to X and less time to Y." I think it has to be by feel each game. Coach has done a good job (in my view) of that with Aaron. You have to give him a few minutes, at a minimum, each game becuase he can be such a difference maker if he's playing well and the matchup is right. But you have to pull him if it isn't working. I'd like to see more of that with everyone else.

[vanman]

This offense has and will continue to be dreadful. Everyone knows it's fool's gold to rely on 3pt shooting from this team. If you're going to break the zone it HAS to be from the line or inside. I don't want to see our posts anywhere near the FT line much less beyond it unless we're comfortably in front. Copeland or White MUST be in the game in an effort to get that shot from the elbow. They can pop out to back screen, turn and shoot or even play high/low. Whatever. It's asking a lot from freshmen to make these plays but this is the bed JT3 has made for this team. And it's up to him to get them to sleep in it. But right now it's a nightmare.

[EtomicB]

Feb 8, 2015 11:51:44 GMT -5 aleutianhoya said:

Two points:

First, having a post who can't shoot or drive from outside of fifteen feet obviously isn't ideal for a cutting-based offense, but it shouldn't be a huge problem so long as we're using a lot of screen-roll, which we are this year. In other words, if Josh is up top and handles the ball and then hands off to DSR, who rubs off of Josh (a play we use a ton), Josh's man has to come up high to help the man being screened. Otherwise DSR is wide open. Sometimes Josh comes up top early in a set and we don't run that sort of play (and people get frustrated) but I strongly believe it's a ploy early in the shot clock to try to convince Josh's man to stay low, so that later in the sequence, we can run the screen-roll. But that takes discipline. And also DSR isn't terribly well-suited to that sort of game because he's not explosive off the pick.

Second, as for the lineup construction, outside of DSR (who, even when he's having an off day, remains indispensable) and Mikael (who really shouldn't be playing at the four, but frankly, isn't playing much there now), I'm not sure there's anyone else in our 9 man rotation that is clearly and consistently better or worse than anyone else. They've all had their moments, and they've all had games where they are detriments. So, I think the only answer is to be flexible and try to find the hot hands each game. You've seen Paul's time go down as he's struggled (I don't think he even was first off the bench last game), and you've seen Tre get more time after having some good games (though he struggled yesterday). So, this is a long way of saying: I don't think there's a right answer to "give more time to X and less time to Y." I think it has to be by feel each game. Coach has done a good job (in my view) of that with Aaron. You have to give him a few minutes, at a minimum, each game becuase he can be such a difference maker if he's playing well and the matchup is right. But you have to pull him if it isn't working. I'd like to see more of that with everyone else.

I disagree with your 1st point, using Josh in a high screen situation will never be a productive play because his defender never has to guard him..

DSR, Peak, Tre or whoever uses Smith or Hopkins screens at the high post will get double teamed every time they try to turn the corner.. My hope is Govan, Derrickson or Agua will take the 15-18 foot jumper that Smith & Hopkins are unable to..

My question is how come we very rarely see the bigs screen for each other on the blocks?

The only line-up change I want to see is Smith & Hopkins NEVER playing together.. How many games in a row has the 2nd half line-up not included Smith or Hopkins?

Why not just go ahead and make the change to start the game?

[dense]

Feb 8, 2015 11:51:44 GMT -5 aleutianhoya said:

Two points:

First, having a post who can't shoot or drive from outside of fifteen feet obviously isn't ideal for a cutting-based offense, but it shouldn't be a huge problem so long as we're using a lot of screen-roll, which we are this year. In other words, if Josh is up top and handles the ball and then hands off to DSR, who rubs off of Josh (a play we use a ton), Josh's man has to come up high to help the man being screened. Otherwise DSR is wide open. Sometimes Josh comes up top early in a set and we don't run that sort of play (and people get frustrated) but I strongly believe it's a ploy early in the shot clock to try to convince Josh's man to stay low, so that later in the sequence, we can run the screen-roll. But that takes discipline. And also DSR isn't terribly well-suited to that sort of game because he's not explosive off the pick.

Second, as for the lineup construction, outside of DSR (who, even when he's having an off day, remains indispensable) and Mikael (who really shouldn't be playing at the four, but frankly, isn't playing much there now), I'm not sure there's anyone else in our 9 man rotation that is clearly and consistently better or worse than anyone else. They've all had their moments, and they've all had games where they are detriments. So, I think the only answer is to be flexible and try to find the hot hands each game. You've seen Paul's time go down as he's struggled (I don't think he even was first off the bench last game), and you've seen Tre get more time after having some good games (though he struggled yesterday). So, this is a long way of saying: I don't think there's a right answer to "give more time to X and less time to Y." I think it has to be by feel each game. Coach has done a good job (in my view) of that with Aaron. You have to give him a few minutes, at a minimum, each game becuase he can be such a difference maker if he's playing well and the matchup is right. But you have to pull him if it isn't working. I'd like to see more of that with everyone else.

The 1st point is why I am so happy that Govan is coming. It will open up everything. Like when Jeff Green used to run the 5. Govan can handle the ball well for a 6'11" guy.

[prhoya]

I think Marcus will do it even better than Govan. Although we know how good outside shooters disappear when they get to GU, this kid could be the best shooter after DSR next year. That's perfect for the Hibbert-Wallace Hand-Off play.

[dense]

Feb 8, 2015 15:33:13 GMT -5 prhoya said:

I think Marcus will do it even better than Govan. Although we know how good outside shooters disappear when they get to GU, this kid could be the best shooter after DSR next year. That's perfect for the Hibbert-Wallace Hand-Off play.

Marcus can't really play the 5 on Defense. He is not a center.

[prhoya]

Feb 8, 2015 17:21:49 GMT -5 dense said:

Feb 8, 2015 15:33:13 GMT -5 prhoya said:

I think Marcus will do it even better than Govan. Although we know how good outside shooters disappear when they get to GU, this kid could be the best shooter after DSR next year. That's perfect for the Hibbert-Wallace Hand-Off play.

Marcus can't really play the 5 on Defense. He is not a center.

He can be better than Josh Smith on defense.

[rockhoya]

Feb 9, 2015 0:29:55 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Feb 8, 2015 17:21:49 GMT -5 dense said:

Marcus can't really play the 5 on Defense. He is not a center.

He can be better than Josh Smith on defense.

Can he though?

[Cambridge]

To some degree I think this is dependent on officiating, backdoor cuts aren't really an effective option when teams are allowed to grab or "bump" cutters. When the officials are letting that happen, the team has to recognize that and not try to force it because it just results in a turnover.

[FrazierFanatic]

The backdoor also requires that the defender be concerned that his man can hit the outside shot and/or drive effectively to the hoop, therefore the defender has to play tight, or even overplay, allowing the offensive player to fake one way, then make that hard cut. Our perimeter players have not been consistent enough to force defenses to try to deny them the ball.

[NCHoya]

What I have noticed in recent years, and seems to only be getting worse this season, is the number of very difficult contested lay-ups this team tries and misses. Peak, Campbell and even Trawick (although he can often get the foul) are guilty of taking difficult shots at the rim. So the NBA idea that you either shoot the three or shoot at the rim is not so simple for the Hoyas. I would contend those high difficulty layups are a much lower percentage shot than an open mid-range jumper. The NBA theory assumes that when you are at the rim, you convert 65% of the time. That is simply not true with our team.

I also agree that our offense is handicapped by not having a 4/5 that can take a 15 foot jump shot or facilitate with good passing. It is what it is, we need to just continue to take the open shots, work on rebounding and avoid low % lay-ups. Good defense and rebounding combined with a clean game (low TOs, high FT%) should be enough to win most of these remaining games.

[b52legend]

Feb 9, 2015 12:47:56 GMT -5 NCHoya said:

What I have noticed in recent years, and seems to only be getting worse this season, is the number of very difficult contested lay-ups this team tries and misses. Peak, Campbell and even Trawick (although he can often get the foul) are guilty of taking difficult shots at the rim. So the NBA idea that you either shoot the three or shoot at the rim is not so simple for the Hoyas. I would contend those high difficulty layups are a much lower percentage shot than an open mid-range jumper. The NBA theory assumes that when you are at the rim, you convert 65% of the time. That is simply not true with our team.

I also agree that our offense is handicapped by not having a 4/5 that can take a 15 foot jump shot or facilitate with good passing. It is what it is, we need to just continue to take the open shots, work on rebounding and avoid low % lay-ups. Good defense and rebounding combined with a clean game (low TOs, high FT%) should be enough to win most of these remaining games.

Totally agree with this assessment. Often times our guys look like they won't be satisfied with anything but a layup. That mindset often results in turnovers as they get stripped in traffic or blocked, and difficult shots. In theory a 15 foot jumper is a lower percentage shot than a layup, but you have to factor in the turnover percentage on the drive and the offensive rebound potential off the jumper.

I'm no basketball coach, but a few things have become clear to me:

1) Smith's offensive place is on the blocks. Our offense isn't effective with him at the high post. He can't do a pick and pop and DSR (who is the primary ball handler in those situations) isn't quick enough to get around the corner or find an open passing lane. I would prefer to see Smith posted down low and have White or Copeland be the screener up top. They are both shooting threats off the screen and can put the ball on the floor to drive if the defender is out of position. Which leads me to...

2) Copeland and White need to play more, and play more together. Against Villanova the first time around they played a combined 42 minutes. This last game they played 30. These are the two guys on the roster that most resemble the type of player our offense needs to really get going (e.g., JG and OP) and coach has to put them in a position to grab the reigns and get going. Their current minutes isn't doing that. Who has been taking these minutes -- primarily Hopkins. I like Hopkins, but our offense isn't going to be tight when he is on the floor with Smith. If coach wants to play him at the 5, with white and Copeland at the 4 and 3, fine, but our starting lineup against Villanova has proven consistently throughout the year that they can't get it done on the offensive end. I know a lot of us have been calling for this change all year, its just baffling that after seemingly having breakthrough success with Copeland and White on the floor together, we have reverted to status quo lineups.