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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 12:39:13 GMT -5
Many good points made here. Zone offense aside, it seems that many of our players seem to lose confidence if they miss a shot or two. Thislosss of confidence gets worse as the game goes on. If the shot is open, take it. Peak seems to have lost some confidence in any shot except the drive to the basket. Just shoot that ball, guys. The shots will fall.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 12, 2015 13:09:10 GMT -5
Many good points made here. Zone offense aside, it seems that many of our players seem to lose confidence if they miss a shot or two. Thislosss of confidence gets worse as the game goes on. If the shot is open, take it. Peak seems to have lost some confidence in any shot except the drive to the basket. Just shoot that ball, guys. The shots will fall. Seriously, and I don't think that's oversimplifying it. Couple that with bringing most consistent effort from the tip and things will start to look pretty good for this team.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Jan 12, 2015 13:49:22 GMT -5
Many good points made here. Zone offense aside, it seems that many of our players seem to lose confidence if they miss a shot or two. Thislosss of confidence gets worse as the game goes on. If the shot is open, take it. Peak seems to have lost some confidence in any shot except the drive to the basket. Just shoot that ball, guys. The shots will fall. Agree. Maybe the young alumni section should do a tifo for Saturday that says "Just let it fly Hoyas ..."
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bkhoya
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Post by bkhoya on Jan 12, 2015 14:44:36 GMT -5
I don't think this coach truly appreciates dribble penetration to beat the zone. For years we've seen this team throw the ball around the perimeter with no real north/south movement.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 12, 2015 15:06:22 GMT -5
Bowen and Jabril don't pull the trigger because they aren't good shooters. Bowen is a career 26% 3pt shooter so the 40% under a small sample size is deceptive. Trawick is career 32% 3pt shooter. He's actually not bad but he prefers driving to shooting outside. However when Bowen misses he misses badly so it's equivalent to a turnover. And you can leave them open for 5 seconds and it still wouldn't improve their 3pt shooting because they have to think about it. Some players are automatic if they are left wide open in essence shooting a much higher percentage when nobody is in their face compared to when they are guarded. Those are the players who benefit from passing and zones. Have you ever heard of the term improvement? Aaron's shot has improved in practice apparently, you can tell in warmups it's gotten significantly better, and his on court stats start to back it up. Jabril's jumper is no longer broke like it used to be (it actually was never that bad outside of game settings), he showed improvement over the spring, carried that into Kenner, and has been shooting well in practice and in games since. His shot is obviously better when open too so I don't know where you got this notion that players can't perform differently from one day to the next, or in this case one year to the next. Jabril and Aaron have admittedly shown a reluctance to shoot, but until they start shooting worse from three than any of our other players save Paul I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. And I'll give them the benefit of the doubt because they HAVE TO start hitting for this team to reach its potential and the excuse that they are simply not good shooters isn't really all that valid at this point in their careers, nor should it be acceptable. Sorry but they are not elite shooters or even good 3pt shooters. They just aren't. That's not their game. It's pretty rare for someone who is a bad outside shooter to suddenly become a 3pt assassin. They are hesitating for sure on their 3pt shots which means they have to think about it. And if you are still at the stage of having to think about shooting a wide open shot, then you are not a good perimeter shooter.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 12, 2015 15:29:32 GMT -5
Have you ever heard of the term improvement? Aaron's shot has improved in practice apparently, you can tell in warmups it's gotten significantly better, and his on court stats start to back it up. Jabril's jumper is no longer broke like it used to be (it actually was never that bad outside of game settings), he showed improvement over the spring, carried that into Kenner, and has been shooting well in practice and in games since. His shot is obviously better when open too so I don't know where you got this notion that players can't perform differently from one day to the next, or in this case one year to the next. Jabril and Aaron have admittedly shown a reluctance to shoot, but until they start shooting worse from three than any of our other players save Paul I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. And I'll give them the benefit of the doubt because they HAVE TO start hitting for this team to reach its potential and the excuse that they are simply not good shooters isn't really all that valid at this point in their careers, nor should it be acceptable. Sorry but they are not elite shooters or even good 3pt shooters. They just aren't. That's not their game. It's pretty rare for someone who is a bad outside shooter to suddenly become a 3pt assassin. They are hesitating for sure on their 3pt shots which means they have to think about it. And if you are still at the stage of having to think about shooting a wide open shot, then you are not a good perimeter shooter. Nobody is asking them to be elite or good, only passable, but so far they've been above that. Their actual skills and mechanics have improved, and their percentages are second and third best on the team. Try to deal in reality, not what you think it should be. Again, who is asking them to be assassins? Nobody. You know who were 3pt assassins under III? Jwall, to an extent Dajuan, Austin, Hollis, and for about a season A combination of DSR and Markel. You don't have to be elite to be serviceable. DSR has been hesitating too, does that not make him a good shooter either? Thinking about not shooting an open shot isn't necessarily indicative of not having the ability to shoot, in fact, it's in our offense's nature to take a split second to assess the situation upon catching the ball, and when our strength is posting up Josh it would make sense to see if there's an open entry pass before shooting. Our offense is predicated on getting the best shot available, and just because Jabril and Aaron's shooting isn't a strength of our offense doesn't automatically make it a liability either. It means that we may have better options, which we do, but at this point no one else on this team (other than Paul) has been able to capitalize on outside shooting opportunities as well as they have. And that's a fact based in reality, I don't see the problem giving them credit where it's due and also give them the benefit of the doubt until they show otherwise. They didn't just wake up one morning and shoot better percentages because of good luck, they worked at their craft and we have seen flashes of the fruits of their labor. At separate times it has been them hitting the outside shot that has made a difference in games.
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dense
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Post by dense on Jan 12, 2015 16:14:05 GMT -5
I agree with rockhoya here. Bowen isn't a great shooter but if he has space he has to shoot that 3. He isn't so bad that it is the worst shot ever. Also would like to see if we are struggling to give Cameron a 3 minute stretch. If he is hitting leave him out there if not take him out. His defense hurts us on the other end but his reputation makes teams guard him.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 12, 2015 16:20:26 GMT -5
I agree with rockhoya here. Bowen isn't a great shooter but if he has space he has to shoot that 3. He isn't so bad that it is the worst shot ever. Also would like to see if we are struggling to give Cameron a 3 minute stretch. If he is hitting leave him out there if not take him out. His defense hurts us on the other end but his reputation makes teams guard him. When has he ever hit? What reputation? As the guy recruited as a 3 point shooter but hasn't proven it? If I'm an opposing coach I let him shoot until he proves he can hit more than 1 in a row. He is 30 for 98 in his career, and 5 for 20 this year from 3. Not exactly lighting it up.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 12, 2015 16:36:45 GMT -5
Sorry but they are not elite shooters or even good 3pt shooters. They just aren't. That's not their game. It's pretty rare for someone who is a bad outside shooter to suddenly become a 3pt assassin. They are hesitating for sure on their 3pt shots which means they have to think about it. And if you are still at the stage of having to think about shooting a wide open shot, then you are not a good perimeter shooter. Nobody is asking them to be elite or good, only passable, but so far they've been above that. Their actual skills and mechanics have improved, and their percentages are second and third best on the team. Try to deal in reality, not what you think it should be. Again, who is asking them to be assassins? Nobody. You know who were 3pt assassins under III? Jwall, to an extent Dajuan, Austin, Hollis, and for about a season A combination of DSR and Markel. You don't have to be elite to be serviceable. DSR has been hesitating too, does that not make him a good shooter either? Thinking about not shooting an open shot isn't necessarily indicative of not having the ability to shoot, in fact, it's in our offense's nature to take a split second to assess the situation upon catching the ball, and when our strength is posting up Josh it would make sense to see if there's an open entry pass before shooting. Our offense is predicated on getting the best shot available, and just because Jabril and Aaron's shooting isn't a strength of our offense doesn't automatically make it a liability either. It means that we may have better options, which we do, but at this point no one else on this team (other than Paul) has been able to capitalize on outside shooting opportunities as well as they have. And that's a fact based in reality, I don't see the problem giving them credit where it's due and also give them the benefit of the doubt until they show otherwise. They didn't just wake up one morning and shoot better percentages because of good luck, they worked at their craft and we have seen flashes of the fruits of their labor. At separate times it has been them hitting the outside shot that has made a difference in games. You keep hanging on Bowen's 3pt shooting percentage (based on a small sample size of 5/12) for this year but he has a career 26% 3pt percentage. That's the reality.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 12, 2015 16:44:17 GMT -5
Also would like to see if we are struggling to give Cameron a 3 minute stretch. If he is hitting leave him out there if not take him out. His defense hurts us on the other end but his reputation makes teams guard him. When has he ever hit? What reputation? As the guy recruited as a 3 point shooter but hasn't proven it? If I'm an opposing coach I let him shoot until he proves he can hit more than 1 in a row. He is 30 for 98 in his career, and 5 for 20 this year from 3. Not exactly lighting it up. SS, in every game that Cameron comes in, the announcer/commentator reads of the game notes and says something along the lines "he's a sharpshooter", etc... You can bet the opposing team knows this, but also knows about his low %. But, like dense says, if a shooter with that reputation hits one, then he will get some perimeter attention, unless the opposing coach is a stubborn coach and thinks "it cannot happen again because the numbers say so, right?"
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 12, 2015 16:50:39 GMT -5
When has he ever hit? What reputation? As the guy recruited as a 3 point shooter but hasn't proven it? If I'm an opposing coach I let him shoot until he proves he can hit more than 1 in a row. He is 30 for 98 in his career, and 5 for 20 this year from 3. Not exactly lighting it up. SS, in every game that Cameron comes in, the announcer/commentator reads of the game notes and says something along the lines "he's a sharpshooter", etc... You can bet the opposing team knows this, but also knows about his low %. But, like dense says, if a shooter with that reputation hits one, then he will get some perimeter attention, unless the opposing coach is a stubborn coach and thinks "it cannot happen again because the numbers say so, right?" That's why I say more than 1 in a row. Statistically, isn't the "stubborn coach" likely to be correct? Now if he hit 2 in a row then you cover him. I may be wrong, but I can't remember him ever hitting 2 3s in a row. Certainly not this year. Announcer/commentators would be more accurate if they described Cameron as having the reputation yet it is belied by his collegiate numbers. Cameron is a spot up shooter as well. I think the other discussion on the board suggests that the zone offense isn't exactly robust in moving the ball to the open shooter. But unless and until JTIII puts Cameron in and really green lights him, I guess we'll never know.
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Post by paulioz7 on Jan 12, 2015 16:54:44 GMT -5
I see players such as Bowen and Trawick as guards that cannot really get their shot off. In other words they cannot create a shot. If they are wide open they may shoot. But they cannot do a basketball move and rise and shoot. That limits them tremendously. They are left with trying to drive to the basket or shoot wide open shots. You need guys that can drive but also pull up on you and shoot. At this point in their careers, year 4 and 5 it is what it is. Their skill set is very unusual a typical for Georgetown guards. I believe that is why the number of shots for Trawick is reality low for the minutes he plays.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 12, 2015 17:03:26 GMT -5
Good discussion going on and I'm sure JT3 is taking notes... Quick questions: 1. If the coaching staff has a limited amount of teaching hours with the team in the pre-season, and an even more limited amount of hours with the team once the season starts, what happens if the majority of those hours went to teaching our whatchamacallit offense and the team cannot run it in games because the lanes are clogged or we have too many inexperienced players (freshmen and players who have seen limited time) in our system or we don't have the passers or the other team is playing a tight zone (1-3-1 or regular) daring us to shoot from the perimeter or the FT line? 2. Knowing that other BE will prepare for us by taking away the cuts and backdoors, and that more and more BE teams are going to zone us, how should JT3 approach this in practice and in recruiting?
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dense
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Post by dense on Jan 12, 2015 17:06:15 GMT -5
SS, in every game that Cameron comes in, the announcer/commentator reads of the game notes and says something along the lines "he's a sharpshooter", etc... You can bet the opposing team knows this, but also knows about his low %. But, like dense says, if a shooter with that reputation hits one, then he will get some perimeter attention, unless the opposing coach is a stubborn coach and thinks "it cannot happen again because the numbers say so, right?" That's why I say more than 1 in a row. Statistically, isn't the "stubborn coach" likely to be correct? Now if he hit 2 in a row then you cover him. I may be wrong, but I can't remember him ever hitting 2 3s in a row. Certainly not this year. Announcer/commentators would be more accurate if they described Cameron as having the reputation yet it is belied by his collegiate numbers. Cameron is a spot up shooter as well. I think the other discussion on the board suggests that the zone offense isn't exactly robust in moving the ball to the open shooter. But unless and until JTIII puts Cameron in and really green lights him, I guess we'll never know. Every coach knows the stat that 33% from 3= 50% from 2. So they will respect it if you hit one. Also every coach knows this guy can shoot they recruited him as well and saw his shooting prowess in the EYBL.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 12, 2015 17:16:21 GMT -5
That's why I say more than 1 in a row. Statistically, isn't the "stubborn coach" likely to be correct? Now if he hit 2 in a row then you cover him. I may be wrong, but I can't remember him ever hitting 2 3s in a row. Certainly not this year. Announcer/commentators would be more accurate if they described Cameron as having the reputation yet it is belied by his collegiate numbers. Cameron is a spot up shooter as well. I think the other discussion on the board suggests that the zone offense isn't exactly robust in moving the ball to the open shooter. But unless and until JTIII puts Cameron in and really green lights him, I guess we'll never know. Every coach knows the stat that 33% from 3= 50% from 2. So they will respect it if you hit one. Also every coach knows this guy can shoot they recruited him as well and saw his shooting prowess in the EYBL. Well, he is below 33% for a career and 25% for this season. I guess we will agree to disagree on this one. Nothing would make me happier than to see Cameron inserted against a zone and he has a breakout game. But I'm not seeing it.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 12, 2015 17:31:26 GMT -5
Good discussion going on and I'm sure JT3 is taking notes... Quick questions: 1. If the coaching staff has a limited amount of teaching hours with the team in the pre-season, and an even more limited amount of hours with the team once the season starts, what happens if the majority of those hours went to teaching our whatchamacallit offense and the team cannot run it in games because the lanes are clogged or we have too many inexperienced players (freshmen and players who have seen limited time) in our system or we don't have the passers or the other team is playing a tight zone (1-3-1 or regular) daring us to shoot from the perimeter or the FT line? 2. Knowing that other BE will prepare for us by taking away the cuts and backdoors, and that more and more BE teams are going to zone us, how should JT3 approach this in practice and in recruiting? I mentioned this in the hot seat thread but I think the one thing that this team needs is a young up and coming shooting guru type assistant coach or advisor. (Brad Stevens, Andy Enfield). Someone who really knows the mechanics and can make suggestions to improve a bad shooter to an okay shooter and a good shooter into a great shooter. Now part of it is the player you recruited already has a shooting form and so you can only work with what is brought in. But looking at those teams and even Pitino teams you can see the shooting skill development in guys like Jamal Mashurn or those Butler/FGCU teams. And I really don't think it would take that much time away from working on the Princeton offense etc because players are going to spend time practicing their shot. The problem is that if you have faulty mechanics or bad habits, practicing those same mechanics over and over again will only slightly improve your shot. (I think this is the case Lubick, Hopkins, Bowen). Sometimes though you just don't have it because your bad habits have been ingrained so much that it is pretty much impossible to change a habit that has been practiced for 10-12 years. Jeremiah Rivers is an example of this as he had the money to hire a shooting guru over the summer but it didn't help him at all. Like with Hopkins, his shot just needs a little more arc. It's a little bit too flat, and given his height, he really has little margin for error and has to really concentrate and be on for his shot to go in. If he had a little bit more arc he would have a greater margin or error and have more of the basket available to him. In Trawick's case, his shot relies too much on his incredible jumping ability. He actually needs to jump less and then his shot would be more consistent. He actually started to jump less last year and I think you did see an improvement in his shot when he came back from the jaw injury last year. This is one of the same adjustments that Jeremy Lin made before Linsanity. Before he was trying to jump too high before releasing his shot and that was slowing down his release and leading to an inconsistent 3pt shot. But the shooting guru he brought in over the summer told him to jump less and work on releasing the ball quicker. In Trawick's case his forms not bad, it's just that he needs to jump less on that shot IMO. Lubick was a tough case. They really should have just completely dismantled his mechanics and had him start over. I'm sure he put in alot of practice time working on his shot but if you are shooting it the wrong way their will be little return.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 12, 2015 17:33:58 GMT -5
That's why I say more than 1 in a row. Statistically, isn't the "stubborn coach" likely to be correct? Now if he hit 2 in a row then you cover him. I may be wrong, but I can't remember him ever hitting 2 3s in a row. Certainly not this year. Announcer/commentators would be more accurate if they described Cameron as having the reputation yet it is belied by his collegiate numbers. Cameron is a spot up shooter as well. I think the other discussion on the board suggests that the zone offense isn't exactly robust in moving the ball to the open shooter. But unless and until JTIII puts Cameron in and really green lights him, I guess we'll never know. Every coach knows the stat that 33% from 3= 50% from 2. So they will respect it if you hit one. Also every coach knows this guy can shoot they recruited him as well and saw his shooting prowess in the EYBL. I think it's also about how badly the misses are. If your misses are airballs or bricks that essentially become turnovers then teams won't respect your shot. If your misses just rim out or are close every time then you will get the respect. Some of Cameron's misses have been bad. Domingo had that problem. I'm sure some of it is not getting enough PT but if you miss badly then teams aren't going to respect you even if you have an average percentage.
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dense
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Post by dense on Jan 12, 2015 18:09:31 GMT -5
You both are using numbers to justify your argument which makes you feel right but every game he comes in I hear the opposing defense yell "shooter" when he gets the ball. So that would tell me other coaches know he can shoot and have obviously told their team this.
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dense
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Post by dense on Jan 12, 2015 18:12:46 GMT -5
Also my post wasn't to give him 20 minutes. It was to say that we have an option to try for a limited time against these defenses why don't we give him a 3 minute stretch to.see if he can hit one. My use of the 33=50 wasn't to say he can at least hit that. It was more to say the threat of those numbers forces teams to guard someone they think can hit those percentages.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 12, 2015 18:17:13 GMT -5
Also my post wasn't to give him 20 minutes. It was to say that we have an option to try for a limited time against these defenses why don't we give him a 3 minute stretch to.see if he can hit one. My use of the 33=50 wasn't to say he can at least hit that. It was more to say the threat of those numbers forces teams to guard someone they think can hit those percentages. I think the main problem is he's at the backlog at small forward/shooting guard behind LJ Peak/Trawick/Bowen/Paul White/Copeland. If he could play power forward and rebound at even a Hollis Thompson rate he would be getting alot more minutes.
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