Officers Rafael Ramos & Wenjian Liu

[This Just In]

With the shoot of 2 NYPD officers, will this silence the protesters (i.e. less news coverage)?

Also does anyone else besides Fox News, Rudy Giuliani  and James Woods blame Al Shaprton and Mayor Bill de Blasio for the police slayings?

[kchoya]

Dec 23, 2014 15:22:34 GMT -5 This Just In said:

With the shoot of 2 NYPD officers, will this silence the protesters (i.e. less news coverage)?

Also does anyone else besides Fox News, Rudy Giuliani  and James Woods blame Al Shaprton and Mayor Bill de Blasio for the police slayings?

Giuliani said de Blasio was responsible for the murder of the officers? I missed that. You have a link?

[This Just In]

Dec 23, 2014 16:16:31 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Dec 23, 2014 15:22:34 GMT -5 This Just In said:

With the shoot of 2 NYPD officers, will this silence the protesters (i.e. less news coverage)?

Also does anyone else besides Fox News, Rudy Giuliani  and James Woods blame Al Shaprton and Mayor Bill de Blasio for the police slayings?

Giuliani said de Blasio was responsible for the murder of the officers? I missed that. You have a link?

I stand corrected....Giuliani finds fault in Blasio's handling of the protesters but lays blame at President Obama's "Anti-Police" rhetoric for the murders.

[tashoya]

Either assignment of blame is ridiculous. Giuliani should be ashamed of himself. Though de Blasio essentially throwing his police force under the bus was a moronic thing to have done.

[SirSaxa]

Dec 28, 2014 23:10:49 GMT -5 tashoya said:

Though de Blasio essentially throwing his police force under the bus was a moronic thing to have done.

How, exactly, did the Mayor "throw the police force under the bus?"

[tashoya]

Dec 31, 2014 0:06:28 GMT -5 SirSaxa said:

Dec 28, 2014 23:10:49 GMT -5 tashoya said:

Though de Blasio essentially throwing his police force under the bus was a moronic thing to have done.

How, exactly, did the Mayor "throw the police force under the bus?"

By his comments about his views on the police force. He's entitled to his opinion but to use his son as a basis for opinion without presenting one instance in which his son was ever bothered by the police was beyond irresponsible. Which is not to say that I agree with the decision of the cops to turn their backs on him during his eulogy for Officer Ramos or that there aren't issues that need to be addressed. I only mean that he shouldn't have generalized so broadly. Just one of many articles:

www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-29/de-blasio-gets-applause-mixed-with-heckling-at-police-graduation.html

[quickplay]

"By his comments about his views on the police force."

What comments?

Also he's not allowed to talk to his own son about the reality of being a minority and interacting with the police in America? That's an unfortunately common, necessary talk in America.

[SaxaCD]

Dec 31, 2014 10:15:35 GMT -5 quickplay said:

"By his comments about his views on the police force."

What comments?

Also he's not allowed to talk to his own son about the reality of being a minority and interacting with the police in America? That's an unfortunately common, necessary talk in America.

Come on, the guy RAN his election bid on running down the police dept. You reap what you sow, sometimes.

[TC]

I like how the people charging de Blasio with "throwing the police under the bus" can't come up with a single concrete instance of that to back up their claim. He apparently ran his election bid on running down the police department, but you can't cite one instance of where this actually happened. I know opposition to stop and frisk is going to be dragged out, but I'd like to see a real argument why opposing a specific procedure is "throwing them under the bus". Even his comments about his son were about how he should do everything the police asked, very slowly.

Amazing to see conservatives to jump in bed with a overreaching union leader, but this is just another completely partisan fight given that the police and firefighter unions are the two conservative-voting unions and the ones always exempted by Republican politicians.

[SaxaCD]

Dec 31, 2014 11:14:16 GMT -5 TC said:

I like how the people charging de Blasio with "throwing the police under the bus" can't come up with a single concrete instance of that to back up their claim. He apparently ran his election bid on running down the police department, but you can't cite one instance of where this actually happened. I know opposition to stop and frisk is going to be dragged out, but I'd like to see a real argument why opposing a specific procedure is "throwing them under the bus". Even his comments about his son were about how he should do everything the police asked, very slowly.

Amazing to see conservatives to jump in bed with a overreaching union leader, but this is just another completely partisan fight given that the police and firefighter unions are the two conservative-voting unions and the ones always exempted by Republican politicians.

No, for some of us who actually care about New York, it's a lot more than that.

[kchoya]

Dec 31, 2014 10:15:35 GMT -5 quickplay said:

Also he's not allowed to talk to his own son about the reality of being a minority and interacting with the police in America? That's an unfortunately common, necessary talk in America.

Please. You know there's a difference between a father and son having a talk at home -- or the Mayor and his son having a talk in private -- and de Blasio making comments at a press conference in his capacity as Mayor.

[kchoya]

Dec 31, 2014 11:14:16 GMT -5 TC said:

Amazing to see conservatives to jump in bed with a overreaching union leader, but this is just another completely partisan fight given that the police and firefighter unions are the two conservative-voting unions and the ones always exempted by Republican politicians.

So one can only be 100% pro-union or 100% anti-union? Good to know. Any other political/social absolutes we should know about?

[hoyainspirit]

De Blasio ran on a platform of restraining police because too many police are out of control in NYC. The city's police force is in dire need of reform. The most irresponsible comments have been uttered by Giuliani and Lynch. Giuliani's "...four months of propaganda starting with the president that everybody should hate the police" nonsense and Lynch's "blood on the hands" comment were far worse than anything said by de Blasio. One may argue that de Blasio should have kept his comments to his son private. But of what is de Blasio guilty? Of telling his son to be careful when interacting with the police, pointing out the obvious racial disparity in the policing in NY? Of stating that the peaceful protesters, not the troublemakers, have a decent point? Lynch's comments and actions, OTOH, especially the threat to instruct officers to do the absolute minimum in terms of policing, represent a threat to civilian control of the police and a threat to the safety of people in New York. His statements and actions accomplish zero except to widen the gulf between police, the mayor, and the citizens the police are supposed to protect and to serve.  Instead of showing his ass, Lynch should be working to root out cops in his union who don't deserve or abuse the position, rather than reflexively defending cops whenever they injure or kill someone, regardless of circumstances. The failure in leadership rests with Giuliani and Lynch, not de Blasio.

[quickplay]

"No, for some of us who actually care about New York, it's a lot more than that." - What does this mean?

"Please. You know there's a difference between a father and son having a talk at home -- or the Mayor and his son having a talk in private -- and de Blasio making comments at a press conference in his capacity as Mayor." - Uh, yes. I do know there's a difference. My point was the mayor is the father of a young male minority, and that discussion is an unfortunately necessary part of learning to navigate NYC. The outrage at it is pathetic.

Also, running down the NYPD?

You have NYPD unions and right-wing pundits and politicians blaming DeBlasio and as hoyainspirit pointed out, it's just plain old made up. The mayor hasn't been an obsequious defender of everything the NYPD touches, and now they're throwing a temper tantrum.

[tashoya]

Clearly things need to drastically change. In NY and elsewhere. However, as the mayor, he should have made the distinction between the majority of good cops and the minority of horrendous ones. That's what I meant by "throwing under the bus" as opposed to how it was used by union members. It's a good thing to address and frame the issue properly. That's not to say that he shouldn't mention the conversations he's had with his son out of necessity because, at a glance, one can't tell the good from the bad. By the same token, he should have also mentioned that he had that conversation out of caution and necessity and not because his son has ever had an issue with the police. I (obviously) don't know whether his son has ever had a run-in of any sort but, if he hasn't, that's important information as well. It's a safety issue as well. A really sad one. But, if whatever the mayor has told his son has kept his son from having an issue with the police, shouldn't that be part of the conversation as well? It's not like weeding out of racist cops is a quick fix type thing. In the interim, any information on how to keep the people most affected safer is good information to disseminate.

[TC]

Dec 31, 2014 21:42:58 GMT -5 tashoya said:

Clearly things need to drastically change. In NY and elsewhere. However, as the mayor, he should have made the distinction between the majority of good cops and the minority of horrendous ones.

When has this been about "good cops" vs. "bad cops" or "racist cops" rather than outcomes, accountability, and justice? In Ferguson and the Garner case, is your verdict that these were bad cops or that the cops were racists? Amadou Diallo? John Crawford? The 12 year old in Cleveland?

That's not to say that he shouldn't mention the conversations he's had with his son out of necessity because, at a glance, one can't tell the good from the bad. By the same token, he should have also mentioned that he had that conversation out of caution and necessity and not because his son has ever had an issue with the police.

If you read or listen to what he actually said, he did.

[tashoya]

Dec 31, 2014 22:48:42 GMT -5 TC said:

Dec 31, 2014 21:42:58 GMT -5 tashoya said:

Clearly things need to drastically change. In NY and elsewhere. However, as the mayor, he should have made the distinction between the majority of good cops and the minority of horrendous ones.

When has this been about "good cops" vs. "bad cops" or "racist cops" rather than outcomes, accountability, and justice? In Ferguson and the Garner case, is your verdict that these were bad cops or that the cops were racists? Amadou Diallo? John Crawford? The 12 year old in Cleveland?

That's not to say that he shouldn't mention the conversations he's had with his son out of necessity because, at a glance, one can't tell the good from the bad. By the same token, he should have also mentioned that he had that conversation out of caution and necessity and not because his son has ever had an issue with the police.

If you read or listen to what he actually said, he did.

I may be wrong but, as far as I know, the mayor never said that his son hasn't had an issue with the police. The only point I was trying to make is that, as mayor of a major city, it's probably not a good idea to paint the entire police force as racist. It's both not true and also doesn't shine a light on those that actually are racist. If he's willing to call people out, I'm fine with that. But a boss of an organization that, hopefully, wants to be effective shouldn't call out the whole organization if the whole organization isn't a problem.

[DoctorHoya]

Dec 31, 2014 23:15:45 GMT -5 tashoya said:

Dec 31, 2014 22:48:42 GMT -5 TC said:

When has this been about "good cops" vs. "bad cops" or "racist cops" rather than outcomes, accountability, and justice? In Ferguson and the Garner case, is your verdict that these were bad cops or that the cops were racists? Amadou Diallo? John Crawford? The 12 year old in Cleveland?

If you read or listen to what he actually said, he did.

I may be wrong but, as far as I know, the mayor never said that his son hasn't had an issue with the police. The only point I was trying to make is that, as mayor of a major city, it's probably not a good idea to paint the entire police force as racist. It's both not true and also doesn't shine a light on those that actually are racist. If he's willing to call people out, I'm fine with that. But a boss of an organization that, hopefully, wants to be effective shouldn't call out the whole organization if the whole organization isn't a problem.

II completely agree with you.

[TC]

Dec 31, 2014 23:15:45 GMT -5 tashoya said:

I may be wrong but, as far as I know, the mayor never said that his son hasn't had an issue with the police.

"Because Chirlane and I have had to talk to Dante for years about the dangers that he may face. A good young man, law-abiding young man who would never think to do anything wrong. And yet, because of a history that still hangs over us, the dangers he may face, we've had to literally train him—as families have all over this city for decades—in how to take special care in any encounter he has with the police officers who are there to protect him."

The only point I was trying to make is that, as mayor of a major city, it's probably not a good idea to paint the entire police force as racist.

Except he did not do that. Again, this is not about "good cops" vs. "bad cops" or "racist cops" but very stark and real differences in outcomes.

[tashoya]

Dec 31, 2014 23:41:18 GMT -5 TC said:

Dec 31, 2014 23:15:45 GMT -5 tashoya said:

I may be wrong but, as far as I know, the mayor never said that his son hasn't had an issue with the police.

"Because Chirlane and I have had to talk to Dante for years about the dangers that he may face. A good young man, law-abiding young man who would never think to do anything wrong. And yet, because of a history that still hangs over us, the dangers he may face, we've had to literally train him—as families have all over this city for decades—in how to take special care in any encounter he has with the police officers who are there to protect him."

The only point I was trying to make is that, as mayor of a major city, it's probably not a good idea to paint the entire police force as racist.

Except he did not do that. Again, this is not about "good cops" vs. "bad cops" or "racist cops" but very stark and real differences in outcomes.

I disagree that there isn't a good cop vs. bad cop component. There is a mistrust (granted, one born out of experience) between segments of the population and the cops that can influence in person encounters with police and can also keep people from calling for police assistance when it's needed. I think I'm getting your points but, TBH, this is one of the situations in which I'm aware that I'm not expressing what I mean to say particularly well and am wishing that we were sitting down and having a conversation because I know I'm not completely understanding your thoughts either.