rambis
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Post by rambis on Aug 7, 2014 12:46:54 GMT -5
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Aug 7, 2014 13:24:28 GMT -5
I agree.
I have some guesses how this well affect college football, and I am not too happy about it.
I don't quite understand how this might affect basketball.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Aug 7, 2014 13:52:19 GMT -5
So I'm the ACC and I want to get better in football, I pass a rule saying that transfers in from other conferences don't have to sit out a year before playing in the ACC.
I'm the SEC, I pass a rule saying that SEC schools are allowed to pay their players up to 20% more than they would be paid at any other non-conference school.
I'm the Big 5 conference commissioners, I get together and pass a rule saying our end of year championship tournaments are for the Big 5 schools only.
This is an arms race that will further separate the haves from the have nots. And Georgetown is a have not. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose every verbal commitment or more at this point.
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rambis
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Post by rambis on Aug 7, 2014 14:21:50 GMT -5
Whoa Dhall!! I expect potential recruiting and benefits provisions to help other schools lure recruits, but we are still Big Man U! A Georgetown basketball education helps players get to the League and that's what matters to many top high school recruits.
If this autonomy vote passes, individual conferences could have new rules in place as early as January 1, 2015. A good fall can help us with our current commitments and solidify our standing for future recruits. The 2014 and 2015 classes look great and should reinforce Georgetown's standing as an elite basketball power.
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that the Big Five Conferences will be concerned about managing this from a public relations perspective to keep Congress and regulators out of the picture. If the conferences adopt aggressive changes regarding limits to mandatory hours and compensation, then they will find it much more difficult to prevail in a case like Northwestern faced earlier.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 7, 2014 14:27:56 GMT -5
So I'm the ACC and I want to get better in football, I pass a rule saying that transfers in from other conferences don't have to sit out a year before playing in the ACC. I'm the SEC, I pass a rule saying that SEC schools are allowed to pay their players up to 20% more than they would be paid at any other non-conference school. I'm the Big 5 conference commissioners, I get together and pass a rule saying our end of year championship tournaments are for the Big 5 schools only. This is an arms race that will further separate the haves from the have nots. And Georgetown is a have not. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose every verbal commitment or more at this point. As of now, a lot of those scenarios you suggest reportedly can’t happen under this new agreement : (deciding who will play in a post season tournament, excluding others from post season tournaments, making up one’s own transfer rules, etc.). There are some restrictions still in place. (also the new rules are not set to even start until sometime next year at the earliest). And because of that there likely won’t be the votes from seventy-five schools outside the Big Five necessary to kill this decision. The “other schools” don’t want the Big Five to break apart from the rest of the NCAA and form their own association. So there is a willingness by both groups to stick together. For now at least. A couple of days ago I read a column which stressed that this was what the Big Five wanted all along; they didn’t want to break apart from the NCAA, they wanted their own separate rules instead. You can argue which scenario is actually worse I suppose. The question becomes does this apparently new setup remain or will it quickly be pushed aside as the Big Five start coming up with more demands? And what are the challenges ahead? If the schools can go ahead and pay their football and basketball players a bit of a stipend does that include all the other student athletes outside of the non-revenue sports? What about federal laws like Title IX? Of course overall none of this is great for any of the schools outside the Big Five but the sport it really makes an impact on is football. And let’s be real…that was the sport that the framers of this new deal were thinking about in the first place. But will the Big Five power conferences bite off more than they can chew, will the arms race go too far, will these schools be able to afford all of this and will it lead to a backlash amongst the millions of fans and alums of schools left out in the cold? As for Georgetown or more specifically the Big East, I think as long as there is a contract with FOX Sports the BE programs could afford such stipends considering it will only be for the basketball teams (will the women’s teams be included?) and therefore a much smaller number of athletes to deal with. I think the BE as a conference could even pay for some of the trips by family members in post season games. However will the NCAA allow conferences outside the Big Five to rewrite the rules in their favor or will they have to stick to the rules as applied to them now?
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Aug 7, 2014 14:48:04 GMT -5
So I'm the ACC and I want to get better in football, I pass a rule saying that transfers in from other conferences don't have to sit out a year before playing in the ACC. I'm the SEC, I pass a rule saying that SEC schools are allowed to pay their players up to 20% more than they would be paid at any other non-conference school. I'm the Big 5 conference commissioners, I get together and pass a rule saying our end of year championship tournaments are for the Big 5 schools only. This is an arms race that will further separate the haves from the have nots. And Georgetown is a have not. I wouldn't be surprised if we lose every verbal commitment or more at this point. As of now, a lot of those scenarios you suggest reportedly can’t happen under this new agreement : (deciding who will play in a post season tournament, excluding others from post season tournaments, making up one’s own transfer rules, etc.). There are some restrictions still in place. (also the new rules are not set to even start until sometime next year at the earliest). And because of that there likely won’t be the votes from seventy-five schools outside the Big Five necessary to kill this decision. The “other schools” don’t want the Big Five to break apart from the rest of the NCAA and form their own association. So there is a willingness by both groups to stick together. For now at least. A couple of days ago I read a column which stressed that this was what the Big Five wanted all along; they didn’t want to break apart from the NCAA, they wanted their own separate rules instead. You can argue which scenario is actually worse I suppose. The question becomes does this apparently new setup remain or will it quickly be pushed aside as the Big Five start coming up with more demands? And what are the challenges ahead? If the schools can go ahead and pay their football and basketball players a bit of a stipend does that include all the other student athletes outside of the non-revenue sports? What about federal laws like Title IX? Of course overall none of this is great for any of the schools outside the Big Five but the sport it really makes an impact on is football. And let’s be real…that was the sport that the framers of this new deal were thinking about in the first place. But will the Big Five power conferences bite off more than they can chew, will the arms race go too far, will these schools be able to afford all of this and will it lead to a backlash amongst the millions of fans and alums of schools left out in the cold? As for Georgetown or more specifically the Big East, I think as long as there is a contract with FOX Sports the BE programs could afford such stipends considering it will only be for the basketball teams (will the women’s teams be included?) and therefore a much smaller number of athletes to deal with. I think the BE as a conference could even pay for some of the trips by family members in post season games. However will the NCAA allow conferences outside the Big Five to rewrite the rules in their favor or will they have to stick to the rules as applied to them now? That's a lot more thought out than my knee-jerk post - thanks. Though there are some real similarities to the conference alignment we've already seen. Everyone will do what's best for themselves of course. The "association" is weakened, and then potentially dissolved, whenever powerful members decide it no longer suits their needs. Good to know that at least we have another year before it really has an impact.
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Post by centercourt400s on Aug 7, 2014 15:03:54 GMT -5
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 7, 2014 15:22:10 GMT -5
So, this is not like rewriting the 10 Commandants for the Big 5? Let's eliminate, thou shalt not steal. Football will be eliminated in a few years, if they can't figure out the concussion problem
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 7, 2014 15:41:21 GMT -5
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Aug 7, 2014 18:57:01 GMT -5
As others have said, this deal is really driven by football. Interestingly, the number of programs who have really top basketball programs AND football is actually fairly small. There are definitely some (for example, many of the Big 10 schools), but there are also a lot of bad basketball teams in the Big 5.
These are some KenPom ratings from 2014 (my parameters are schools outside the top 75):
SEC: Missouri: 78 Mississippi: 84 Alabama: 92 Vanderbilt: 112 South Carolina: 114 Texas A&M: 121 Auburn: 129 Mississippi State: 208
ACC:
Notre Dame: 99 Georgia Tech: 109 Wake Forest: 118 Boston College: 138 Virginia Tech: 192
Big 10: Penn State: 82 Purdue: 97 Northwestern: 131
Big 12: Texas Tech: 83 TCU: 234
Pac 12: Washington: 95 Oregon State: 110 USC: 163 Washington St.: 183
That's 22 schools from the Big 5 that did not finish in the top 75 last year. That's a fairly significant percentage, and I think it indicates that there is still room for programs outside the Big 5 to land top basketball talent. (Before anybody says it, I know some programs on this list, like Virginia Tech and Notre Dame might get better this year, but that would likely mean somebody else falls into the top 75 that was not last year).
The fact is that recruits want to play on winning teams. We do not routinely lose recruits to the likes of Washington State, Mississippi State, Oregon State, etc. For now, I think there's really no reason to think that landscape will change significantly, especially if Georgetown offers recruits the same benefits offered by Big 5 schools.
One intrinsic factor in our favor is many areas (like the South) that have great football schools and traditions, do not have strong basketball traditions. While some may improve with time, I think it is far too premature to be calling for the death of the non-Big 5 basketball programs. Granted, it could happen gradually over time, but I think for now we will be fine.
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Post by daymondmyles on Aug 7, 2014 21:23:34 GMT -5
And I don't think each "Big 5" conference will necessarily have its own rules. I believe each rule change will require some combination of approval from the 80 member panel plus a majority of the Big 5 conferences.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Aug 7, 2014 23:48:55 GMT -5
What's stopping the P5, who have all the basketball bluebloods and more, from saying our schools will participate in our end of the season tourney? Why would they want to allow the NCAA to collect money from their teams?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 8, 2014 1:27:06 GMT -5
What's stopping them? Nothing. But they will have to break off from the NCAA and create their own thing. And then they will have to put together a basketball tourney in which there is no drama regarding who gets in because it will be the same schools from those same conferences year after year. March Madness as we know it will be done and the public really won't like that. That could possibly even cause Congress to step in, prompted by Congress members of states whose schools are now out of the equation because of The Big Five. Besides who wants to see Nebraska and Northwestern in the NCAA tourney over the likes of Gonzaga, Memphis, Georgetown, Villanova, Harvard, etc? Not only are you getting rid of many schools with the greatest basketball traditions you would be doing away with the charm of the tourney (the small schools that make it in as low seeds) which draw fans and viewers in. The Big Five hasn't broken away because they don't want that, not at this time. Football is what they care about most and that is where they will try their hand at exclusion. Btw what happens to UConn if it doesn't get added to one of these big conferences? Is the football program and its cost even still worth it? If the Catholic schools had stuck with the Big East would the BE have been included in a Big Six or was that BE always going to be looking on from the outside? If it is the latter than the contract with FOX came at the knick of time. www.northjersey.com/sports/seton-hall-ad-says-big-east-won-t-be-left-behind-by-ncaa-power-vote-1.1064150?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.coWhile athletes won’t be paid to play necessarily, they will be able to receive more scholarship money that would help cover the full cost of attending college beyond tuition, books and room and board. It will be a cost-of-attendance stipend.
Other conferences now have the option to offer the same thing to student-athletes, although they will not be required to. If the Big East decides not to opt in, it could put a school such as Seton Hall at a recruiting disadvantage in pursuing men’s basketball players, especially when rival Rutgers now is part of the Big Ten, one of the breakaway conferences.
But that won’t be the case, according to sources at Seton Hall. The Big East has the wherewithal because it signed a 12-year rights deal with Fox Sports in March 2013. The entire contract reportedly is worth over $500 million, and Fox certainly doesn’t want the Big East’s basketball product to become second-rate
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Aug 8, 2014 7:09:46 GMT -5
Change was inevitable--the NCAA overlords have screwed up the current system. With or without the Big 5 conferences there was going to be substantial changes. Hopefully, the change is embraced by the Big East and it opts in to most or all of the "new rules" to stay competitive. In reality, many of the Big 5 basketball schools need the "outsiders" to remain strong and relevant. Syracuse has committed to renew rivalries with Nova, St. Johns and the Hoyas. There is no question that Fox and others have a stake in the current structure of the NCAA basketball tournament.
If the Big East was attempting to compete in football this might prove fatal, but for schools in the Big East to match the ACC schools with respect to the financial benefits of 13 basketball players (26 if you count the women)should not be difficult. Yes, questions remain as to whether you can have one set of rules for basketball and another for all other sports, but those questions will impact all schools and not just the smaller ones.
The real losers in this process are the schools in the AAC and the Mountain West, who are not far behind many counterparts in the so-called Big 5 in quality of football programs and the equal or superior of many of these schools in basketball. These conferences in particular will simply not have the resources to compete financially. How does a public school like Boise State, SDSU, UNLV, UConn or Cincinati compete for football recruits without the financial resources of the Big 5 conferences. The field in football will defintely not be level.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 8, 2014 8:41:25 GMT -5
Change was inevitable--the NCAA overlords have screwed up the current system. NCAA overlords? That is some ESPN-spin there, friend. The schools make up the NCAA and in truth run the NCAA. The NCAA was never some independent enforcement branch put forth by outside forces like the government. It has been the schools pulling the NCAA strings all along, especially and increasingly those that now make up the big five power conferences. Yet these same folks kept painting themselves as victims to some imaginary, stubborn NCAA forces of evil who held them back. This is some diabolical Palpatine stuff going on here.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Aug 8, 2014 9:16:27 GMT -5
Just a poor choice of phrase MCI. I know who runs the NCAA and have dealt with them more than once through my legal practice. The reality is that while the schools "run" the organization in terms of establishing policy guidelines, like any other bureaucratic entity there is a staff charged with implementing the policy. It is at both the policy level and the staff level that the inconsistencies have arisen and the breakdown often occurs.
So while I confess to a moment of overdramatization, I still believe that the NCAA has become an out of touch organization which has largely contributed to the circumstances that exist today. I am not an advocate for tearing anything down or ruining college sports. To the contrary, I think that the system is broken and unfortunately the large football schools are seizing the opportunity to further enhance their financial position at the expense of everyone else. I simply hope that Georgetown and others jump on this train before it leaves the station and maintain their recruiting competitiveness.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Aug 8, 2014 9:18:46 GMT -5
What's stopping them? Nothing. But they will have to break off from the NCAA and create their own thing. And then they will have to put together a basketball tourney in which there is no drama regarding who gets in because it will be the same schools from those same conferences year after year. March Madness as we know it will be done and the public really won't like that. That could possibly even cause Congress to step in, prompted by Congress members of states whose schools are now out of the equation because of The Big Five. Besides who wants to see Nebraska and Northwestern in the NCAA tourney over the likes of Gonzaga, Memphis, Georgetown, Villanova, Harvard, etc? Not only are you getting rid of many schools with the greatest basketball traditions you would be doing away with the charm of the tourney (the small schools that make it in as low seeds) which draw fans and viewers in. The Big Five hasn't broken away because they don't want that, not at this time. Football is what they care about most and that is where they will try their hand at exclusion. I think this is right. One of the reasons why the NCAA Tournament is so popular is the fact that anybody can we any game on any day (we know that better than most). Every March, you see stories about the "Cinderella" teams that manage to overcome odds to succeed in the tournament. That's really what drives the interest of non-basketball fans, especially the first weekend. I think a Big 5 tournament would likely get much attention and decent viewership, but I do not think it would carry the same cachet that the NCAA tournament has. Another thing to keep in mind: the NCAA tournament is an extremely valuable property for television. While a replacement Big 5 tournament would probably get decent viewership, I think the current version of the tournament is far more valuable to media, which is a reason it probably will not disappear anytime soon.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 8, 2014 10:37:29 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that the Big Five Conferences will be concerned about managing this from a public relations perspective to keep Congress and regulators out of the picture. Good luck keeping Senators from CT out of this. Does this mean we can shutter our football program in the near future and still play Big East basketball?
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Aug 8, 2014 11:39:00 GMT -5
Disagree MCI. It always boils down to money and who controls it. With a tv contract of close to a billion dollars, why wouldn't the P5 ( down the road ) start their own post season tourney? Do people want to see the Davidsons and GC? Sure. But more folks want to watch Uk, Ku and UNC.
Winter is coming.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Aug 8, 2014 12:33:21 GMT -5
If the top team in the country is not in the P5, what would their tournament be crowning?
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