Just Cos
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Post by Just Cos on Jul 27, 2014 19:07:27 GMT -5
I think Jabril is a good example of a player III has had that didn't have a strong three point shot and drove it on a regular basis. As his shot improved we saw him shoot more at the end of last season. I don't think III is against letting players play their style but I get your point that we don't see shooters dramatically improve their dribble drive penetration under III.
I'm looking forward to the offseason when MCI asks us to slow down the offense.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jul 27, 2014 19:28:53 GMT -5
I guess the difference would be that the above players transferred and played out their careers at other colleges. Whittington went straight from GU to D League.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 27, 2014 20:55:03 GMT -5
I guess the difference would be that the above players transferred and played out their careers at other colleges. Whittington went straight from GU to D League. Technically, he transferred but didn't enroll. I don't know if that actually counts as a transfer but it should certainly count as a guy that left for a different school.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 27, 2014 21:35:18 GMT -5
I think Jabril is a good example of a player III has had that didn't have a strong three point shot and drove it on a regular basis. Hmmm. Nice try. The truth is there hasn't been one single Hoya that has driven the ball consistently and that includes Jabril. If you want to take an opposing view then that is fine, but don't resort to lies or half-truths. We can go whole games in which Jabril doesn't dribble drive to the hoop in order to score. He picked it up on that front a little after he came back from his injury but even then it wasn't as if he ever came close to putting constant pressure on any defenses this way. The only guy that came close to driving on a somewhat regular basis was Freeman but even he didn't do so nearly enough. If Peak made this as his primary weapon of attack he would be the first in the III era to do so. We can argue whether such a style of attack is a good thing, but it would be revisionist to even suggest we have seen such an experiment before during III's time as coach.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 27, 2014 21:48:45 GMT -5
To me the team needs competent front court play more than it needs an aggressive sg/sf type.. All due respect to Nate, Mikael & Moses but they were awful last season.. Hopefully Copeland can provide the much needed stability in the front court.. LJ may very well end up scoring more points, having more highlights than Ike but the bottom line is JT3's offense doesn't run well without solid play from it's front-court.. So what you're saying is that the team's lineup is held hostage by what you perceive is an unmovable equation in III's system. And that equation is basically that, what, a frontcourt player must have the offense run through him and thereby bring stability to that offense? Who needs aggressive guards or even swing forwards when what is valued instead is the often-repeated "Jeff Green Type"? And this fanbase wonders why this program can't land elite guards. In the future people should top bemoaning III's lack of success at bringing in such elite players when deep down many of you have no use for such guys in the first place. Now with that bit of snark out the way my question is why would you assume Copeland wouldn't be in the starting lineup in the first place even with Peak slotted in at, say, SF? With so many of you dismissing Hopkins as terrible I would have figured you guys would have Copeland slotted in as the staring PF anyway. Unless of course you envision Copeland at that SF spot. And if that is the case Copeland, while skilled, has not proven at all that he is good enough to be effective at that position considering he has apparently been playing PF in high school.In other words Peak may be at this stage much closer to being an effective college swing than Copeland.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 27, 2014 21:54:09 GMT -5
Here's a question after reading reports from Casual that G. Whittington keeps showing up for these Kenner games....if Whittington makes it one day to the NBA (I know, I know) would his jersey hang on the wall? Ask Anthony Jones, Anthony Tucker, John Turner, and Vernon Macklin about that one... Of course all three actually suited up and played for other colleges after leaving Gtown which last time I checked is not the case for Whittington.
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Post by bicentennial on Jul 27, 2014 22:00:49 GMT -5
I love the fact during Kenner people are debating who will be the three guard/forward and discussing not one but 2 freshman. Still think our biggest hole may be Center. Think we have 1-4 reasonably covered for next year. Would love to not have to have a 4 play the 5.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jul 27, 2014 22:14:58 GMT -5
I love the fact during Kenner people are debating who will be the three guard/forward and discussing not one but 2 freshman. Still think our biggest hole may be Center. Think we have 1-4 reasonably covered for next year. Would love to not have to have a 4 play the 5. If Josh Smith doesn't come back, we will have a hole at center. The difference is that this year, there are several people who are much better on offense than Hopkins and Hayes, whereas last year there generally was not. This year, one could arguably say that DSR, Peak, Copeland, White, Campbell, Bowen, and Cameron will be better than Hopkins and Hayes. The key for Hopkins is to play differently, and use less possessions. If he can play good defense, not foul, and otherwise stay out of the way, we will be fine. We may not have a back to the basket post player who can score like Smith, but it would be serviceable. Remember, Porter played with the same awful backcourt we had last year, but it didn't seem as bad because Porter masked it. I think our influx of depth can aid in doing the same thing this year, even if we do not have Smith, and there's always the (small) possibility Hayes could make a sizeable jump.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 27, 2014 22:19:22 GMT -5
I think Jabril is a good example of a player III has had that didn't have a strong three point shot and drove it on a regular basis. Hmmm. Nice try. The truth is there hasn't been one single Hoya that has driven the ball consistently and that includes Jabril. If you want to take an opposing view then that is fine, but don't resort to lies or half-truths. We can go whole games in which Jabril doesn't dribble drive to the hoop in order to score. He picked it up on that front a little after he came back from his injury but even then it wasn't as if he ever came close to putting constant pressure on any defenses this way. The only guy that came close to driving on a somewhat regular basis was Freeman but even he didn't do so nearly enough. If Peak made this as his primary weapon of attack he would be the first in the III era to do so. We can argue whether such a style of attack is a good thing, but it would be revisionist to even suggest we have seen such an experiment before during III's time as coach. Chris Wright. The "wrecking ball" moniker was well earned. That said, it doesn't have to happen every game to have it be true. Markel pushed a bunch when he shouldn't have as well. It's not that we haven't had players doing that. It's that we've had players that have tried that and not been great at taking guys off the dribble. Jabril isn't in the same category but he's not as good off the dribble as Markel mostly because he doesn't have the floater.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 27, 2014 22:32:39 GMT -5
To me the team needs competent front court play more than it needs an aggressive sg/sf type.. All due respect to Nate, Mikael & Moses but they were awful last season.. Hopefully Copeland can provide the much needed stability in the front court.. LJ may very well end up scoring more points, having more highlights than Ike but the bottom line is JT3's offense doesn't run well without solid play from it's front-court.. So what you're saying is that the team's lineup is held hostage by what you perceive is an unmovable equation in III's system. And that equation is basically that, what, a frontcourt player must have the offense run through him and thereby bring stability to that offense? Who needs aggressive guards or even swing forwards when what is valued instead is the often-repeated "Jeff Green Type"? And this fanbase wonders why this program can't land elite guards. In the future people should top bemoaning III's lack of success at bringing in such elite players when deep down many of you have no use for such guys in the first place. Now with that bit of snark out the way my question is why would you assume Copeland wouldn't be in the starting lineup in the first place even with Peak slotted in at, say, SF? With so many of you dismissing Hopkins as terrible I would have figured you guys would have Copeland slotted in as the staring PF anyway. Unless of course you envision Copeland at that SF spot. And if that is the case Copeland, while skilled, has not proven at all that he is good enough to be effective at that position considering he has apparently been playing PF in high school.In other words Peak may be at this stage much closer to being an effective college swing than Copeland. It doesn't have to be a forward. It has to be a guy that the D will collapse on and double because he can pass or score. It's more helpful if he's a 4 or 5 but he doesn't have to be. Need that spacing. To call it snark was being kind to yourself. And no one in the fanbase wonders why we can't land elite guards. We know why. We just don't, necessarily, agree with it. It's a catch 22. An elite guard would thrive in our offense as Jeff Green did. It just hasn't happened so it's hard to sell.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jul 27, 2014 22:38:21 GMT -5
I love the fact during Kenner people are debating who will be the three guard/forward and discussing not one but 2 freshman. Still think our biggest hole may be Center. Think we have 1-4 reasonably covered for next year. Would love to not have to have a 4 play the 5. If Josh Smith doesn't come back, we will have a hole at center. The difference is that this year, there are several people who are much better on offense than Hopkins and Hayes, whereas last year there generally was not. This year, one could arguably say that DSR, Peak, Copeland, White, Campbell, Bowen, and Cameron will be better than Hopkins and Hayes. The key for Hopkins is to play differently, and use less possessions. If he can play good defense, not foul, and otherwise stay out of the way, we will be fine. We may not have a back to the basket post player who can score like Smith, but it would be serviceable. Remember, Porter played with the same awful backcourt we had last year, but it didn't seem as bad because Porter masked it. I think our influx of depth can aid in doing the same thing this year, even if we do not have Smith, and there's always the (small) possibility Hayes could make a sizeable jump. What is the reasoning behind thinking Joshua won't come back outside of him not participating in Kenner?
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jul 27, 2014 22:46:26 GMT -5
To me the team needs competent front court play more than it needs an aggressive sg/sf type.. All due respect to Nate, Mikael & Moses but they were awful last season.. Hopefully Copeland can provide the much needed stability in the front court.. LJ may very well end up scoring more points, having more highlights than Ike but the bottom line is JT3's offense doesn't run well without solid play from it's front-court.. So what you're saying is that the team's lineup is held hostage by what you perceive is an unmovable equation in III's system. And that equation is basically that, what, a frontcourt player must have the offense run through him and thereby bring stability to that offense? Who needs aggressive guards or even swing forwards when what is valued instead is the often-repeated "Jeff Green Type"? And this fanbase wonders why this program can't land elite guards. In the future people should top bemoaning III's lack of success at bringing in such elite players when deep down many of you have no use for such guys in the first place. Now with that bit of snark out the way my question is why would you assume Copeland wouldn't be in the starting lineup in the first place even with Peak slotted in at, say, SF? With so many of you dismissing Hopkins as terrible I would have figured you guys would have Copeland slotted in as the staring PF anyway. Unless of course you envision Copeland at that SF spot. And if that is the case Copeland, while skilled, has not proven at all that he is good enough to be effective at that position considering he has apparently been playing PF in high school.In other words Peak may be at this stage much closer to being an effective college swing than Copeland. My response was in reference to you questioning why folks over at Casual Hoya voted that Copeland would have a bigger impact this season than LJ.. Did you forget that? The gap between LJ, Jabril & Bowen is smaller than the gap between Copeland, Mikael & Cameron.. That's even if you want to count Cameron as a 4.. I never stated the offense had to run thru Ike or anyone in the front court, I never stated that Copeland wouldn't start or what his sf skills are.. Man can you spin it... Again, I was only commenting on why folks think Copeland may have a bigger impact than LJ this season
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Jul 27, 2014 23:04:05 GMT -5
I think Jabril is a good example of a player III has had that didn't have a strong three point shot and drove it on a regular basis. Hmmm. Nice try. The truth is there hasn't been one single Hoya that has driven the ball consistently and that includes Jabril. If you want to take an opposing view then that is fine, but don't resort to lies or half-truths. We can go whole games in which Jabril doesn't dribble drive to the hoop in order to score. He picked it up on that front a little after he came back from his injury but even then it wasn't as if he ever came close to putting constant pressure on any defenses this way. The only guy that came close to driving on a somewhat regular basis was Freeman but even he didn't do so nearly enough. If Peak made this as his primary weapon of attack he would be the first in the III era to do so. We can argue whether such a style of attack is a good thing, but it would be revisionist to even suggest we have seen such an experiment before during III's time as coach. Chris Wright took it to the hole on a consistent basis....albeit not always successfully.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jul 27, 2014 23:15:26 GMT -5
I love the fact during Kenner people are debating who will be the three guard/forward and discussing not one but 2 freshman. Still think our biggest hole may be Center. Think we have 1-4 reasonably covered for next year. Would love to not have to have a 4 play the 5. Speaking about centers, what is going on with Josh?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 1:31:06 GMT -5
Because I’ve watched him play many times and against various competition.. I’m not exactly a guy who throws shade on guys, I just give my honest opinion based on what I’ve seen. LJ Peak is an athletic freak 6’5 with a College Body. Halfcourt or Full Court nobody in SC could stop that kid, it means squat. He won’t be facing that level of comp this year. With all due respect that's a tired argument. Ewing was doing damage in Massachusetts and folks could have said the same thing : he won't be facing that level of comp when he goes to college. Iverson was dominating the Chesapeake and the same caution to the wind could have been made about him (and was): he won't be facing that competition when he reached college. n fact this argument can be made about every great player in the history of basketball: the competition they faced in college would be much tougher than the one they faced in college and the competition they squared off against in the NBA was on a much higher level than what they faced as a college athlete. And yet the great ones adjust and match that higher challenge anyway. Can't say if Peak is destined for greatness but cam't say he isn't either. So let us see how he adjusts (if he can) rather than throw out all he has been able to do at every level so far (including KL play). And lets us be fair...if he had laid an egg during his senior year of play and was laying an egg in the KL it is doubtful many would be saying "well, that doesn't really mean anything". But we get away with such comments if a kid is dominating his competition. Ah, but you see III may try to turn a non-jumpshooter into a shooter but he NEVER seems to try to make jumpshooters into drivers. Or at least he doesn't seem to make them add the driving ability to their overall game. That's the difference. I don't mind if III makes Peak work hard on his jumpshot, I've been clear about that. But I don't want him doing so at the expense of his ability to drive and score. Why must he come off the bench to do that? And why would the system suddenly change for the Hoyas for a guy coming off the bench anyway? Suddenly the style is supposed to change just because Peak comes in as the sixth man? In my opinion if it isn't going to be encouraged if he is a starter I doubt his style would be encouraged if he enters the game as a substitute. There has to be a consistency especially if III keeps using a short bench. Because if III uses a short bench you may get a situation in which Peak substitutes for one starter but is nonetheless playing with the remaining four starters who are still on the court. Are those four other guys supposed to suddenly alter their approach merely as the result of Mr. Peak checking into the game? That (faulty) point of view apparently gave us three plus years of Nate Lubick starting. Hollis is not Kobe or Wade that's for sure. But he is showing the ability to drive to the hole regularly and using his athleticism to finish. It is not his main weapon of choice nor should it be. But it is one he is capable of attempting multiple times in a game. And if he can drive to the hole against NBA level players then he should have been doing it a lot more against the likes of those on the rosters of teams like Rutgers, seton Hall, Notre Dame, American University, etc. It is something he appears to be working on now when truthfully speaking Hoya coaches should have had him work on that day in and day out. You and I both know that a common instruction in basketball is that if your shot isn't falling don't keep settling for jumpers, get to the hoop. It may not be in the cards for Reggie Cameron to acquire this ability but Hollis surely had enough physical tools to work on that part of his game while at Gtown for three years. Who was the stud player behind Lubick that should have been starting instead of him? That Faulty point of view is used by almost every coach at every level.. So hey it is what it is…Sefalosha isn’t/wasn’t better than James Harden, Manu’s been coming off the bench for years. A Balanced team needs scoring of the bench doesn’t mean that when the game is on the line said player won’t be in the game. I’d put him in a role similar to them or similar to the role DSR played his Freshman year. Plenty of shots available for him in that role. No offense but doubtful you can convince me to drool over LJ’s Kenner League Performances… It’s nice but I’m not going to proclaim he should be a starter or he’s the second coming of such and such. But hey if he scores 30 his first game and we win? Cool! I want him to do well
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 1:38:35 GMT -5
So what you're saying is that the team's lineup is held hostage by what you perceive is an unmovable equation in III's system. And that equation is basically that, what, a frontcourt player must have the offense run through him and thereby bring stability to that offense? Who needs aggressive guards or even swing forwards when what is valued instead is the often-repeated "Jeff Green Type"? And this fanbase wonders why this program can't land elite guards. In the future people should top bemoaning III's lack of success at bringing in such elite players when deep down many of you have no use for such guys in the first place. Now with that bit of snark out the way my question is why would you assume Copeland wouldn't be in the starting lineup in the first place even with Peak slotted in at, say, SF? With so many of you dismissing Hopkins as terrible I would have figured you guys would have Copeland slotted in as the staring PF anyway. Unless of course you envision Copeland at that SF spot. And if that is the case Copeland, while skilled, has not proven at all that he is good enough to be effective at that position considering he has apparently been playing PF in high school.In other words Peak may be at this stage much closer to being an effective college swing than Copeland. My response was in reference to you questioning why folks over at Casual Hoya voted that Copeland would have a bigger impact this season than LJ.. Did you forget that? The gap between LJ, Jabril & Bowen is smaller than the gap between Copeland, Mikael & Cameron.. That's even if you want to count Cameron as a 4.. I never stated the offense had to run thru Ike or anyone in the front court, I never stated that Copeland wouldn't start or what his sf skills are.. Man can you spin it... Again, I was only commenting on why folks think Copeland may have a bigger impact than LJ this season Plus Copeland got all the hype and the 5star labeling by the recruiting services. For a lot of fans who don’t live breathe and sleep this stuff that’s all they know… No reason to read much into that at all...
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Jul 28, 2014 6:02:04 GMT -5
We have had a bunch of players who drove to the basket against man defense. That is why no one plays man against us.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jul 28, 2014 6:08:58 GMT -5
What is the reasoning behind thinking Joshua won't come back outside of him not participating in Kenner? That's pretty much it. That's likely why the post I was responding to said we likely have the biggest hole at center. To me, for 2014-2015, it's pretty clear. If we have Smith, we likely have a solid post player who will score down low. If not, I doubt that scoring from the post will be a large component of our overall scoring because none of the other guys can do it. Also, even if Smith does play, it's doubtful he averages more than 20-25 minutes a game, so we will have somewhat of a hole there regardless. As I said, I don't think it matters all that much because we have good people to fill the other slots.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 28, 2014 6:53:52 GMT -5
We have had a bunch of players who drove to the basket against man defense. That is why no one plays man against us. Yeah I don't think our dribble penetration is the reason teams don't play man against us....
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jul 28, 2014 7:51:07 GMT -5
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