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Post by wahoohoya on Mar 8, 2014 17:47:14 GMT -5
Why does hop think leaving his feet and flailing with no control of where he ends up is somehow better than just getting his hands up and face guarding a perimeter shooter? Should only have to get told that once or get embarrassed by a 3 shot foul once. To see him make that mistake over and over means he doesn't care to listen. I have supported Nate on this board countless times but will not be doing that anymore. His downward spiral in the past 4 games is as unfathamably pathetic as his development over the past 4 years. Get him out of here. Our players demonstrate an astounding lack of basketball fundamentals. Coaching staff needs to share blame. I wouldn't be surprised if JT3 devotes 99% of practice time to team offense and defensive schemes while ignoring basic individual player fundamentals. Seriously - this is simply a poorly coached team. Not the most talented, obviously, but talented enough to be much better than what they showed this season.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 8, 2014 17:47:45 GMT -5
The fact that he did neither argues against any playing time for him. That's short leash. But you seem to think it is a negative. When you are fighting tooth and nail for an NCAA berth, you can't afford to take a flyer on a guy in a game when he hasn't played well enough in practice to earn the coach's confidence that he can contribute.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,920
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Post by Filo on Mar 8, 2014 17:51:18 GMT -5
Why does hop think leaving his feet and flailing with no control of where he ends up is somehow better than just getting his hands up and face guarding a perimeter shooter? Should only have to get told that once or get embarrassed by a 3 shot foul once. To see him make that mistake over and over means he doesn't care to listen. I have supported Nate on this board countless times but will not be doing that anymore. His downward spiral in the past 4 games is as unfathamably pathetic as his development over the past 4 years. Get him out of here. Our players demonstrate an astounding lack of basketball fundamentals. Coaching staff needs to share blame. I wouldn't be surprised if JT3 devotes 99% of practice time to team offense and defensive schemes while ignoring basic individual player fundamentals. Seriously - this is simply a poorly coached team. Not the most talented, obviously, but talented enough to be much better than what they showed this season. I am absolutely disappointed too. But I think posts like this just don't make sense. This is the same team that also be Creighton handily, as well as some other good teams this year. Did they just get lucky in overcoming their lack of fundamentals in pulling off those wins?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 8, 2014 17:59:28 GMT -5
Why does hop think leaving his feet and flailing with no control of where he ends up is somehow better than just getting his hands up and face guarding a perimeter shooter? Should only have to get told that once or get embarrassed by a 3 shot foul once. To see him make that mistake over and over means he doesn't care to listen. I have supported Nate on this board countless times but will not be doing that anymore. His downward spiral in the past 4 games is as unfathamably pathetic as his development over the past 4 years. Get him out of here. Our players demonstrate an astounding lack of basketball fundamentals. Coaching staff needs to share blame. I wouldn't be surprised if JT3 devotes 99% of practice time to team offense and defensive schemes while ignoring basic individual player fundamentals. Seriously - this is simply a poorly coached team. Not the most talented, obviously, but talented enough to be much better than what they showed this season. Ridiculous. Every team - including GU- spends plenty of time on fundamentals, especially before the season starts. The fact that some players cannot execute those fundamentals is more on them than the staff. And when you have limited talent, you can't make plays at either end. We just have too many guys like that this year.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Mar 8, 2014 18:04:51 GMT -5
I think we are over complicating things. We lost this game when Trawick and Starks were benched with 3 fouls. We aren't built to come back from double digit deficits this year and that did us in. Pretty simple. Even this year, most of our losses can be attributed to foul trouble. It's not surprising out two best games of the season came in games called quite liberally, or the way games were called last year.
It does make me wonder if the rule change had taken place last year and games were called similarly to this year, would we have been as good? I think we would be better than this year but and not much.
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,397
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Post by drquigley on Mar 8, 2014 18:05:05 GMT -5
As I've said on many threads, this year was all about how the loss of Otto would impact us. Maybe with Whittington the loss wouldn't have hurt as much but it's obvious the loss is huge. Even worse though is how bad Cameron is (too slow, can't defend) and how Domingo scholarship was wasted. I'll give Hopkins some slack because he obviously is playing out of position. I will miss Markel but really hope next years class is strong.
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Hoyaholic
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 748
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Post by Hoyaholic on Mar 8, 2014 18:12:24 GMT -5
Speaking to the asst coach comments, just what in the world does Othella do with our bigs on a day to day basis? Is that not his primary responsibility? We have never had a frontcourt this inept, and they are equally bad on both sides of the ball (and at the line).
The real crime is that we have wasted possibly the best backcourt we have had in 30 years - which has historically been our weakness. BigManU weeps today.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 32,097
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 8, 2014 18:25:42 GMT -5
Bad defense plus no rebounding plus stupid fouls plus buckets of turnovers equal bad loss. Very simple math I was fortunate to have been able to miss watching the game due to being trapped on a flight, but from my viewing of the live play- by-play it really is this simple. Put it behind, move on and start a BET win streak.
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Post by wahoohoya on Mar 8, 2014 18:45:42 GMT -5
Our players demonstrate an astounding lack of basketball fundamentals. Coaching staff needs to share blame. I wouldn't be surprised if JT3 devotes 99% of practice time to team offense and defensive schemes while ignoring basic individual player fundamentals. Seriously - this is simply a poorly coached team. Not the most talented, obviously, but talented enough to be much better than what they showed this season. I am absolutely disappointed too. But I think posts like this just don't make sense. This is the same team that also be Creighton handily, as well as some other good teams this year. Did they just get lucky in overcoming their lack of fundamentals in pulling off those wins? The fact that we had some quality wins shows that we have talent. I admit my post was full of hyperbole, but I don't see how anybody can argue that our basic individual defensive fundamentals weren't consistently atrocious all season long. Seems like we only could compete against quality teams when refs didn't call the game so tight. Get position, put your arms up straight, and make the other team make a play. But too often we simply bailed teams out with late hacks because of what seems to me is a team philosophy to never give up a field goal without contact. I don't think it's logical to conclude our players are not coachable. The coaching adjustments were never made, and this team played head scratching basketball for large stretches of the season. I'm not calling for JT3's head or anything - just that the staff needs to share the blame.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Mar 8, 2014 18:51:35 GMT -5
I am absolutely disappointed too. But I think posts like this just don't make sense. This is the same team that also be Creighton handily, as well as some other good teams this year. Did they just get lucky in overcoming their lack of fundamentals in pulling off those wins? The fact that we had some quality wins shows that we have talent. I admit my post was full of hyperbole, but I don't see how anybody can argue that our basic individual defensive fundamentals weren't consistently atrocious all season long. Seems like we only could compete against quality teams when refs didn't call the game so tight. Get position, put your arms up straight, and make the other team make a play. But too often we simply bailed teams out with late hacks because of what seems to me is a team philosophy to never give up a field goal without contact. I don't think it's logical to conclude our players are not coachable. The coaching adjustments were never made, and this team played head scratching basketball for large stretches of the season. I'm not calling for JT3's head or anything - just that the staff needs to share the blame. It's not logical to conclude our players aren't coachable but it is logical to conclude there were no coaching or strategy adjustments over an unsuccessful season? I think the coaching staff deserves blame but the players deserve just as much.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 8, 2014 18:58:22 GMT -5
The fact that we had some quality wins shows that we have talent. I admit my post was full of hyperbole, but I don't see how anybody can argue that our basic individual defensive fundamentals weren't consistently atrocious all season long. Seems like we only could compete against quality teams when refs didn't call the game so tight. Get position, put your arms up straight, and make the other team make a play. But too often we simply bailed teams out with late hacks because of what seems to me is a team philosophy to never give up a field goal without contact. I don't think it's logical to conclude our players are not coachable. The coaching adjustments were never made, and this team played head scratching basketball for large stretches of the season. I'm not calling for JT3's head or anything - just that the staff needs to share the blame. It's not logical to conclude our players aren't coachable but it is logical to conclude there were no coaching or strategy adjustments over an unsuccessful season? I think the coaching staff deserves blame but the players deserve just as much. This. Silly to blame the staff and let the players off the hook. There is plenty of blame to go around.
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Post by vanman on Mar 8, 2014 19:02:27 GMT -5
Too much discussion on these posts about player development. This team has gone as far as it could with the talent that it has. Yes some players have not developed but they were never talented to start. The ability to handle a basketball should be a prerequisite for D1 recruits. I love how hard they try but if you aspire to be a top team you need ballers. Yes there's always a place for role players like AB, Hop and Nate but only for a few minutes. This season is soon to be in the book. I expect 1 win next week but can hope for 2. Let's hope JT3 does a better job at assessing bball talent before awarding scholarships. i don't agree. i think this is a sweet 16 team. the issue with this game is, it was obvious that Villanova was aggressively playing passing lanes and over playing defense, yet the GUARDS kept making not smart plays. Just didn't play smart. Then it snowballs and people start pressing. You think this is a sweet 16 team?
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Post by wahoohoya on Mar 8, 2014 19:04:29 GMT -5
The fact that we had some quality wins shows that we have talent. I admit my post was full of hyperbole, but I don't see how anybody can argue that our basic individual defensive fundamentals weren't consistently atrocious all season long. Seems like we only could compete against quality teams when refs didn't call the game so tight. Get position, put your arms up straight, and make the other team make a play. But too often we simply bailed teams out with late hacks because of what seems to me is a team philosophy to never give up a field goal without contact. I don't think it's logical to conclude our players are not coachable. The coaching adjustments were never made, and this team played head scratching basketball for large stretches of the season. I'm not calling for JT3's head or anything - just that the staff needs to share the blame. It's not logical to conclude our players aren't coachable but it is logical to conclude there were no coaching or strategy adjustments over an unsuccessful season? I think the coaching staff deserves blame but the players deserve just as much. I never said players don't deserve blame. But did you see any evidence of playing defense any differently throughout the season? It's not like we have a bunch of D3 talent that had to foul at such a high rate to keep up. Every single one of our front court players fouled at an astounding rate all season. And the way they approached defense never changed - at least to my eyes. Ultimately, all I am saying is that I think our players are better than what they showed this year. And that coaches and players both deserve criticism.
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Post by wahoohoya on Mar 8, 2014 19:05:55 GMT -5
It's not logical to conclude our players aren't coachable but it is logical to conclude there were no coaching or strategy adjustments over an unsuccessful season? I think the coaching staff deserves blame but the players deserve just as much. This. Silly to blame the staff and let the players off the hook. There is plenty of blame to go around. Honestly, what part of "share the blame" do you not get? Did I say anywhere that the players should be let off the hook?
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 8, 2014 19:10:56 GMT -5
I think we are over complicating things. We lost this game when Trawick and Starks were benched with 3 fouls. We aren't built to come back from double digit deficits this year and that did us in. Pretty simple. Even this year, most of our losses can be attributed to foul trouble. It's not surprising out two best games of the season came in games called quite liberally, or the way games were called last year. It does make me wonder if the rule change had taken place last year and games were called similarly to this year, would we have been as good? I think we would be better than this year but and not much. The rule change has had a huge impact on the game. Now it's almost impossible to guard a plus athlete who can dribble penetrate without fouling. That's one of the reasons why Villanova (who was picked 4th in the BE) is doing so well this year. They play 4 guys on the floor who can dribble penetrate at the same time. If you look at the teams that we are getting blown out by they have dribble penetrators that are athletically superior (Kansas, Oregon, St. Johns, Seton Hall /Fuquan Edwards, Providence/Brice Cotton, Villanova) who are unstoppable or get our team in foul trouble. The teams we play better against like Creighton, Butler are less athletic than us and lack those aggressive rim attackers. I think it's also tough on us because we have a small backcourt (Starks, DSR), that lacks lateral quickness. Good shooters can shoot over them because they lack length and dribble penetrators can blow by them and expose the bigs who cover for them to fouls with the new rules. The past couple years we have had alot of length with Whit and Poter. Whit and Trawick could play shooting guard and Otto at 6-9 at small forward could give us alot of length which made it harder to shoot over and made the zone more effective. They could also hit the passing lanes with their length and get steals or turnovers. Marquette's having trouble adjusting as well since they lost Vander Blue and lack a good point guard. Even Syracuse is having problems. No team has really looked dominant and good this entire year except Florida and Wichita State who is untested. It's a very weird year in large part due to the rules which are frankly turning the game into a joke. Defense has gone out the window but the game isn't more exciting because it's just leading to more fouls and games being won because of free throws and foul trouble. New Rules: espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9830285/rick-pitino-john-calipari-bill-self-coaches-torn-rule-changes-2013-14-season
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OldHoyafan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,387
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 8, 2014 19:12:07 GMT -5
Too much discussion on these posts about player development. This team has gone as far as it could with the talent that it has. Yes some players have not developed but they were never talented to start. The ability to handle a basketball should be a prerequisite for D1 recruits. I love how hard they try but if you aspire to be a top team you need ballers. Yes there's always a place for role players like AB, Hop and Nate but only for a few minutes. This season is soon to be in the book. I expect 1 win next week but can hope for 2. Let's hope JT3 does a better job at assessing bball talent before awarding scholarships. This sums it up. As much as we would like to see this team go to the NCAA, the fact is that this is not a deeply talented team. They have gone as far as they can go given the lack of talent and the schizo phrenic officiating this year in college ball. III has to take some of the blame with the recruitment of role players to be starters in his system, but hpe has had some bad luck too with Adams, Whittington and Smith. Given the strength of the BE this year, I don't see a below .500 in conference team being selected unless they win the BE Tournament. So let's enjoy the BE tournament and NIT run if they do not win the BE. Help is on the way next year.
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dreamhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,259
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Post by dreamhoya on Mar 8, 2014 19:17:37 GMT -5
i don't agree. i think this is a sweet 16 team. the issue with this game is, it was obvious that Villanova was aggressively playing passing lanes and over playing defense, yet the GUARDS kept making not smart plays. Just didn't play smart. Then it snowballs and people start pressing. You think this is a sweet 16 team? Yes, I agree with coach, if this team plays like they're capable, they're a very good team. But doesn't matter. The aren't right now. They need to just get in though. But maybe they won't.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 8, 2014 19:21:47 GMT -5
Too much discussion on these posts about player development. This team has gone as far as it could with the talent that it has. Yes some players have not developed but they were never talented to start. The ability to handle a basketball should be a prerequisite for D1 recruits. I love how hard they try but if you aspire to be a top team you need ballers. Yes there's always a place for role players like AB, Hop and Nate but only for a few minutes. This season is soon to be in the book. I expect 1 win next week but can hope for 2. Let's hope JT3 does a better job at assessing bball talent before awarding scholarships. This sums it up. As much as we would like to see this team go to the NCAA, the fact is that this is not a deeply talented team. They have gone as far as they can go given the lack of talent and the schizo phrenic officiating this year in college ball. III has to take some of the blame with the recruitment of role players to be starters in his system, but hpe has had some bad luck too with Adams, Whittington and Smith. Given the strength of the BE this year, I don't see a below .500 in conference team being selected unless they win the BE Tournament. So let's enjoy the BE tournament and NIT run if they do not win the BE. Help is on the way next year. At the same time the players were recruited based on the old rules set which was more accommodating to role players and glue guys. Not sure anyone could have known that the NCAA would make such drastic rule changes 3-4 years ahead of time. The Hoyas have always been built on defense. And despite some offensively challenged players it's at the defensive end that we are losing alot of these games. Unfortunately now that you can't touch the offensive player it's almost impossible to play defense unless you are a plus athlete with length or a giant shot blocker. So you basically have to outscore your opponent.
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KHoyaNYC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,901
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 8, 2014 19:30:04 GMT -5
Too much discussion on these posts about player development. This team has gone as far as it could with the talent that it has. Yes some players have not developed but they were never talented to start. The ability to handle a basketball should be a prerequisite for D1 recruits. I love how hard they try but if you aspire to be a top team you need ballers. Yes there's always a place for role players like AB, Hop and Nate but only for a few minutes. This season is soon to be in the book. I expect 1 win next week but can hope for 2. Let's hope JT3 does a better job at assessing bball talent before awarding scholarships. This sums it up. As much as we would like to see this team go to the NCAA, the fact is that this is not a deeply talented team. They have gone as far as they can go given the lack of talent and the schizo phrenic officiating this year in college ball. III has to take some of the blame with the recruitment of role players to be starters in his system, but hpe has had some bad luck too with Adams, Whittington and Smith. Given the strength of the BE this year, I don't see a below .500 in conference team being selected unless they win the BE Tournament. So let's enjoy the BE tournament and NIT run if they do not win the BE. Help is on the way next year. This is right. Period.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 8, 2014 19:30:21 GMT -5
This. Silly to blame the staff and let the players off the hook. There is plenty of blame to go around. Honestly, what part of "share the blame" do you not get? Did I say anywhere that the players should be let off the hook? You said it is a "poorly coached team" with a staff that "ignores the fundamentals". Even though you used the term "share the blame" the rest of your post made no reference to or criticism of the players. But I agree with sharing the blame
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