|
Post by indianhoop on Oct 15, 2013 0:21:50 GMT -5
It's a tough one and I feel for you guys. I like having GTown in the PL for football but it's soon to be (in some ways it already is) not the type of PL football you guys signed up for. A lot of the PL programs are going to be much closer in talent to CAA schools like Richmond, W&M, Villanova etc in the near future and I really don't see how GTown stays in the PL unless they are content to be the "whipping boys" of the league.
Staying in the PL for football and expecting to be somewhat viable/competitive under the present course you've taken i.e. no scholarships, no facility upgrades etc is not going to happen in the years ahead.
Saying that, I realize you could counter with: "So...that's the way it's almost always been anyway." You'd probably not be that far off...but 60 (or close to that) scholarship PL teams will routinely put beat downs on Georgetown teams and really, what purpose is this serving anyone?
|
|
cheer48
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 180
|
Post by cheer48 on Oct 15, 2013 8:19:13 GMT -5
Good discussion brothers.....we need to make clear to the powers in the athletic department that they be working NOW on a plan to change the absurd situation in which we find ourselves, For the love of the game, to say nothing of respect for our athletes, we need to be realistically in a competitive situation and not one in which we begin the games with one hand tied behind our backs....i.e. the player`s backs. I personally have no connections in the AD or the other levels of our great university.....and I don`t have the financial resources to put my money where my mouth is but I hope there are those out there that do and will make an effort to knock on an important door, i.e. that of the President, athletic director or Coach Kelly who seems to be a good man and a good coach and who loves our beloved university.....GO HOYAS !
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,866
|
Post by thebin on Oct 15, 2013 10:18:07 GMT -5
DFW: "And that doesn't have to be within the PL--unlike the Big East commitmemts, it has choices in football, such as the NEC or simply playing as an independent with 5 or 6 Ivy games a year and a mix of PL, Howard, and Davidson to fill out the slate.
The other Patriot League schools are willing to invest $5-6 million annually on football and assume the expenses therein, albeit to draw 4,000 a game and get one body-bag game a year with Temple or UConn to keep the alumni interested. Georgetown, to some degree, fairly considers this a poor use of capital in a 29 sport department where 21 of the 29 are not fully funded. Jack Hagerty was once able to coach major college football at GU with just 20 scholarships when some of his opponents had upwards of 100.
If 60 football scholarships won't fly at Georgetown, zero won't either, and there has to be a number reached that fits the tenor of the times."
I've also toyed with the notion of going independent. The problem I keep running into is that if we are going to fill such an indy schedule with PL and Ivies, and those are the only schools we have interest in playing if we're honest, then why not stay in the PL and do the same? And is playing 6 Ivies a year a real possibility? Something about playing nearly a full Ivy schedule without the league recognizing us as a member feels wrong. Like we're trying to compensate for something and the Big Boys let us pretend to be a fake member but only to a point. We're going to still be playing schools that have resources we can't match in a hybrid PL/Ivy inde schedule right? So what advantage to leave the PL to do that? (I refuse to believe any of the starters at Penn and Harvard and Brown these days are not on virtual full scholarships unless their parents are wealthy.)
I also agree I think we can be competitive without having to go close to 60 schollies. About the only area where I just can't follow you DFW is the NEC. I can tell you that among my Gtown friends who are almost all football alums this move would be a deathblow to any interest in the program. Maybe a women's field hockey team can survive without any real interest, but I'm not sure a football team can. It’s just too big an operation. I continue to think the program can be viable in the PL but I think a move away from the PL would be catastrophic.
|
|
cheer48
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 180
|
Post by cheer48 on Oct 15, 2013 13:19:17 GMT -5
keep in mind Bin that the players (presumably former G`town players whose opinion you note) were not being matched scholie vrs non scholie, 60 vrs none can make a hell of a difference in one`s approach to the game both practically and mentally.....a good question for Coach Kelly to discuss.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,866
|
Post by thebin on Oct 15, 2013 14:19:58 GMT -5
I do have that exactly in mind. I advocate pushing for some scholarships (maybe 20), a small stadium, and staying in the PL....or dropping the program if the NEC/Pioneer is the exit plan from real IAA fb. And I make the last statement not as some sort of melodramatic flourish, I would be sad to see the program scrapped. But try as I might I cannot advocate the university continuing to support a team that costs well over a $1M a year so we can pretend to care about playing St. Francis and Central Connecticut. If we could go much cheaper and play football in something like the NESCAC at $600K or so a year in d3 I think that would be better alternative to dropping it altogether. That isn't remotely a possiblity but I mention it to make it clear I'm open to the concept of small-time fb staying on if it means we were playing Williams and Amherst and Tufts and Wesleyan in the fall. Clearly, that's not remotely a possibility because we're not a d3 school. But if we have officially surrendered the PL challenge and the alternative is the likes of Bryant and Monmouth I think we'd be better served to allocate that money to teams that can compete at a high level like soccer. I sure hope it doesn't come to that. I hope we stick it out in the PL and find some money to give the boys a chance out there.
|
|
cheer48
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 180
|
Post by cheer48 on Oct 15, 2013 15:11:14 GMT -5
I can sincerely respect your opinion brother but candidly feel that I personally would prefer something rather than nothing.....I love the game more than the prestige of whom we play so long as it is on an even-steven basis....
|
|
cheer48
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 180
|
Post by cheer48 on Oct 15, 2013 15:46:44 GMT -5
PS....with that thought, I shall rest my case....good and informative conversation with you guys...trust that all will work out for the best and thanks for indulging me ! Peace Brothers.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,817
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 15, 2013 22:48:34 GMT -5
(I refuse to believe any of the starters students, period at Penn and Harvard and Brown these days are not on virtual full scholarships unless their parents are wealthy.) Fixed that for you
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,866
|
Post by thebin on Oct 16, 2013 8:28:11 GMT -5
(I refuse to believe any of the starters students, period at Penn and Harvard and Brown these days are not on virtual full scholarships unless their parents are wealthy.) Fixed that for you Certainly at Harvard that is very largely true, and I think it is the wave of the future for the top range of elite schools. But it has become quite clear that the Ivy league doesn't recruit nearly as much out of the upper middle and upper class in the northeast (especially prep schools) for its football players now nearly as much as they did 15-30 years ago. I'm sure it is a consequence of the Ivy coaches finding a way to have scholarships without actually having scholarships. $11-figure endowments solve lots of problems.
|
|
|
Post by indianhoop on Oct 16, 2013 9:48:47 GMT -5
Certainly at Harvard that is very largely true, and I think it is the wave of the future for the top range of elite schools. But it has become quite clear that the Ivy league doesn't recruit nearly as much out of the upper middle and upper class in the northeast (especially prep schools) for its football players now nearly as much as they did 15-30 years ago. I'm sure it is a consequence of the Ivy coaches finding a way to have scholarships without actually having scholarships. $11-figure endowments solve lots of problems. That's a good point and probably true for the (and now I sound like Ted Cruz....thanks for that) "upper football Ivies." It's a different world but some of the guys I knew at HC in the 80s had football offers from the likes of Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale etc but they chose to go to HC on a full scholarship. Obviously it was also for the superior Jesuit education they'd receive on Mt St James, but a lot of it was probably financial to a good degree i.e. pay $0 vs probably $1,000s/yr to attend. That's really no longer the case...as has been stated here, many Ivy football players are on a de facto scholarship. A kid like the Harvard RB Stanton from Jesuit HS (NO, La) would probably have gone to a school like Holy Cross in 1985 on a full scholarship rather than the aid Harvard would have offered him then. Today he's in Cambridge probably paying little or nothing to study at Harvard. Spinning this back to the discussion at hand, this is why GTown probably couldn't go "Independent" and play 5 or 6 Ivies and expect to be successful on the field. The Ivies are also getting better collectively....better than they have been in the last 10-20 years anyway...and are going to have to remain so if they want to compete against PL or CAA schools down the road.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,866
|
Post by thebin on Oct 16, 2013 10:16:31 GMT -5
My family were Harvard season ticket holders in the 80s. I followed the league closely in the 1990's as my friends from prep schools and I considered our college choices as it related to Ivy/PL football. And now in the last 15 years I've followed both leagues as a fan of Gtown football and it is clear as day there has been a sea change in the recruiting culture at both leagues but particularly in the Ivy. To see the 2013 Harvard roster is pretty revealing. There are more kids from Georgia, California, Texas, or Florida each than from Massachusetts. I see a couple of kids from old Harvard stomping grounds prep schools like Phillips Exeter and Northfield Mt Herman. Literally 3 or 4 TOTAL from traditional New England prep schools that used to be the cornerstone of Ivy rosters. Even in the early 90s that list would have had easily 2 dozen kids Exeter, Andover, St. Paul's, Roxbury Latin, Choate, Deerfield, Hotchkiss, Loomis Chafee, etc. Those kids would have been largely from upper middle class families and their parents would have been paying a significant portion of their tuitions. I'm sure the football has improved as they have moved to a more national more public/Catholic recruiting model. I just have to wonder how they get away with this "non-scholarship" nonsense while they are doing it. It is one thing for a Harvard to do this as they also do it for their non-athlete students for the most part. But it seems a bit rich to me for the other Ivies to claim they are non-scholarship as they litter their roster with superior athletes from around the country who I very much doubt are turning down above board scholarships elsewhere to attend Dartmouth or Penn or Brown and incur 6 figure debt. They clearly are for the most part not paying a thing. I'm fine with that, just not sure how they get away with calling it non-scholarship. At any rate, to me this spells one thing: the current Gtown model is toast. We either move up or we move down. I don't think there is any compelling reason to attempt to do the latter. And I doubt GU Athletics has the leadership or will to do the former. www.gocrimson.com/sports/fball/2013-14/roster
|
|
|
Post by Problem of Dog on Oct 16, 2013 11:13:02 GMT -5
Spinning this back to the discussion at hand, this is why GTown probably couldn't go "Independent" and play 5 or 6 Ivies and expect to be successful on the field. The Ivies are also getting better collectively....better than they have been in the last 10-20 years anyway...and are going to have to remain so if they want to compete against PL or CAA schools down the road. But the Ivies will always have an index, and with scholarships and lower academic standards, the PL will be a much less viable option for Georgetown. I don't see any potential for the Ivies improving all that rapidly in the next few years, while that will certainly be the case for the PL.
|
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,817
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 16, 2013 11:17:29 GMT -5
It is one thing for a Harvard to do this as they also do it for their non-athlete students for the most part. But it seems a bit rich to me for the other Ivies to claim they are non-scholarship as they litter their roster with superior athletes from around the country who I very much doubt are turning down above board scholarships elsewhere to attend Dartmouth or Penn or Brown and incur 6 figure debt. They clearly are for the most part not paying a thing. I'm fine with that, just not sure how they get away with calling it non-scholarship. I think you're underestimating the amount of financial aid that even Brown, Dartmouth, and Cornell provide to all undergrads - it may not be Harvard high, but it is extremely generous by Georgetown or almost any other school's standards.
|
|
|
Post by indianhoop on Oct 16, 2013 11:19:59 GMT -5
They get away with it because they are the "Ivy League."
This sort of ebb and flow of Ivy football has been going on since its inception officially in 1956. Many of the Ivies wanted to downgrade at the time i.e. not be quite as successful at a national level. Though some schools remained somewhat successful in this era (1956-1970) like Yale, Princeton and Dartmouth, for the most part Ivy football moved away from being national to regional powers. Through most of the 1970s the Ivies were essentially 1-AA even though they were technically 1-A. A lot of beatings by the "poor unwashed" like UConn, UNH, Delaware etc in the 70s and early 80s led to the creation of the PL in the early/mid 80s to a great extent.
What happened (imo) is that the pendulum swung too far in the non-scholarship PL/IL era of the 90s and 00s. Many of the PL and IL schools were now not only losing to UNH, URI etc but also to Central Connecticut, Sacred Heart, Duquense etc. I think this led to both the resumption of scholarship football in the PL and the greater financial largesse for football aid at many Ivies.
In Georgetown's case, I think they joined the PL in 2000 at the right time for the Hoyas but probably at one of the weaker moments in both the PL and IL's existence. This has worked (such as it has worked) for Georgetown from 2000-1013 but the pendulum is swinging back in the other direction now.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,866
|
Post by thebin on Oct 16, 2013 12:16:55 GMT -5
I have to tell you, I don't remember the Ivies losing to the Central Conns, Sacred Hearts or Duquesnes at all. I don't remember the Ivy teams ever playing current NEC teams. I feel like only some lesser PL teams started doing that and pretty recently. Are you sure about that? There was certainly a period around then when the Ivies were routinely getting beaten by the PL and beaten badly by CAA schools. But NEC schools?
|
|
|
Post by indianhoop on Oct 16, 2013 13:25:23 GMT -5
I'd have to look more extensively but off the top of my head Wagner has beaten Cornell and Sacred Heart has beaten Dartmouth the last couple of years. I don't think Harvard-Yale-Princeton have scheduled/played any NEC schools ever.
The Duquense reference was for HC. The relatively quick and sudden demise of HC football in the 1990's and early 2000's can not really be overstated. We went from one of the best 1-AA programs in the late 1980's to one of the nation's worst by the late 1990's.
ETA: there were a few other NEC losses to Ivies over the last few years beside the ones above: Albany beat Yale in 2010, Columbia (I know) lost to Albany and Sacred Heart in 2011 and CCSU in 2009. Brown lost to a transitioning to the Big South Stony Brook in 2009.
|
|
thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,866
|
Post by thebin on Oct 16, 2013 14:00:22 GMT -5
I remember when Holy Cross was good. Used to go to all the Harvard-Holy Cross games in the 80s. Was there for the Gordie Lockbaum years. Albany and Stony Brook have both made massive strides of late. Both have very impressive stadia and look closer to BCS quality programs than the current NEC. I wouldn't be surprised if both were not harboring FBS plans 10 years down the line, particularly Albany who have created their stadium with the ability to enlarge rather easily. It is also a public school of decent size (18k total students) closer to NYC than Cuse and probably able to beat Cuse now. www.ualbanysports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=15800&ATCLID=209273988
|
|