Joshua Smith Discussion

[TC]

Jan 13, 2014 10:01:27 GMT -5 calhoya said:

As for recruiting kids like Otto who have no likelihood of completing four years--well that is what the business has become

Otto is not a good example of "no likelihood of completing four years". He was underranked, he was underscouted, and he developed quickly - there was no way you could say when he was recruited that Otto Porter is a surefire lottery pick.

If you want an example of someone who had no likelihood of completing four years, use Greg Monroe. Not Otto.

[calhoya]

I think that the buzz on Otto even during the later stages of his recruitment was that he had NBA potential but your point is valid. My point is that I believe that recruiting players likely not to last 4 years is a legitimate objective for this program, even if it is somewhat askew from the educational mission statement of the univeristy.

[cosmopolitanhoya]

I think some of you guys are tripping because right after it happened with Greg, it happened again with Josh, and our players under JT3 have not had any academic issues before then.

Whether he comes back or not, this falls again on Jt3. Sure, he could not have forced Josh to do his hw but he is the one recognizing the talent not only on court but also off-court. The talent evaluation under JT3 has been just abysmal. Honestly if he was the HC prior to when he was hired, I don't think he would have recruited Hibbert (whom he openly admitted that he would not have) and not even sure about Green (who was a borderline top 100 recruit in high school). Without those 2, the sweet 16 and FF in 2006-2008 would not have happened at the first place.

He had such a great momentum after the FF in 2007 to recruit all the best players (namely Monroe, former #1 recruit in the nation) to produce good records, yet has failed to do so. Otto was a fluke recruit under special circumstances that Kirby knew his father personally, if not, he would not have come here nor would we have recognized his talent.

A lot of us here on HT hype up our next year's recruiting class to be that "this is the year, this is the class that we been all waiting for" I am hoping it is as well. But if next year's class somehow turns out to be a "bust" according to our standards, where do we go from here?

[Big Dog]

I think you're in denial if you are taking both (a) the position that we recruit only great kids who graduate, except where we don't, in which case it is because we are committed to giving kids an opportunity, and (b) the position that anybody else who takes or retains bad kids or gives them another chance after academic or other issues is a money-grubbing, win at all costs program that doesn't give a about student-athletes.

There was a time when, fair or not (it was not), Georgetown was probably the national face of the "they will take anybody and damn the academics" criticism. Yes, that was undoubtedly grounded in racism rather than actual fact, but there is a warning in there somewhere about being so quick to question the motives of other programs that one does not like.

[cheer48]

for a long walk on a short dock !

[nychoya3]

If you think we haven't had talent during JT3's time as head coach, I highly suggest you become a Kentucky fan since it's just about the only team that will meet your standards.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

Cosmo, no one has said the last two groups would be the "one" class that got it done. Some wouldn't have hyped the current junior class even with Whittington and Porter in that "the one" class. I think you would have to go back to the Sims/Monroe class and before that the Wright/Freeman class as ones that had really high hopes.

[Filo]

Jan 13, 2014 15:37:03 GMT -5 cosmopolitanhoya said:

I think some of you guys are tripping because right after it happened with Greg, it happened again with Josh, and our players under JT3 have not had any academic issues before then.

Whether he comes back or not, this falls again on Jt3. Sure, he could not have forced Josh to do his hw but he is the one recognizing the talent not only on court but also off-court. The talent evaluation under JT3 has been just abysmal. Honestly if he was the HC prior to when he was hired, I don't think he would have recruited Hibbert (whom he openly admitted that he would not have) and not even sure about Green (who was a borderline top 100 recruit in high school). Without those 2, the sweet 16 and FF in 2006-2008 would not have happened at the first place.

He had such a great momentum after the FF in 2007 to recruit all the best players (namely Monroe, former #1 recruit in the nation) to produce good records, yet has failed to do so. Otto was a fluke recruit under special circumstances that Kirby knew his father personally, if not, he would not have come here nor would we have recognized his talent.

A lot of us here on HT hype up our next year's recruiting class to be that "this is the year, this is the class that we been all waiting for" I am hoping it is as well. But if next year's class somehow turns out to be a "bust" according to our standards, where do we go from here?

So your theory is that talent evaluation under JTIII has been abysmal and to support it you discount two of his best players using your own conjecture, then you refer to a Top 1 or 2 player (Monroe) he brought in but seem to be complaining about JTIII's failure to be susccessful with him, then you discount Otto, another great recruit, as a fluke. Then you just decide to ignore other quality recruits like Freeman, Wright, DSR.

WTF? How about some cogent analysis? How about anything with even a shred of logic? Again, WTF.

[Nevada Hoya]

Jan 12, 2014 21:25:47 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Jan 12, 2014 17:55:39 GMT -5 Nevada Hoya said:

As an alumni interviewer, I sent JTII a letter protesting AI's admission over one of the students I interviewed; she was only a tennis player and good student(and African American) and would have probably stayed all four years .

The only person Allen Iverson's admission really cost (in terms of a place in the class) was Eric Micoud.

I was responding to Big Dog's comment: Like the integrity we showed with Iverson and Page, right?

I was upset that my student did not get into GU; I mailed JTII on my comments, but I was not about to think that my letter would be worth a hill of beans (as it is the interview and what the interviewer thinks has very little influence on whether the student get addmitted or not).

[hoyaloya]

re cosmoopolitan hoya's comment, how about a little credit to Esh for recruiting Hibbert and Green?

[hoyasaxa2003]

Jan 13, 2014 15:37:03 GMT -5 cosmopolitanhoya said:

He had such a great momentum after the FF in 2007 to recruit all the best players (namely Monroe, former #1 recruit in the nation) to produce good records, yet has failed to do so. Otto was a fluke recruit under special circumstances that Kirby knew his father personally, if not, he would not have come here nor would we have recognized his talent.

Again, this is all dependent on your version of success. Georgetown has done extremely well under John Thompson III, with the only exception being recent NCAA performances. In 2006, he had a Sweet 16, in 2007, he had the Final Four (and the Big East championship), in 2008 led the team to win the Big East again, and also the Big East Tournament. In 2011, we actually did make the second round and came close to the Sweet 16 (even though people usually forget we beat Belmont). In 2013, we won the Big East regular season championship again. And except for 2009, we have fielded solid teams that have gotten fairly decent seeding, even if they have not lost.

Thus, it lacks credibility to say John Thompson III hasn't used his players to produce good records. We've actually been quite good since he became the coach. Have we been as good in the post-season as we'd like? Of course not, but that's not the only metric (though I understand many of you only care about March, which I think takes it to an extreme).

As somebody else said, you cannot cherry pick each of John Thompson III's best recruits and discount each of them as a fluke or exception. The fact is, we've had plenty of talented players, we've just underperformed in the post season. If we had made a few Sweet 16's instead of losing in the first round, this discussion would surely be very different for many of you (when in reality, that's a minute difference and partly, luck).

[prhoya]

Jan 13, 2014 18:16:32 GMT -5 hoyaloya said:

re cosmoopolitan hoya's comment, how about a little credit to Esh for recruiting Hibbert and Green?

Once again, Hibbert recruited GU. It was his dream school since a very young age and he practiced with the team since he was 13 years old. Credit goes to Esh in the sense that he did not hold back a scholarship. In reality, he was coming no matter who was coach. As for Jeff, he was recruited by Esh, but Jeff didn't verbal to him. JT3 had to convince him to come. He signed after JT3 was the coach. Credit goes to JT3.

[hoyaloya]

prhoya: you disagree then with cosmopolitanhoya's statement: "Honestly if he was the HC prior to when he was hired, I don't think he would have recruited Hibbert (whom he openly admitted that he would not have) and not even sure about Green (who was a borderline top 100 recruit in high school). Without those 2, the sweet 16 and FF in 2006-2008 would not have happened at the first place."

[prhoya]

As to Hibbert, I hadn't heard of that JT3 admission, so I guess that answers it. Regarding Jeff, JT3 took up his recruitment, offered and signed him.

[This Just In]

The post-season losses in the NCAA's has nationally damaged the program's image as a powerhouse. You take away the 2012 lost to NC St. in the 3rd rd....the rest of this losses since the Final Four has been abysmal...and it is not just the losses it how we are losing...by double digit points to these mid-major double seeded teams.

Some people will down play the importance of the tournament and the value of winning 2 games to get the 2nd weekend. That 2nd weekend is a great recruiting too with all the extra publicity each school gets...just remember how highly the ranked those recruiting classes were after the Final Four run with those McDonald's All American's coming in...that speaks for itself.

Now I do not think the 600LB Gorilla gets off the programs back this year cause I do not think this team will get to the Sweet 16 this year....it could be next or the the year after...Nationally speaking this has to be the programs goal..cause us Notre Dame and even Temple will annually get picked as the obvious choices for an early exit.

Also Georgetown's post-season success standard is different than a UCLA or even Minnesota who's coach won a NCAA game and still got fired...go figure.

The post season success standard for the basketball program here has a good and a bad connotation attached to it.

[SFHoya99]

Jan 14, 2014 0:30:53 GMT -5 prhoya said:

As to Hibbert, I hadn't heard of that JT3 admission, so I guess that answers it. Regarding Jeff, JT3 took up his recruitment, offered and signed him.

No, Esherick signed Jeff, who signed in the fall of 2003. Esherick was fired in the spring of '04 and JTIII hired soon after.

There was some talk that Jeff, who had possibly not reached a proper score on the SAT (never substantiated except in rumor to my knowledge), would basically not qualify, go to prep school for a year, and then not go to Georgetown. Another possibility that was he'd petition to get out of his LOI because the coach he committed to was fired. This wasn't yet automatic in 2004, but had precedent -- that's actually how Ashanti Cook ended up in Georgetown.

There was conversation about Maryland and even a story that Mike Hopkins up at Syracuse promised Jeff would get out of his LOI and go there.

Perhaps this was all BS and Jeff never wavered. Perhaps its somewhat true and JTIII had to re-sell him. Not sure which.

But two things are true: one, Jeff did sign with Esherick even if he probably could have gotten out of the LOI; and two, Jeff Green had completely blown up by the time JTIII was hired -- he was only a top 100 borderline guy because most recruiting services spend very little time on the senior class after they commit. III might have meant what he said about Roy but I doubt he'd have turned down Jeff.

[cosmopolitanhoya]

Jan 13, 2014 18:29:54 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Jan 13, 2014 15:37:03 GMT -5 cosmopolitanhoya said:

He had such a great momentum after the FF in 2007 to recruit all the best players (namely Monroe, former #1 recruit in the nation) to produce good records, yet has failed to do so. Otto was a fluke recruit under special circumstances that Kirby knew his father personally, if not, he would not have come here nor would we have recognized his talent.

Again, this is all dependent on your version of success. Georgetown has done extremely well under John Thompson III, with the only exception being recent NCAA performances. In 2006, he had a Sweet 16, in 2007, he had the Final Four (and the Big East championship), in 2008 led the team to win the Big East again, and also the Big East Tournament. In 2011, we actually did make the second round and came close to the Sweet 16 (even though people usually forget we beat Belmont). In 2013, we won the Big East regular season championship again. And except for 2009, we have fielded solid teams that have gotten fairly decent seeding, even if they have not lost.

Thus, it lacks credibility to say John Thompson III hasn't used his players to produce good records. We've actually been quite good since he became the coach. Have we been as good in the post-season as we'd like? Of course not, but that's not the only metric (though I understand many of you only care about March, which I think takes it to an extreme).

As somebody else said, you cannot cherry pick each of John Thompson III's best recruits and discount each of them as a fluke or exception. The fact is, we've had plenty of talented players, we've just underperformed in the post season. If we had made a few Sweet 16's instead of losing in the first round, this discussion would surely be very different for many of you (when in reality, that's a minute difference and partly, luck).

Like you said, this depends on your standard of success. But for most viewers of College BB, what matters is the post season like This Just In said. You can be delusional and say you'd take the regular season's success over the post season success, but most people with common sense would take the latter.

You are right, we have had plenty of talented players. Greg Monroe, #1 recruit from his class for most of the time (I still remember how exuberant this board was after he was committed). Austin Freeman and Chris Wright, pair of MCDAAs guards and probably the biggest profiled guards since AI. Jason Clark, the All-Met player of the year. Greg Whittington, another All-Met player of the year.

And how many wins in the post season have these guys produced?

The majority of our wins come from Hibbert and Green era. Jt3 DID openly acknowledge he would not have recruited Hibbert. Just because Georgetown is his dream school, do you think we would have taken him if JT3 was the coach beforehand? There are many recent recruits who have said that Georgetown was their dream school, but ended up at some other school. If 3 did not want him, what makes you think that he would have come here? Just because he is 7'2? Many of you guys during his freshman year were WTF WHY DID WE RECRUIT HIM. He was a huge project that turned out to be awesome. I guess we expected something similar with Hayes, but after 1.5 seasons, he has yet to step on the court for meaningful minutes. As of Jeff, who knows if he would have been recruited if 3 was coach from the beginning? 3 persuaded Green to sign LOI because he had no other recruits available at that time of period and losing him would be a big blow that could not have been made up. If 3 was the coach earlier, who knows that the 2004 class could have been another one man or two man class like the 2013 class?

Sometime ago, i have posted an article somewhere on recruit board about our potential recruits whom we were eyeing on - all those 5 stars/MCDAAs who turned out to be pure busts at college scene (despite somewhat relative success of Fab Melo, whom we ragged on for being bad, he was also one of our potential recruits). Then there are other recruits who have wanted to come to Georgetown but could not come due to space/scholarship issues and thrived well at other schools (Scottie Reynolds, Josh Hart, Chris Semaj, etc.) Only one recruit whom we have wanted bad but turned us down and now is doing super well at another school comes into my mind - Kyle Anderson. Besides him, most of our targetted recruits have not produced well at our school or others. That is called BAD talent evaluation.

I'm not hoping/saying JT3 should be fired (I have said JT3 should be held accountable at some point of his post season failures, but that's not what I am hoping to be). Neither will he ever be fired when Pop is around. Just like any other fans of this program, I want this guy to be successful by carrying us into post season where it really matters. This guy seemed to be a very nice person when I ran into him a few times on campus, not a sleaze like many other college bball coaches. Because of that, I do respect him forcing rigorous academic standards onto his players. Some may view this as old fashioned in this time of scene of college bball and recruiting world, where people believe whatever it takes to win should be our approach as well. But I respect he is not bending over his principles that he believes are right.

At the end of the day, college bball players are amateur players, not professional. Professional basketball players are the ones who are getting paid big bucks and the sole purpose in paying big bucks to them is winning. But that's not what college sports are SOLELY meant to be. Of course paired with the recent debate that for the revenues college athletes bring in, some believe they should be paid 6 figures +, and with such mentality, some fans want their programs to do whatever it takes to win. We will just agree to disagree on that one.

Many of us have agreed that the fundamental problem of our lackluster performances in recent years (mainly this debate surfaces this season where everything seems to be going wrong) is recruiting. It is talent evaluation. Fix that. Look at the players who brought in the most success into the program. Bring in players that have similar skillsets as them. Stop looking at how many stars are attached next to their name on scout/rival. One star or 0 star guard like John Wallace can sometimes bring more success for our program's record than 5 star guard Chris Wright.

[johnnysnowplow]

How did the Josh Smith thread devolve into yet another discussion of III's coaching ability to recruit/coach/win in the postseason?

[biggmanu]

First off Georgetown's image as a powerhouse has not been damaged by a bad streak of post season runs. The school shook off those losses almost like it never happened and steered an entire conference during a pivotal realignment while bringing in one of its strongest recruiting classes, in recent years...and doing so ahead of time for its 2014 class. Also turned over a few assistant coaches and brought in a few that I'm excited about.

On the point of Roy, he was seen as a big stiff and not clear at all if he was going to be one of the elite centers in the NBA at the point of time when he was coming out of Georgetown Prep. I think there had to be a certain degree of Roy persuading JT3 that he was going to be one of the hardest workers any of us have ever seen to convince coach that he should be highly considered in JT3s future as the new Hoyas coach. I remember having incredible frustration with Roy early on as he was pretty raw his freshman year, but always you had to consider big Roy for his dedication, incredible size and will-do. The kid knew he was going to be a superstar, he had the vision for it, and he executed on it brilliantly even though he could hardly run and catch coming out of high school. Pretty incredible story of one guys dreams and dedication and JT3s willingness to be open minded and dedicated in return. Esh deserves some credit in this Georgetown recruting effort too (which is why I love this story so much).

This has to be difficult because how do you really distinguish a Roy Hibbert from a Joshua Smith. Both have been given an incredible gift of size and equally big hearts. Both came with pretty convincing stories but clear risks. I roll my eyes at anyone who talks about JT3 and his team of talent evaluators like that's something that needs to be fixed. Every year the recruits that we bring in have similar skillsets, risks, and adolescent issues as the classes before them and before that. There's just an incredible amount of varibables and an aspect of luck in college basketball (which is a big reason why we all watch it) that you just have to accept. And JT3 does a fine job managing all of those variables. Only thing you can knock him for is just having a bad streak of luck.

On the point of JT3 job security. Such a silly thing that should never be mentioned in the breath of any posts on this board. I just laugh at anyone who says anything about JT3 being "held accountable" for our bad streak of post season runs he is probably more cemented at Georgetown than the John Carroll statue.

Also rolling my eyes on writing letters and still having palms up about A.I.

[cosmopolitanhoya]

Jan 14, 2014 10:23:14 GMT -5 biggmanu said:

First off Georgetown's image as a powerhouse has not been damaged by a bad streak of post season runs. The school shook off those losses almost like it never happened and steered an entire conference during a pivotal realignment while bringing in one of its strongest recruiting classes, in recent years...and doing so ahead of time for its 2014 class. Also turned over a few assistant coaches and brought in a few that I'm excited about.

On the point of Roy, he was seen as a big stiff and not clear at all if he was going to be one of the elite centers in the NBA at the point of time when he was coming out of Georgetown Prep. I think there had to be a certain degree of Roy persuading JT3 that he was going to be one of the hardest workers any of us have ever seen to convince coach that he should be highly considered in JT3s future as the new Hoyas coach. I remember having incredible frustration with Roy early on as he was pretty raw his freshman year, but always you had to consider big Roy for his dedication, incredible size and will-do. The kid knew he was going to be a superstar, he had the vision for it, and he executed on it brilliantly even though he could hardly run and catch coming out of high school. Pretty incredible story of one guys dreams and dedication and JT3s willingness to be open minded and dedicated in return. Esh deserves some credit in this Georgetown recruting effort too (which is why I love this story so much).

This has to be difficult because how do you really distinguish a Roy Hibbert from a Joshua Smith. Both have been given an incredible gift of size and equally big hearts. Both came with pretty convincing stories but clear risks. I roll my eyes at anyone who talks about JT3 and his team of talent evaluators like that's something that needs to be fixed. Every year the recruits that we bring in have similar skillsets, risks, and adolescent issues as the classes before them and before that. There's just an incredible amount of varibables and an aspect of luck in college basketball (which is a big reason why we all watch it) that you just have to accept. And JT3 does a fine job managing all of those variables. Only thing you can knock him for is just having a bad streak of luck.

On the point of JT3 job security. Such a silly thing that should never be mentioned in the breath of any posts on this board. I just laugh at anyone who says anything about JT3 being "held accountable" for our bad streak of post season runs he is probably more cemented at Georgetown than the John Carroll statue.

Also rolling my eyes on writing letters and still having palms up about A.I.

You are delusional if our image as a powerhouse has not been damaged by our postseason records. We have been mocked by many of our rivals for getting our butts whooped by likes of FGFU, Ohio and VCU. In fact, some hardcore Syracuse fans even stated on their forum that they wish we would get Nerlen Noels over Kentucky because they sympathize how bad we have played recently in the postseason. If the fans of our most hated rival sympathizes our recent records, you know that it is pretty bad. 3 has not made any meaningful adjustments into his game plan this season; it is the same ole as it always has been, and as a result, some of us continue to have diminished hope of this program this season. The 2014 class is definitely strong and I am looking forward to that like many other people here.

Josh was actually waaaaaaay more talented than Hibbert coming out of high school. This guy was MCDAA and was far ahead of Hibbert at the same age stage. Did not translate as well so far into college. The so called "variables" are things that the HC and assistant coaches also evaluate during recruiting. Of course JT3 would not have known that Josh would have programs with academics at Georgetown, but neverthless he is also responsible somewhat because he is the one who is charge of all this.

You are right that JT3 will never lose his job here as I have also mentioned above. But if we continue to get bounced out on the first weekend, he will certainly lose a lot of support from fans. I am a proud alumnus of the school and I will continue to be a fan of my school regardless of how they do, but not everyone here is Georgetown Alumni. I know a number of "respectable" posters here on HT who have stopped posting because they got simply frustrated with the way 3 handles things for the past few years and no longer worthy of following the program. Of course it won't matter to 3 if a few of us stop cheering for him. But as a fan of this program, I would like us to do well and make us proud of the name we cheer for.