Petraeus

[hoyainspirit]

Personally, I'm not mad at Petraeus. I do not think he should have been fired.

[SSHoya]

Female officers should be the maddest of all. This episode does nothing to ensure that they can have successful military careers based upon the merits of their service. Broadwell has done great damage to the perception that female officers who succeed do so on something other than their service record.

[CTHoya08]

Nov 14, 2012 7:51:53 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Female officers should be the maddest of all. This episode does nothing to ensure that they can have successful military careers based upon the merits of their service. Broadwell has done great damage to the perception that female officers who succeed do so on something other than their service record.

I've heard a lot of talk to this effect, but didn't the affair occur after she left the Army? Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see the "sleeping her way to the top" angle here.

[SSHoya]

She is still a Major in the Army Reserve (intelligence officer) It's the perception, regardless of whether she was on active duty when the affair occurred. You are correctly applying critical thinking and nuance to the circumstances which will probably not be done by the ranks in the military service, IMHO. BTW, I think the same perception would apply in the business world,

I just spent two years with a multinational military force, one third of which is regular Army and Army National Guard. We had a saying out there -- "You can't make this sh*t up!" Some of the conduct (misconduct) was quite astonishing given official Army policy on harassment and the like.

[SSHoya]

On a more substantive note, Robert Baer, F '76:

At the end of the CNN Anderson Cooper 360 (11/13, 8:12 p.m. EDT) segment, Baer added: "The FBI has every reason to look at this as a potential counterintelligence case. [Kelley's] foreign born. What are her connections? She claims Middle Eastern connections but doesn't specify. She's broke. They're on the verge of bankruptcy according to public records, and who is she? Who does she represent? As a former CIA officer, if I wanted to get into the U.S. military, I would go after somebody like that, what we call an 'access agent.'"

I may have missed it but I am surprised that more reporting hasn't discussed this angle. Not politically correct??

[rosslynhoya]

Nov 14, 2012 9:55:34 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

On a more substantive note, Robert Baer, F '76:

At the end of the CNN Anderson Cooper 360 (11/13, 8:12 p.m. EDT) segment, Baer added: "The FBI has every reason to look at this as a potential counterintelligence case. [Kelley's] foreign born. What are her connections? She claims Middle Eastern connections but doesn't specify. She's broke. They're on the verge of bankruptcy according to public records, and who is she? Who does she represent? As a former CIA officer, if I wanted to get into the U.S. military, I would go after somebody like that, what we call an 'access agent.'"

I may have missed it but I am surprised that more reporting hasn't discussed this angle. Not politically correct??

One of the most legitimate hypotheses I've heard centered on the fact that an unknown user (who is now known to be Paula Broadwell) was routinely logging into the DCI's personal email account and that alone is what set FBI cybercrime processes into high gear.

It would be more interesting, if somewhat improbable, that the initial FBI investigation had anything to do with information shared by Petraeus related to Benghazi, namely that the CIA presence was directly operating a "black site" for detaining/interrogating Al Qaeda affiliates and that the potential for compromising that site is why official assistance was denied to Amb. Stevens and the rest of the mission when they came under attack.

I mean "more interesting" of course from a wonky SFS-type perspective, obviously not from the giant-MacDill-nonstop-orgy perspective that resulted in more primetime news references to Afghanistan than was observed in the last 3 years combined.

[TC]

Nov 14, 2012 9:55:34 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

On a more substantive note, Robert Baer, F '76:

At the end of the CNN Anderson Cooper 360 (11/13, 8:12 p.m. EDT) segment, Baer added: "The FBI has every reason to look at this as a potential counterintelligence case. [Kelley's] foreign born. What are her connections? She claims Middle Eastern connections but doesn't specify. She's broke. They're on the verge of bankruptcy according to public records, and who is she? Who does she represent? As a former CIA officer, if I wanted to get into the U.S. military, I would go after somebody like that, what we call an 'access agent.'"

I may have missed it but I am surprised that more reporting hasn't discussed this angle. Not politically correct??

I'm going to just wager a guess that Jill Kelley, who was trying to shoo reporters off her lawn with "diplomatic inviolability" in the middle of all of this is probably not an agent of espionage.

talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/11/jill_kelley_an_embarrassment_to_honorary_consuls_e.php?ref=fpblg

She and her twin sister are a mess though - broke, running fake cancer charities, trying to get custody of kids through big time connections - I just assumed that was more just general being from Florida than anything.

[SSHoya]

TC, I don't disagree, but I think there is enough predication to open an investigation to make a determination. I believe they have been described as the Tampa version of the Kardashians. Her twin sister, btw, reportedly is a GULC grad and represents 'whistleblowers." The Salahis also come to mind.

[bmartin]

I don't understand what authority the FBI had to investigate the Allen - Kelley emails. There was no probable cause and still no hint of a crime that would be under the FBI's jurisdiction. No one has suggested that Jill Kelley had access to any classified information, so there was no security breach to investigate on that side.

[SSHoya]

bmartin, one may quarrel with Congress's wisdom in making cyberstalking/harassment a federal crime, but indeed it is:

www.ovw.usdoj.gov/aboutstalking.htm

Most FBI Field Offices have units and/or special agents trained/assigned to conduct these types of investigations.

[TC]

SS, how does that apply to the Allen/Kelley emails though?

[bmartin]

I am not arguing about the harrassing emails to Kelley from Broadwell, but even that was not really a cyberstalking case. There were no specific threats that rise to the level of a crime. The FBI would not investigate one woman telling another woman to back off her man if the man were not the Director of Intelligence or in a similarly sensitive position that raised security breach issues.

But my comment was about the Kelley/Allen emails. As far as we know, there were no threats, no stalking, no security breaches, no hint of any crime within FBI jurisdiction, and I would say no probable cause carry-over from the Broadwell emails to give the FBI blanket authority to investigate the emails between Gen. Allen and Jill Kelley.

It seems that the FBI printed out all the emails and turned them over to the DOD to investigate whether Allen breached military law by committing adultery, but where did the FBI get the authority to do that?

[SSHoya]

Two points:

1. The harassing e-mails from Broadwell to Kelley may have violated 47 USC 223(a)(1)(C), thus giving the FBI predication to initiate a preliminary investigation:

(a) Prohibited Acts generally

Whoever --

(1) In interstate or foreign communications --

(C) makes a telephone call or utilizes a telecommunications device, whether or not conversation or communication ensues, without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person at the called number or who receives the communication

shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than two years. or both.

Broadwell did not disclose her identity (I believe she identified herself as "KelleyPatrol" or some such moniker). The definitions section of the applicable code provision, 47 USC Section 223(h)(1)(C) defines "telecommunication device": "In the case of subparagraph (C) of subsection (a)(1) of this section, includes any device or software that can be used to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the internet, (as such term is defined in section 1104 of the Internet Tax Freedom Act (47 USC. Section 151). Thus, the alleged conduct of Broadwell was appropriately the subject of an FBI preliminary investigation since it was an anonymous e-mail harassing or threatening Kelley.

2. The FBI was examining Kelley's computer apparently with her consent since she alleged that she was the victim of a crime.

While the FBI did not have blanket authority to investigate any relationship between Kelley and Allen given her consent to the FBI to examine her computer, (and that sets aside the plain view doctrine whereby if the FBI were lawfully examining the computer files without consent and came across apparent e-mails suggesting an adulterous relationship) once they discovered the e-mails between her and Allen that may have suggested an adulterous relationship (which is a violation of the UCMJ but very difficult to prove) , the FBI, as I understand the facts, stood down, and appropriately referred it to the DOD Inspector General. In other words, the FBI is NOT investigating Gen. Allen for adultery but has turned it over to DOD to conduct its investigation since it has jurisdiction.

[bmartin]

Except it wasn't really enough threat to be a crime and there were never going to be any charges of harassment. Now they probably will keep snooping until they find some charge against Broadwell just to justify themselves.

The FBI does not investigate catty emails except apparently when an agent has been sending shirtless photos to the recipient and is trying to ingratiate himself and/or has a political agenda.

I worked for a Member of Congress and we got real threats from real crazy people, not silly like this. All it takes is for the FBI or the local police to pay a visit to let the sender know he/she crossed the line and is on the cops' radar and that would be the end of it. No need for open-ended cyber snooping. Go investigate some real crimes.

[SSHoya]

bmartin, it doesn't have to be a threat to be a crime, that's why I cited the statute. Did the e-mail have the intent to "annoy or harass"? As prima facie matter sure seems like it did. Understand, the FBI had predication to open the preliminary investigation which they did. You don't know that "there were never going to be any charges of harassment" until you actually investigate. Chances are, no federal prosecutor would have brought this case even if the FBI converted this from a preliminary investigation to a full investigation. I don't disagree that this type of thing is not typically prosecuted but within the the guidelines for opening a preliminary investigation it meets the test. The agent who brought this up -- his career is most likely over. There probably is an ASAC or SAC who will probably getting some heat for authorizing the preliminary investigation but it likely meets the predication necessary for opening a prelim investigation. I don't have time to wade through it but here is the DIOG that governs the FBI's investigations.

vault.fbi.gov/FBI%20Domestic%20Investigations%20and%20Operations%20Guide%20%28DIOG%29/fbi-domestic-investigations-and-operations-guide-diog-2011-version

[derhoya]

Some new details, if accurate/per CNNInternational, may better explain why the Allen/Kelley angle was investigated more heavily:

Apparently Paula, under the 'kelleypatrol' email tag emailed GEN Allen initially emailed Allen, warning him of Kelley's scandalous behavior, and to be mindful during an upcoming meeting involving DP scheduled for the following week. GEN Allen, thinking this is a joke, forwards this email to Kelley exclaiming something in line like "ROFL, LMAO, HILARIOUS (obnoxious smiley faces/emoticons)." [NOTE: my own assumption on that forward message] Kelley replies she has no idea what the heck the previous message was about. Thus the questions marks begin. Add in a couple more emails from 'Kelleypatrol' directly to Kelley in the following weeks = inquiry to the shirtless FBI guy (now named Frederick Humpheries).

What a soap opera. I have foreign military officers I work with asking me about this damn thing now!

[SSHoya]

If you work with any French officers, they are probably shaking their heads in amazement!

[Nevada Hoya]

Nov 14, 2012 2:20:18 GMT -5 derhoya said:

Class of '68 had quite the legacy:
1. Bill Clinton
2. Gloria Arroyo (she didn't graduate technically, she left after 2 yrs) - frmer Philippine President (her getting off on just stealing from the lottery is just a blip unfortunately)
3. Alfredo Cristani - frmer El Salvador President (initially connected to the 1989 massacre that left several Jesuit priests dead)

Yes, I am getting heat from my niece, a lawyer from the Philippines, over Gloria's attending Georgetown.

[EasyEd]

Guess Petraeus had a change of story on what happened at Benghazi. Of course, the president got what he wanted which was to keep this off the radar until after the election. And, by the way, without an ally in the press this wouldn't have been allowed to happen.

Now let's see, the official CIA talking point paper alluded to terrorist involvement but that got excised before Secretary Wright made her appearances on TV. Wonder who changed the talking points. And it seems to have disappeared further into the ether as the president continually refused to classify it as a terrorist act such as in his appearance on The View - all the while repeatedly spiking the football about Ben Laden and the demise of Al Queda.

Maybe the person who changed the talking points is the same as the yet unidentified person who approved Fast and Furious.

[quickplay]

Well time to jump to the next "scandal" - one of these will have to stick eventually!