TC
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Post by TC on Oct 2, 2012 8:43:48 GMT -5
If a 40 acre toxic waste dump built on a haunted Native American burial ground inhabited by multiple endangered species were available within the DC area, I think it would be something that GU should seriously consider buying. So many opportunities have been blown throughout the years and large chunks of land have become so scarce that GU should be springing on every opportunity it can afford, if not just for arbitrage at the absurdly low financing rates at the moment.
A 40 acre school with buildings, fields, zoning, and already existing programs that might rent out parts of the campus and that wants to sell to a University is the biggest no brainer in the history of the earth. So I think the chances that Georgetown will blow this are pretty high.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 2, 2012 9:25:13 GMT -5
A 40 acre school with buildings, fields, zoning, and already existing programs that might rent out parts of the campus and that wants to sell to a University is the biggest no brainer in the history of the earth. So I think the chances that Georgetown will blow this are pretty high. If the 40 acres were just up the road from the Main Campus, I'd say the chances would be 100%. I agree. If GU can get sizeable parcels of land in DC or nearby (at reasonable terms), it should do so.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on Oct 2, 2012 13:09:11 GMT -5
Besides the obvious need for athletic fields (which IMO, if in Silver Spring, is too far for the undergrad athletes to travel on a day to day basis without sacrificing their academic lives), what else does Georgetown REALLY need?
I'm personally afraid we are growing too much. Why do we need to be that much bigger than we already are? Is this growth sustainable? Or, is there a risk that we may not be able to sustain such a large size in the future? Should we rather focus on improving the quality of what we already have?
I only am thinking about this because lesser-ranked private, Jesuit universities are now having to grapple with eliminating departments and cutting programs because they cannot financially sustain them - some programs just cost too much money and private universities can't keep raising tuition the way they have in the past because the their students are now flocking to the public universities. While Georgetown may not have this demand problem now, there may come a point where the best middle class students (read: those whose families get no financial help and truly sacrifice to pay tuition) would all rather chose a public institution over paying Georgetown tuition. Where would that leave the Georgetown student body? Not very socioeconomically diverse: Very wealthy and very poor, and not much in between. We would start losing out on some of the best students, which would substantially hurt the university.
So we have our spots abroad (totally cool), the law campus downtown, and main campus. SCS is moving downtown next year or the year after. The campus is as fragmented as, I think, it should be. Moving more programs (spare the medical school, which could be anywhere with a hospital), would truly hurt the community feel of Georgetown. If visitation or GW's Mount Vernon opened up - that would be a no-brainer. This is just too far away.
I'm not saying I'm right about all of this, and I really don't know enough about the future of the university to make any informed judgments about possible development. I just think these questions need to be asked.
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Post by hilltopper2000 on Oct 2, 2012 14:01:16 GMT -5
"If . . . GW's Mount Vernon opened up - that would be a no-brainer." If only.....
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 2, 2012 14:37:47 GMT -5
I'm personally afraid we are growing too much. Why do we need to be that much bigger than we already are? Is this growth sustainable? Asides from the bleeding heart "you can't do that to the nuns" argument, I feel like that's the sort of short sighted argument that cost us Visitation. And look how much space has been needed since 1993. Credit is so cheap right now, that I don't think you could go wrong buying it if the price is reasonable, especially with the fact that you have an organization that wants to rent some of the space. If they don't have a need for it in the future, would Georgetown really have a tough time unloading 47 acres in Silver Spring? If you don't buy space now, what are your options in the future - build more on campus? Where? This is one of those problems where the answer to when Georgetown should have bought is always going to be yesterday - if the University had bought land in the 60's, the 70's, the 80's or the 90's, they would have found a use for it. Same with this. Schools don't have to pay taxes, so other than capital maintenance, I'm not sure how this could turn out to be some huge unmanageable money sink.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Oct 2, 2012 15:53:11 GMT -5
I have some sympathy for Lizziebeth's sentiments regarding remote expansion. I agree that the only move that is all-positive is moving the Med Center and chool to a remote site thereby freeing up that space for academic and athletic campus use. The entire idea of breaking up the undergrad students and activities to remote non-walkable sites doesn't sit well. If we can get a 6-8K arena on campus where the medical school currently is that's fantastic. If not, I think the benefits of having a smaller and presumably cheaper arena in Silver Spring or whatever start to look very limited but still at considerably high cost. Frankly if we are going to play most of our hoops games off campus, they might as well be at Verizon. But if we can free up space by moving the med center for more academic/residential/athletic facilities on actual campus then I think that is a no-brainer.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 2, 2012 18:00:25 GMT -5
Even if the hospital and Medical Center were to decamp for St. Elizabeth's or some other locale, I don't know that there's enough space on the Hilltop to comfortably house our almost 30 varsity sports (plus all the club sports, intramurals, etc.). Fields just plain take up a lot of space, and space is the most precious resource in Georgetown. The concerns about Silver Spring being far away are valid... but we have plenty of teams scattered great distances as is. The baseball team plays up in Bethesda, the field hockey team has alternated between playing at American and at UMD, the sailing team has to travel regardless, golf ditto, etc. So it wouldn't be that big of a change from that status quo.
Undergrads will remain on the Hilltop, as will many other things. The Public Policy Institute (which was supposed to become a full-fledged school at some point and presumably still might) can be kicked downtown without too much difficulty. There are also a pretty large number of more-or-less self-contained, portable centers, institutions, and units that might be comfortably housed at a place like the NLRC. The Kalmanovitz Initiative for Labor and the Working Poor (http://lwp.georgetown.edu), anyone? The University is teeming with such bodies.
The concerns about growth that Lizziebeth raises cannot be dismissed outright, as the "Higher Ed Bubble" talk grows in volume each day. However, unlike just about all of its Jesuit and Catholic brethren (Notre Dame and BC being the main exceptions), GU has the brand name and money in the bank that shields it from many of the forces buffeting other universities. Enough people will be willing to continue paying top dollar for the Georgetown brand name on their diploma. That's assuming, of course, that the entire educational loan system doesn't collapse. $500 million of the new campaign is going to scholarships specifically to prevent this "the very rich and the very poor" stratification that Lizziebeth warns about.
At the end of the day, I think this campus is definitely an opportunity worth exploring and pursuing. There just aren't a lot of big tracts left inside the Beltway, and following GW's lead out to Ashburn or what have you strikes me as a much bigger departure from our roots, both geographically and philosophically.
Some college sports - field hockey, track, and tennis come to mind - just are not going to be big attendance draws, and they're not drawing any attendance to campus now as it is. Might as well try to find them a good, modern, University-owned home, co-located with a larger University presence.
I would love nothing more than for GWU to have to sell off Mount Vernon to us, but that ship has sailed (again, assuming the college loan system doesn't go kaboom). This may very well be the geographically closest realistic alternative to that.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Oct 2, 2012 18:14:35 GMT -5
Is there something preventing us from going in on a joint venture with the District to re-do the entire Duke Ellington Field/Track that is already used by Georgetown on a part time basis?
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Oct 2, 2012 23:14:49 GMT -5
The Georgetown neighborhood groups would sooner chain themselves to McDonough than allow something like that to happen. The chances of any new facility getting built on campus that would host men's basketball at anything greater than the current frequency (once per year during a very off-peak time) is effectively zero. I defer to your expertise on these types of things, and I generally stay away from all the ANC stuff on this board--mostly because it's so damn frustrating to me. But aren't we already zoned to have like 5K people or so on campus for a sporting event in (theoretically) completed MSF? We really do need something better for convocation, graduation and women's games, leaving men's hoops aside. I am not talking something Comcast Center-esque, I am thinking more of a renovated McDonough.... Once all the offices on either side of the gym are in the IAC, push back those 2 side walls and put in some legitimate seating going much higher in the gym... Something like that seems fairly basic but would at least give us some options, and really doesn't seem like a lot to ask for. But again I defer to your knowledge of just how ridiculous these people can be. As far as the distance to Silver Spring I also think Lizziebeth's points are valid. And it's important for us to not just advocate this purchase because we botched a few other potential purchases in the past and don't want to look back with regret on yet another missed land grab. Need to evaluate the merits of this purchase on its own and there are definitely 2 sides to consider. One other thing to think about.... this might sound kind of "far out" right now, but I think we could be in for a bit of a transportation revolution within the next few decades. These self-driving cars are being tested pretty heavily in Michigan now and are legally on the road in Cali. Combine that technology with the ubiquity of GPS technology and the rise of intelligent transportation systems, and I think some of our assumptions about getting from A to B may be pretty drastically altered in the years and decades to come. What is currently an arduous 30 minute (or more) bus ride each way out to Silver Spring may become a not-so-bad 10 or 15 minute trip each way. Again that's all theoretical at this time, but worth at least a thought IMO. If you're potentially making a purchase like this that you're going to hold onto for decades to come, you have to at least consider that some of the assumptions you're relying on now will be changing over that time. Trying to contemplate what those changes will be and what their consequences will be can drive you mad, but doing a good job of it makes all the difference in the world. Pretty safe to say that at many moments in its history, Georgetown has not fared particularly well in this department.
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nodak89
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Post by nodak89 on Oct 3, 2012 9:34:46 GMT -5
Can we buy the Silver Spring property and swap it with the sisters for Visitation?
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Post by HometownHoya on Oct 3, 2012 14:02:34 GMT -5
I really hope we get this. A better (real) home for baseball and field hockey. A new home for tennis, including a mini-competition court/stadium/locker-rooms (does NCAA tennis only play on hard court?). The university has said that they would use the buildings as a conference space, plus I'm sure a few grad or SCS class could be held up there. Finally, the current owners (a trade school) still wishes to rent the space, or a partnership, so that would provide either income or a discount and I'm sure they would take care of much of the maintenance.
Yes campus is spreading out but the undergrad is still on main campus. The draw of our grad programs are the quality of the programs themselves and DC. The campus itself is more of an undergrad incentive, especially since majority of grad students don't live in University housing.
While I don't think this new location would become a new home to the hospital and med school, finding them a new home would be the next step in the next 30 years. Ideally, the DC government would help us start a new hospital in areas that need one (SE), enabling us to utilize the hospital and parking areas for more undergrad purposes (maybe a full fledged science department). I hope they'd keep the med-den buildings...I love their architecture.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 3, 2012 22:38:02 GMT -5
Is there something preventing us from going in on a joint venture with the District to re-do the entire Duke Ellington Field/Track that is already used by Georgetown on a part time basis? Nevada can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the footprint is too small to fit a regulation track+field. I defer to your expertise on these types of things, and I generally stay away from all the ANC stuff on this board--mostly because it's so damn frustrating to me. But aren't we already zoned to have like 5K people or so on campus for a sporting event in (theoretically) completed MSF? We really do need something better for convocation, graduation and women's games, leaving men's hoops aside. I am not talking something Comcast Center-esque, I am thinking more of a renovated McDonough.... Once all the offices on either side of the gym are in the IAC, push back those 2 side walls and put in some legitimate seating going much higher in the gym... Something like that seems fairly basic but would at least give us some options, and really doesn't seem like a lot to ask for. But again I defer to your knowledge of just how ridiculous these people can be. A renovated McDonough would fly. "Something better for convocation, graduation and women's games, leaving men's hoops aside" would fly. Something that would bring 10k people to Georgetown for a men's game would not fly; indeed, I'm pretty sure nothing that would expand the usage of the McDonough space beyond the current dead-of-December one/two games a year would stand a chance. And, honestly, I can see their point - adding a couple thousand cars to the Georgetown streets on a weeknight, or even a weekend, would be pretty nuts.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Oct 4, 2012 3:00:25 GMT -5
Is there something preventing us from going in on a joint venture with the District to re-do the entire Duke Ellington Field/Track that is already used by Georgetown on a part time basis? Nevada can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the footprint is too small to fit a regulation track+field. I'll chime in as Nevada's long-time surrogate - this is correct. I think this Silver Spring campus could prove to be useful, if we can use them in the right way. A baseball field, field hockey field, and regulation track that we could call all our own would be a great thing for three programs currently housed off-campus. The commute would be a bitch, but at the same time, these programs are already commuting. Trading that land with Visitation? Ah, I love that idea, what a dream... but only a dream.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 21, 2013 21:16:19 GMT -5
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on May 23, 2013 16:32:44 GMT -5
I have overlooked this thread for a long time. It offered a good opportunity for Georgetown, who has missed the boat on several times in the past. Thank you to my surrogate, CAHoya07, for answering the question about the track. I attended one of the track practices in October at the Ellington track. I think it measures five laps to the mile, instead of the standard 400m track. The track only has about six lanes, and, when I was there, the distance men were going one way, the sprinters were going another direction around the track, and halfway through the workout, so neighborhood girls were also using the track, going the same direction as the sprinters. So, yes, if this property offered GU the opportunity to get a regulation track, the university should have been on it.
If the WaPo article is true, it is a similar situation that has happened with the Crystal Cathedral in Orange, CA. Chapman college and the diocese of Orange were both bidding on the cathedral. Eventually, the diocese won and it will serve as their cathedral starting in a year or two.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 27, 2013 20:11:31 GMT -5
With the campus master planning process still ongoing, my guess is that the University wasn't ready to pull the trigger on this without knowing exactly how it would fit into their plans, which are not yet set. Also, 47 acres right off the Beltway don't come cheap - I don't know that the University is in a position to commit those kinds of funds right now.
Having said that, there aren't exactly a lot of available parcels left for "The Next 100 Acres" within remotely-convenient distance of Main Campus, and I have a hard time seeing a plan to put up a bunch of athletic fields at St. Elizabeth's get approved. So... Loudoun County here we come?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 28, 2013 12:57:13 GMT -5
Having said that, there aren't exactly a lot of available parcels left for "The Next 100 Acres" within remotely-convenient distance of Main Campus, and I have a hard time seeing a plan to put up a bunch of athletic fields at St. Elizabeth's get approved. So... Loudoun County here we come? I don't see any interest by Georgetown in Loudoun or even Prince William counties--they are largely inaccessible to students and figure to be nondescript properties amidst the sprawl. A satellite campus that's closer to Harpers Ferry than Wisconsin and M just isn't a priority. The hiring of Michael Durso, the DC government's lead on the Poplar Point project, sends a message Georgetown is serious about that land and to enter into a partnership with the District to develop it before it turns into a generic office park or a Wal-Mart regional distribution center. Yes, it's still a rough neighborhood (Barry Farm is next door) but 110 acres along a river doesn't come available every century. If Georgetown really wants 100+ acres within the same area code, there are really only three choices: 1)Poplar Point (Anacostia), 2) Reservation 13 (RFK Stadium area), or St. Elizabeth's. All have Metrorail access and all have the implicit opportunirty to work with the DC government for funding and/or construction. A very best-case scenario in 20 years would have four distinct and technology-interconnected campuses, all within the District: Hilltop (undergraduate), Law Center, Downtown (graduate, public policy and continuing studies), and Anacostia (Medical) with mixed-use classrooms and housing at each. With the gentrification and retail transformation of the Green Line in just the last 10 years, who's to say that kids in the 2030's wouldn't mind living amidst the shops and retail at Mount Vernon Square, or walking across the bridge from a Nationals game to housing overlooking the Capitol at Poplar Point (an 11 minute ride on the Metro between them) versus an aging Darnall or Harbin?
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 7, 2013 11:04:32 GMT -5
I agree that something out in rural Virginia, like what GW has done with Ashburn, would be very out of character and inappropriate for Georgetown. I am hopeful that the hiring of people like Robin Morey and Michael Durso will lead to much better strategic thinking on these matters, compared with years past. If the purpose of hiring Durso really was to gain a leg up in the Poplar Point contest, then that is an unusually savvy (maybe even slightly Machiavellian) move for the University. At the end of the day, though, these sorts of decisions are made by the politicians, not the professional staff. Given DC's pay-to-play culture, it would surprise me if anything other than commercial development was selected for all those sites. St. Elizabeth's East would be the one exception. Speaking of which, responses to the RFEI are due July 26th. Will Georgetown be among the submissions? I sure hope so, though I haven't heard anything about it one way or another. We do seem like the natural choice at the moment for an institutional presence there. GW already has a second major campus, not to mention all of their other various holdings around the area, and they're coming off one enormous project with the Square 54 development and currently have two major projects ongoing, the School of Public Health & Health Services (Square 39) and the Science & Engineering Hall (Square 55). American has their hands full with the redevelopment of Tenley Campus, and I don't think they're in a financial position to pull off a huge new campus at St. E's. Howard remains an administrative basket case and cannot develop land next door that they already own (see Howard Town Center), much less a huge new parcel. CUA is occupied with the Monroe Street Market project - I cannot imagine them having the capacity to pull something this big off, and I have a hard time picturing the city picking a school like Catholic for it. Who else does that leave? Gallaudet? Hopkins? Some for-profit? A military school (not bloody likely, given what's happening to their budgets)? I think that if we're interested, we have to be the prime contender.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Jun 14, 2013 13:45:19 GMT -5
A few things:
1) GW is also constructing a new museum and recently received approval for a new office building and for a new residence hall as well. They have sixteen development sites and twenty years to build them, so they are cranking them out.
2) I say this with honestly zero knowledge of anyone's plans, but never underestimate GW or AU's appetites.
3) Speaking of shrewd hires, AU hired Linda Argo, the former head of DCRA who was brought in by Fenty to clean up the agency (and largely did improve it). That was a smart move.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jul 18, 2013 20:55:01 GMT -5
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