Baseball HoF Class of 2012

[Jack]

Barry Larkin is in. And deservedly so for one of my favorite players of the 90s. But what do Tim Raines, Jeff Bagwell, and Alan Trammell have to do to get people to pay attention to their cases? There is simply no reasonable case against any of those guys, their omission can only be explained by laziness (or pure insidious speculation in Bagwell's case).

Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Jack Morris, Lee Smith, the steroid guys, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly were also great players at one time or another, but you can see the holes in their resumes. Morris will probably get in somehow, but the ballot is getting really crowded (and very interesting) the next few seasons, and I worry that Raines, Bagwell, and Trammell might somehow slip through the cracks. It is still unbelievable that Lou Whittaker got almost no consideration.

[hoyarooter]

Jan 9, 2012 16:49:24 GMT -5 Jack said:

Barry Larkin is in. And deservedly so for one of my favorite players of the 90s. But what do Tim Raines, Jeff Bagwell, and Alan Trammell have to do to get people to pay attention to their cases? There is simply no reasonable case against any of those guys, their omission can only be explained by laziness (or pure insidious speculation in Bagwell's case).

Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Jack Morris, Lee Smith, the steroid guys, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly were also great players at one time or another, but you can see the holes in their resumes. Morris will probably get in somehow, but the ballot is getting really crowded (and very interesting) the next few seasons, and I worry that Raines, Bagwell, and Trammell might somehow slip through the cracks. It is still unbelievable that Lou Whittaker got almost no consideration.

I agree with all of this, except that I am confident that Raines and Bagwell will get in. I think Raines, in particular, is just as deserving as Larkin. I'm also a strong supporter of Trammell, but he has a tough road ahead. Morris is interesting, since he only has two more shots in what will be two very crowded fields, but no one has ever reached his vote level without getting in.

[DFW HOYA]

Some thoughts from SI.com. Didn't realize so few have actually got in via the BBWAA.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tom_verducci/01/09/barry.larkin.hall.of.fame/index.html

[SFHoya99]

Yep - and because you have to be rejected by the BBWA, the 100 or so they put in are clearly just about 100 best. Every once in a while they make a mistake to their own standards, but the vast majority of Veteran's Committee guys are CLEARLY below the BBWA standard.

This current era is going to be different, though, if the BBWA insists on accusing without accusing (Bagwell).

[SFHoya99]

Also, in that article, Verducci basically said that he would not vote for Babe Ruth for the Hall of Fame.

"Some people will vote for them if they believe "they were great players before they started juicing." That kind of thinking condones steroid use based on talent -- that a voter endorses players corrupting the basic fairness of the game and the record book as long as they reached some nebulous level of achievement. When did it become okay for Bonds to get on the most meticulous, scientific PED regimen in documented history that made the home run record inauthentic? Three hundred homers? Four hundred?"

Ruth, of course, got caught corking his bat. Hank Aaron took amphetamines to improve performance (and so probably did Mantle and Mays).

Gaylord Perry cheated as much as he could get away with.

If you want to make a moral stand, I'm all for it. But it's time to call for people to be kicked out. Oh, and EVERY sportswriter who withheld information because it would hurt his chances of getting another quote. Wait, that's every fricking one.

[DFW HOYA]

The BBWAA has sent a message that those athletes that lied or obfuscated their way through the Steroid Era find no support from them--specifically, Bonds, Palmeiro, Sosa, Clemens, and McGwire. Caught in the cloud of suspicion is something that Bagwell must deal with.

The untold story of this era is pitching. Norm Hitzges (a local Dallas radio host who had a brief run with ESPN in the 1990's) argues that while hitters got plenty of suspicion for juicing, a pitcher could gain a tremendous advantage on the margin with steroids without the need to bulk up and "look" the part of an abuser. Outside of Clemens, most of the star pitchers of the 1990's escaped this scrutiny, though as late as 2005, a majority of steroid offenses in the minors came from pitchers.

Life isn't fair. The BBWAA isn't fair. And baseball will never be fair with Allan Selig at the helm. He's the single worst commissioner since Eckert. Then again, I'm still wondering why Joe Jackson's lifetime ban from the HOF has nonetheless continued 60 years after his death.

[SFHoya99]

Life isn't fair is a reality, but it's a pretty lame argument.

As for Bagwell, he's been up front about his usage -- yes he may be hiding something, but this isn't Raffy Palmeiro here. It's a joke that a bunch of loser sportswriters -- most of whom think "journalism" is merely repeating what team management and ownership tell them -- feel they are qualified to say someone took steroids and another didn't because what, they eat hot dogs in the press booth and pretend they are medical professionals?

As you say: more offenses came from pitchers. Just as many offenses came from scrawny MI than burly outfielders. So why is it assumed Derek Jeter is somehow clean while Jeff Bagwell is not.

Why? Because the members of the BBWA who didn't vote for Bagwell are COWARDS. You want to accuse the man? Do it in public so he can respond. Don't pull this whisper campaign crap.

And if you think you know something from rumor -- how the F*** did you not know it in 1998? Here's the thing: you did, but you were too big a coward to do anything about it then.

Here's the dirty little secret about the BBWA and steroids: every active member knew. They all knew. There was no way NOT to know. Only someone intentionally shutting their eyes didn't know -- and that's a lot of them. Because how can I get a quote if I Edited off so and so? And I add no value without quotes! I have no real writing skills or insight otherwise! They enabled everything then pass judgement in retrospect.

It's a joke. Baseball management knew. Journalists knew. And now they condemn Jeff Bagwell for doing something that was not prohibited by the game until his peak years were over anyway? Gimme a break.

[HoyaFanNY]

as a lifelong reds fan i am very happy for larkin. a true professional on and off the field. the problem with the process is the voters. this is their last laugh on all the players they think 'cheated' the game or players they didn't like. yet, they allow gaylord perry and phil niekro in the hall. bagwell was best buds with caminiti. they assume guilt by association. the entire HOF is a model of hypocrisy. don't let pete rose in but make money off him by showcasing his memorabilia.

[Elvado]

With Ron Santo and Barry Larkin now in, it is officially the Hall of Pretty Good. A joke.

[Jack]

Jan 14, 2012 5:57:45 GMT -5 Elvado said:

With Ron Santo and Barry Larkin now in, it is officially the Hall of Pretty Good. A joke.

Really, this is your Rubicon with the HoF? Granted, neither Larkin nor Santo is a candidate for the Willie Mays Hall of Fame, but surely both are more deserving than the likes of Pee Wee Reese, Luis Aparicio, Phil Rizzuto, and Rabbit Marranville. And I agree that using past bad decisions as the standard is not the proper precedent to set, but Larkin seems to be comfortably in the top half of short stops in Cooperstown. Santo is a better choice than virtually any player selected by a veterans committee in the past 40 years, with the exception of unfairly neglected Negro Leaguers, and he becomes only the 14th third baseman in the Hall.

[Elvado]

Ron Santo was elected because he died after a long career as a beloved broadcaster. Case closed. Larkin was elected because there was no one else on the ballot even remotely worthy and the Juice boys all hbit the ballot next year. As fo Rizzuto's worthiness, I'll leave that to the frozen head of Ted Williams who always opined that Rizzuto made the Yankees winners. Can not be said for Santo nor Larkin.

[TC]

Barry Larkin has about the career WAR of Derek Jeter and Luke Appling - and one higher than Ozzie Smith, Lou Boudreau, or Joe Cronin. He's a Top 10 all time SS.

And for people who don't like #'s, he was a 12 time AS, an MVP, and has a ring.

[Elvado]

I can see Larkin, maybe. At no point in his career was he ever the best SS in baseball. His hit total lacks but I can see it in a year without worthy candidates. Santo is a joke. Dying as he did was his primary credential.

[hoya9797]

Santo is clearly worthy. He was every bit as good as Brooks Robinson (3.5 fewer WAR in eight fewer seasons) and nobody doubts his credentials. Sanyo is a player best appreciated through a sabermetric lense. If that's not your thing, I can understand why you think Santo is a joke. But, you're wrong.

[hoya9797]

And, the idea that nobody was worthy this year is crazy. Bagwell, Raines, and Trammell should have made it as well. That they aren't already in is the joke.

[Elvado]

You are all making the point that it should be the Hall of Pretty Good. The bar goes lower and lower.

[hoya9797]

I disagree that the guys listed are just pretty good.

[Elvado]

We will agree to disagree.