theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Nov 28, 2011 5:22:09 GMT -5
It's amazing that Boeheim and Syracuse are given every benefit of the doubt when Joe Paterno and the Penn State program were immediately destroyed by the media and internet lynch mob. Where's the outrage and indignation at Boeheim and Syracuse? It is not at all on the same level as that that was given to Penn State and Paterno. Syracuse has one of the top, if not top sports journalism schools in the country. The Syracuse controlled sports media and ESPN (Pro ACC and full of Syracuse grads) are doing everything they can to see that Syracuse survives this while Penn State's program is destroyed. Can we can stop the conspiracy theories? The first thing that came out of Penn State was a damning report from the state's attorney general. It included the fact that McQueary walked in on Sandusky raping a kid in the shower and that he told Paterno almost ten years ago, after which Paterno did very little. Syracuse does not have a smoking gun yet. Boeheim is not officially linked to this and the report is from three separate accusers. There's more than enough info to fire Fine, but there's no proof as of yet that the Syracuse basketball program was rotten. EDIT - Firing Boeheim for his comments is possible (the same way you could fire someone at a business for saying something impolitic), but it doesn't seem like a slam dunk with the current amount of information.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 28, 2011 6:10:18 GMT -5
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Nov 28, 2011 7:06:23 GMT -5
On the front page there is a story about fine being fired from cuse. It is interesting adn VERY SAD if true that espn HAD the tape with his wife talking to one of the accusers from eight years ago and if i am reading it correctly that they HELD THE TAPE FOR EIGHT YEARS.. not a lawyer but i do wonder if espn has any legal repsonsility for not reporting that to authorities? I certainly think they had a MORAL repsonsibilty but lawyers out there any legal repsonsility. i thought EVERYONE has a duty to report in most states ... interested in your thoughts but VERY SAD situation very sad.. the power of sports interfering with protecting our children.
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lichoya68
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OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Nov 28, 2011 7:07:04 GMT -5
interfering AGAIN
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 28, 2011 8:20:19 GMT -5
Pretty vanilla reporting for a guy with a major conflict of interest.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 28, 2011 10:05:01 GMT -5
I'm not a courtroom and this isn't a criminal trial, so the shadow of doubt thing is out of play.
Boeheim worked closely with a probable child molester for 35 years, including many a road trip. They are close friends. Perhaps he never saw anything explicit, but the idea that he never wondered or saw/heard anything suspicious or worrisome is somewhat ridiculous, especially when a couple of the accusers say he saw them in Fine's hotel room on road trips.
If Boeheim "didn't know" it's because he tried hard not to know.
Articles like Doyel's drive me nuts. Whether it's Joe Paterno, Kobe Bryant, Kirby Puckett, or Jim Boeheim, YOU DON'T KNOW THESE PEOPLE. Just because they give you a snarky quote or seem wonderful doesn't mean they won't wont't rape someone or watch as child abuse goes on under their noses.
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Thamel's article reads like a defense of Syracuse and Boeheim, barely mentioning abuse but spending substantial time on questions on the accusers. For a person whose articles are usually sensationalistic in nature, it sure seems like he is trying to keep down the hype here. Perhaps it is simply because he has no first hand info -- it's not his research. Perhaps not.
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FrazierFanatic
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 28, 2011 10:11:59 GMT -5
I was in Syracuse over the holiday visiting my in-laws, and it was an interesting atmosphere, especially yesterday. The level of denial on the part of the fan base is monumental. But one point that bothers me about the Boeheim part of the equation, that does not seem to be getting much play: the various allegations of Davis seem to be supported by the tape of Fine's wife, so at this point I tend to believe him, which also gives credibility to his stepbrother - and if their claims are true, it means that Fine was taking 12 and 15 year-old kids on road trips and recruiting trips, and possibly even staying in the same room with them. How could this have escaped Boeheim's attention, with a guy who has been such a close friend for 40 years? Now maybe he talked to Fine about it and Fine explained it away in a believable fashion, but it still would rasie a giant red flag in most people's minds.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 28, 2011 10:40:18 GMT -5
It's amazing that Boeheim and Syracuse are given every benefit of the doubt when Joe Paterno and the Penn State program were immediately destroyed by the media and internet lynch mob. Where's the outrage and indignation at Boeheim and Syracuse? It is not at all on the same level as that that was given to Penn State and Paterno. Syracuse has one of the top, if not top sports journalism schools in the country. The Syracuse controlled sports media and ESPN (Pro ACC and full of Syracuse grads) are doing everything they can to see that Syracuse survives this while Penn State's program is destroyed. Can we can stop the conspiracy theories? The first thing that came out of Penn State was a damning report from the state's attorney general. It included the fact that McQueary walked in on Sandusky raping a kid in the shower and that he told Paterno almost ten years ago, after which Paterno did very little. Syracuse does not have a smoking gun yet. Boeheim is not officially linked to this and the report is from three separate accusers. There's more than enough info to fire Fine, but there's no proof as of yet that the Syracuse basketball program was rotten. EDIT - Firing Boeheim for his comments is possible (the same way you could fire someone at a business for saying something impolitic), but it doesn't seem like a slam dunk with the current amount of information. I agree that we need to restrain ourselves before we veer off into Protocols of the Elders of Orange territory. At the same time, the thought has crossed my mind - and I'm sure others' as well - that it would not be at all surprising if at least one member of the Newhouse Mafia was furiously cross-referencing the list of known Catholic priest molesters with the record of every Jesuit to have been at Georgetown over the past 50 years. Misery loves company, and the angle practically writes itself: "Bitter rivals on the court share shameful secret off of it;" "They shared the Big East spotlight for three decades, but who knew what was happening when the lights went off?" etc. ad nauseum.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on Nov 28, 2011 10:58:19 GMT -5
I was in Syracuse over the holiday visiting my in-laws, and it was an interesting atmosphere, especially yesterday. The level of denial on the part of the fan base is monumental. But one point that bothers me about the Boeheim part of the equation, that does not seem to be getting much play: the various allegations of Davis seem to be supported by the tape of Fine's wife, so at this point I tend to believe him, which also gives credibility to his stepbrother - and if their claims are true, it means that Fine was taking 12 and 15 year-old kids on road trips and recruiting trips, and possibly even staying in the same room with them. How could this have escaped Boeheim's attention, with a guy who has been such a close friend for 40 years? Now maybe he talked to Fine about it and Fine explained it away in a believable fashion, but it still would rasie a giant red flag in most people's minds. I was also in he__ (Syracuse) this weekend (kidding, its actually not that bad) and it seems that its 50/50 from those I spoke with. A lot of people are turning on Boeheim, or at least their loyalty is not unwavering as it used to be. The ones that are supporting him are still in disbelief. Its a complete circus up there, and a lot of people want answers sooner than they will be able to get them.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Nov 28, 2011 11:32:01 GMT -5
He is going down. This will continue to blow up and it looks like the police investigation was garbage. Imagine if JoePa went to the police and they squashed the investigation because of loyalties to the program. That is what appears to have happened here.
People were so quick to trash PSU and Cuse is getting a bit of a pass. The primary difference is one was a former employee who was provided access and the other was a current employee who was taking advantage of kids within the program.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Nov 28, 2011 12:30:31 GMT -5
I was in Syracuse over the holiday visiting my in-laws, and it was an interesting atmosphere, especially yesterday. The level of denial on the part of the fan base is monumental. But one point that bothers me about the Boeheim part of the equation, that does not seem to be getting much play: the various allegations of Davis seem to be supported by the tape of Fine's wife, so at this point I tend to believe him, which also gives credibility to his stepbrother - and if their claims are true, it means that Fine was taking 12 and 15 year-old kids on road trips and recruiting trips, and possibly even staying in the same room with them. How could this have escaped Boeheim's attention, with a guy who has been such a close friend for 40 years? Now maybe he talked to Fine about it and Fine explained it away in a believable fashion, but it still would rasie a giant red flag in most people's minds. This is exactly the point that disturbed me the most since the story broke. When Davis's story was uncorroborated, I was hoping that he would prove to be full of it, first because I hate for stories like this to be true, and second, if it is true, it would mean that Boeheim is in big, big trouble. We may all mock Syracuse, but I still hate to see Boeheim go down like this, just as I hope most Syracuse fans would not have wanted Pops to go down like this if the situation were reversed.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Nov 28, 2011 12:43:44 GMT -5
At this point in time, the difference between PSU and Cuse is the following:
PSU We first learned about the PSU mess when the AG released a 27 page Grand Jury report that was the result of a three year investigation. It had all kinds of info, details and supporting documentation, at least 8 victims, and it named names including Joe Pa, the AD and PSU's Sr. VP.
'CUSE Re: 'Cuse, the first we learned was a report from a 37 year old man claiming abuse from decades ago. Next, his step-brother confirmed that story. At that point it clearly raised questions, but there was all kinds of doubt -- unlike the PSU Grand Jury report.
Next steps -- Boeheim's defense of his friend, then more details, a third man claiming to be a victim, and... most damaging... an audio taped interview from years ago on which Mrs. Bernie Fine acknowledges the basics and added that she too had sex with victim # 1, though not until he was 18 (I am assuming that was legal, though clearly bad form)
Conclusion We have no idea how either situation will turn out, though the PSU one looks like an open and shut case and had tons of validated evidence to support it. Chances are lots more dirty details will be revealed. PSU has already fired most key players. This will take a long time to play out.
The 'Cuse situation is in the earliest stages and the investigation is just beginning. Clearly, it looks really really bad, and promises to get a lot worse. But as far as the media treating PSU harshly and 'Cuse lightly -- I don't see it that way. Let's see what happens as the Cuse situation unfolds with investigations by Govt. agencies AND various media.
Can Boeheim survive? So far his worst offense was calling two of the alleged victims -- "liars seeking money" - in a misguided attempt to defend his friend. Is that enough for him to lose his job after 4 decades? He did withdraw that statement and apologize within days as more info became available. Do you lose your job over one statement? Or is some other solution - fine, suspension, public service, whatever... more appropriate?
However, if we learn more and it appears Jimmy B knew "or should have known"? All bets are off.
Bottom Line I don't see the media treating the two schools differently. I see two different situations (at least so far) that are being treated appropriately, although Situation # 2 is accelerating and might end up looking a lot like Situation #1. And if we find out ESPN "sat on" that audio recording with the wife - well, Pandora's box will have just been opened.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 28, 2011 13:00:08 GMT -5
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Nov 28, 2011 13:39:51 GMT -5
The other interesting wrinkle for this is SSHoya's article. Syracuse's chancellor has a good reputation for sticking her neck out and not tolerating BS. Based on the wording of the firing of Fine, she may also be preparing to cut Boeheim loose, if needed.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Nov 28, 2011 13:46:05 GMT -5
Boeheim worked closely with a probable child molester for 35 years, including many a road trip. They are close friends. Perhaps he never saw anything explicit, but the idea that he never wondered or saw/heard anything suspicious or worrisome is somewhat ridiculous, especially when a couple of the accusers say he saw them in Fine's hotel room on road trips. If Boeheim "didn't know" it's because he tried hard not to know. I strongly disagree with this statement as well as the "guilt by association" assertion. You could be close with someone, spend time with them, go on road trips with them, and still never have any idea about what goes on. In defense of Boeheim, I can also understand having a knee-jerk "defense" of your friend when allegations first surface. As well as the all-too-human reaction of being in denial once it starts to crystallize as something more real. Probably why it is best in these situations to stay silent until the facts come out and the legal system runs its course, but easy to say when you're not in the media spotlight. To Boeheim's credit (or perhaps to his publicist's credit) once it did become more real Boeheim did correct himself.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Nov 28, 2011 14:09:20 GMT -5
Boeheim worked closely with a probable child molester for 35 years, including many a road trip. They are close friends. Perhaps he never saw anything explicit, but the idea that he never wondered or saw/heard anything suspicious or worrisome is somewhat ridiculous, especially when a couple of the accusers say he saw them in Fine's hotel room on road trips. If Boeheim "didn't know" it's because he tried hard not to know. I strongly disagree with this statement as well as the "guilt by association" assertion. You could be close with someone, spend time with them, go on road trips with them, and still never have any idea about what goes on. I think generally this is true. I don't believe it for a second when the person claiming no knowledge is the head basketball coach at a program like Syracuse. If he didn't know, it's because he chose to look the other way. The less dirty version of this is Calipari not knowing about Derrick Rose's SAT or Marcus Camby getting money.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on Nov 28, 2011 14:22:47 GMT -5
So, on the bright side, does this mean GMac will be an assistant coach through the end of the season?
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Nov 28, 2011 14:23:52 GMT -5
The other interesting wrinkle for this is SSHoya's article. Syracuse's chancellor has a good reputation for sticking her neck out and not tolerating BS. Based on the wording of the firing of Fine, she may also be preparing to cut Boeheim loose, if needed. The Chancellor also has an unpopular reputation in athletics circles.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 28, 2011 14:40:23 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with this statement as well as the "guilt by association" assertion. You could be close with someone, spend time with them, go on road trips with them, and still never have any idea about what goes on. In defense of Boeheim, I can also understand having a knee-jerk "defense" of your friend when allegations first surface. As well as the all-too-human reaction of being in denial once it starts to crystallize as something more real. Probably why it is best in these situations to stay silent until the facts come out and the legal system runs its course, but easy to say when you're not in the media spotlight. To Boeheim's credit (or perhaps to his publicist's credit) once it did become more real Boeheim did correct himself. And yet when Paterno said he didn't know, the internet mob was outraged. How could he not know when he knew Sandusky for over 40 years they cried. And then they beat the 80 year old Paterno on the internet and media and now he has cancer. The initial investigation of Fine was in 2003. It was conducted by the Syracuse police chief, Dennis Duval. Duval was a former Syracuse basketball player under Boeheim. And yet Boeheim knew nothing till Nov, 2011. Shocked I tell you, says an incredulous Boeheim.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Nov 28, 2011 15:04:34 GMT -5
I strongly disagree with this statement as well as the "guilt by association" assertion. You could be close with someone, spend time with them, go on road trips with them, and still never have any idea about what goes on. In defense of Boeheim, I can also understand having a knee-jerk "defense" of your friend when allegations first surface. As well as the all-too-human reaction of being in denial once it starts to crystallize as something more real. Probably why it is best in these situations to stay silent until the facts come out and the legal system runs its course, but easy to say when you're not in the media spotlight. To Boeheim's credit (or perhaps to his publicist's credit) once it did become more real Boeheim did correct himself. And yet when Paterno said he didn't know, the internet mob was outraged. How could he not know when he knew Sandusky for over 40 years they cried. And then they beat the 80 year old Paterno on the internet and media and now he has cancer. The initial investigation of Fine was in 2003. It was conducted by the Syracuse police chief, Dennis Duval. Duval was a former Syracuse basketball player under Boeheim. And yet Boeheim knew nothing till Nov, 2011. Shocked I tell you, says an incredulous Boeheim. As we learn more facts about whatever was previously known in 2003 this may be true. But I am responding to the bare assertion that simply being in close proximity to someone makes you aware of what's going on. It doesn't.
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