skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Nov 9, 2011 13:47:26 GMT -5
If this has been going on since 1994, I would think that it is closaer to 100 than 20 victims.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 9, 2011 14:16:08 GMT -5
A lot of PSU alumns shifted their giving from the catholic church after all the info came out about the priests cover-ups to other places including PSU which saw a marked increase in donations, how ironic. I'm finding it really hard to understand your posts. In one post you say that firing JoePa is a nonstarter because the alumni will stop giving, in another you talk about how alumni were so disgusted with an institution that covered up the sexual abuse of children that they shifted their giving elsewhere. Which is it? I can't see any alumni of any school doing anything but demanding his immediate resignation - especially those that gave money to the program.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Nov 9, 2011 14:19:30 GMT -5
I feel for McQueary. Paterno runs the program. You see that, you assume that Paterno will make everything right, because he's *Paterno*. If you see Sandusky around, you assume that Paterno talked, and it was horsing around - maybe you tell yourself you didn't see things right. You can rationalize a lot of things. It takes a lot of guts for a junior person to go against orders, which is why the parallel for this that springs to mind is cases in Vietnam where junior officers received illegal orders and yet felt massive pressure to carry them out. Some people refused and blew the whistle, but it's very hard. The blame has to go to Paterno. If you create a system where you run things, you have to run them right. Paterno did not. You might be the only one. His cowardice is the 2nd most ugly thing about this whole scandal. I guess he can form a support group with the residents of Kitty Genovese's apartment building and the Guangdong pedestrians
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Nov 9, 2011 14:25:09 GMT -5
TC, what is it you don't understand, boosters shifted money away from the church and so added to their PSU giving in support of the program, and now if the adminstration cans Joe, they'll shift it again. I'll shift my money to Stanford.
Of course you have to understand the PSU alumni base. Parents were blue collar, first generation to go to college, went to a campus that was equally un-assessable from all parts of PA, fall weekends were for football games and partying afterwards and they feel most of their success in life financially was because they graduated from PSU. Therefore, their tax deductible dollars go to PSU.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Nov 9, 2011 14:42:43 GMT -5
TC, what is it you don't understand, boosters shifted money away from the church and so added to their PSU giving in support of the program, and now if the adminstration cans Joe, they'll shift it again. I'll shift my money to Stanford. Of course you have to understand the PSU alumni base. Parents were blue collar, first generation to go to college, went to a campus that was equally un-assessable from all parts of PA, fall weekends were for football games and partying afterwards and they feel most of their success in life financially was because they graduated from PSU. Therefore, their tax deductible dollars go to PSU. Sounds like they'd be moving their donations away from PSU if they keep Paterno, not fire him. If they are consistent, one child abuse enabler should be the same as another.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Nov 9, 2011 14:45:05 GMT -5
If this has been going on since 1994, I would think that it is closaer to 100 than 20 victims. I'm friends with a girl who went to PSU and worked at Sandusky's camp for three years. She said that, every night, a boy who did well during the day was rewarded with some special "Jerry time" and got to go to his room alone for a couple hours. She said most nights was a different boy. I bet the real number is well into the hundreds.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Nov 9, 2011 14:49:49 GMT -5
What do you honestly suppose happens to the janitor or graduate assistant who reports this to the local/university police? Who are you going to believe, some peon or one of the guys who put your school on the map, took you to two national titles, and who has done so much for so many underprivileged children over the years?
I don't deny that the survival instinct could have played in. Maybe McQuerry considered what might happen to him if he came public with this. And maybe no one would believe him over Sandusky. That is a logical suggestion. But it still doesn't make it right. In fact, it only fuels the argument of coverup, whether or not McQuerry was an official "part" of it or not.
But regardless, I don't think that this line of reasoning matters. What do matter, are McQuerry's actions at the time, not hours days or weeks later. Most of us, at least would hope that we would rush to the aid of the endangered child. But even if not, wouldn't running out looking for help, trying to draw the attention of ANYONE be pretty much automatic? Again, most would want to believe that direct, personal intervention would have been our almost instinctual response. But if not, can any of us even comprehend the decision to leave and then, rather peacefully and hours later, discuss the incident with our father ... or anyone, for that matter?
Secondly, I think I might lighten up on Paterno a bit. My initial reaction was shock, but when as the hope for disbelief pretty much eroded away entirely, I had nothing but disgust for Paterno and his actions/inactions. As I think about it and weigh in more and more of what people have to say, maybe I did jump the gun.
Giga wrote:
Do I have to be the one to say it; I would not have called the cops either. Second hand information on a friend of mine for 30 years? Sorry, I wouldn't have. I would have let someone else investigate.
Every blogger and newspaper writer in America would have immediately called the police. Makes sense. I mean what's 30 years of friendship when you have what a grad assistant thought he saw in a locker room last night? Easy choice. Because if I'm wrong I only ruin a man and destroy a freindship. No worries.
And if they investigated and exonerated him? I would have kept pushing implying I think he's a pedophile and there's no way to tell me differently. No, no I wouldn't have.
I would have acted the same way as everyone in that brief, had lived with doubts and hopes it weren't true about my friend, and then probably want to throw myself off a bridge for a bit after I heard the worst was actually fact.
I appreciate your honesty, and it is easy to look at things after the facts and come up with a preferred cause of action. I don't necessarily "agree" with you, but I think you do make some good points. I don't know exactly what was said between McQuerry and Paterno. If he said flat out that he walked into the shower, and Sandusky was holding down a boy who looked to be about 10 years old as he violated him, then I don't think general skepticism is a logical response. But if McQuerry told him that he noticed Sandusky and a boy taking a shower together and that it looked like they were a little too friendly, then I can see how Paterno's response of passing the issue upline to the A.D. could have been a reasonable response. It still doesn't make it right, but within that framework, I do see your point.
Putting this all together, I think there are essentially 4 different levels of reaction.
The first is McQueary's immediate response. I think we all agree that he failed miserably and at the very, very best, could be viewed as a spineless worm.
The second would be McQueary's secondary response. Giving this more thought, I think Giga might have a good point. Maybe a trip to the police wouldn't have been as easy or obvious. (But I distinguish this from any immediate response)
The third response is how Joe Paterno handled it. Again, giving Giga's ideas more thought, I think Joe Pa. might have chosen a fairly understandable path, but again, it gets down to specifically what he learned from McQueary.
The 4th and final response, would be how the Penn St administration handled the issue. On this one, I will have to reserve judgment. If they investigated it, and it ended up being a "he said/she said" issue, then I understand their hesitancy to act swiftly or severely.
All of that being said, as the details continue to come out and this story continues to unfold, I think we all look for where "we" went wrong. We just can't understand this and certainly wish it to never happen again. Something about learning from mistakes or being forced to repeat them comes to mind.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on Nov 9, 2011 14:55:42 GMT -5
If this has been going on since 1994, I would think that it is closaer to 100 than 20 victims. I'm friends with a girl who went to PSU and worked at Sandusky's camp for three years. She said that, every night, a boy who did well during the day was rewarded with some special "Jerry time" and got to go to his room alone for a couple hours. She said most nights was a different boy. I bet the real number is well into the hundreds. How is this not a red flag in and of itself? I just don't understand how this had been going on for so long and NO ONE did anything about it. Fine, everyone at PSU covered it up and that's really bad. But it seems like a whole lot of people outside the PSU circle could have known about it too and nothing was done. I don't even want to think about this anymore. Its just infuriating.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Nov 9, 2011 14:56:09 GMT -5
McQueary was friends with Sandusky's kids apparently--and was shocked. We all understand the shock--but didn't the rage/anger of seeing child molestation kick in and make you want to not just inform the police but also save the kid? I don't care if you are a coach or janitor, you have a responsibility as a human being to protect the innocent and if anything, someone who is aspiring to teach/lead young men and help them become a better people in his profession should carry that with them.
Coaching community/fraternity has a lot of things they "hear". OJ McDuffie the former PSU player said he heard rumors of this in the State College community so it's hard to believe other staff members didn't and these guys ALL talk.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Nov 9, 2011 15:13:14 GMT -5
I heard Paterno's address to the crowd on the news last night, and all I can say is, ugh. He really seems to not grasp the enormity of what's transpired here. What's more, if Paterno really cares about the team, what's his best course of action? I say to retire immediately. He's going to lead these kids into Columbus and Madison? It's going to be a complete circus. I think he owes it to the team to retire and let the players get on with their lives. They certainly didn't do anything wrong. Agree completely Rooter. How the hell does this guy not understand this is NOT ABOUT HIM? Very fact he acknowledged the "rally" last night tells me he's even more clueless then I imagined and sick in the head. How does he make child molestation and sexual abuse about his occupational career? Then the nerve to announce he'll "Retire" at end of year? As if that is some sacrifice or sign that he gets the magnitude of this? Pathetic. As the info continues to come out, I find myself even more enraged at Paterno and place even more blame upon him. He had the chance to do the correct thing--didn't. He didn't protect anyone--he created an atmosphere where a sexual predator was allowed to ruin/abuse/humiliate/destroy several young people's lives and all for what? Loyalty to a colleague? If Paterno is so incapable of being able to make correct judgements, then he should've been let go back then. I also don't want to hear anything of his age or fact he was an "old man who might not understand". Who doesn't understand child molestation being inhumane and disgusting? I only wish he suffers the same pain and misery the poor victims had to and seeing him respond to a Rally and "volunteer" to retire at year's end is as big of a slap in face to victims and their families as it gets. He should have to face them and maybe then he'd understand the significance of this. I highly doubt it--he'd probably want to give them free passes for life to PSU games knowing how ignorant/arrogant this sick person has proven to be.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Nov 9, 2011 15:26:27 GMT -5
McQueary was friends with Sandusky's kids apparently--and was shocked. We all understand the shock--but didn't the rage/anger of seeing child molestation kick in and make you want to not just inform the police but also save the kid? I don't care if you are a coach or janitor, you have a responsibility as a human being to protect the innocent and if anything, someone who is aspiring to teach/lead young men and help them become a better people in his profession should carry that with them. 1. I agree completely with the above RDF. 2. Can we please STOP with the " He said She said" comparisons? It wasn't just McQueary and Sandusky, there was a KID there!
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Nov 9, 2011 15:42:46 GMT -5
I'm friends with a girl who went to PSU and worked at Sandusky's camp for three years. She said that, every night, a boy who did well during the day was rewarded with some special "Jerry time" and got to go to his room alone for a couple hours. She said most nights was a different boy. I bet the real number is well into the hundreds. How is this not a red flag in and of itself? I just don't understand how this had been going on for so long and NO ONE did anything about it. Fine, everyone at PSU covered it up and that's really bad. But it seems like a whole lot of people outside the PSU circle could have known about it too and nothing was done. I don't even want to think about this anymore. Its just infuriating. Good question. My friend is currently distraught and beating herself up over this wondering how she didn't notice and why she didn't do anything.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Nov 9, 2011 16:07:38 GMT -5
How is this not a red flag in and of itself? I just don't understand how this had been going on for so long and NO ONE did anything about it. Fine, everyone at PSU covered it up and that's really bad. But it seems like a whole lot of people outside the PSU circle could have known about it too and nothing was done. I don't even want to think about this anymore. Its just infuriating. Good question. My friend is currently distraught and beating herself up over this wondering how she didn't notice and why she didn't do anything. Because you don't assume people are pedophiles! That's why they get away with it for so long. If they acted like sexual deviants in public, they would already be arrested. It's always easy after the fact but it makes so little sense, you don't even believe something as obvious as what you actually witness. This is traumatic stuff here. Everyone says "If I were Mcquearey, I'd have punched him in the mouth." I actually think I would have probably vomited first.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Nov 9, 2011 16:22:15 GMT -5
Good question. My friend is currently distraught and beating herself up over this wondering how she didn't notice and why she didn't do anything. Because you don't assume people are pedophiles! That's why they get away with it for so long. If they acted like sexual deviants in public, they would already be arrested. It's always easy after the fact but it makes so little sense, you don't even believe something as obvious as what you actually witness. This is traumatic stuff here. Everyone says "If I were Mcquearey, I'd have punched him in the mouth." I actually think I would have probably vomited first. You would have vomited first. Fine. Chances are you would not have left him to finish his rape and then gne home to ask your Dad what to do, allowing the perpetrator to get rid of the evidence and get the victim away from the crime scene. McQueary's conduct is inexcusable. Where Sandusky is a monster, McQueary is a coward who clearly profited from his cowardice andsilence.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Nov 9, 2011 16:40:56 GMT -5
Because you don't assume people are pedophiles! That's why they get away with it for so long. If they acted like sexual deviants in public, they would already be arrested. It's always easy after the fact but it makes so little sense, you don't even believe something as obvious as what you actually witness. This is traumatic stuff here. Everyone says "If I were Mcquearey, I'd have punched him in the mouth." I actually think I would have probably vomited first. You would have vomited first. Fine. Chances are you would not have left him to finish his rape and then gne home to ask your Dad what to do, allowing the perpetrator to get rid of the evidence and get the victim away from the crime scene. McQueary's conduct is inexcusable. Where Sandusky is a monster, McQueary is a coward who clearly profited from his cowardice andsilence. I do find it interesting that Sandusky was caught red-handed twice by two very different types of people for the purposes of this incident; a janitor and an assistant coach. One insider and one outsider. Neither did anything. I said I'd call the cops but who knows? I don't want to turn both these people into monsters. Most of us are cowards. That's why courage is so revered.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Nov 9, 2011 16:58:36 GMT -5
But 9 years? C'mon. 9 years of watching Sandusky bring kids to the campus, to summer camps, to bowl games and to who knows where else. At some point you have to be compelled to do something.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 9, 2011 17:01:46 GMT -5
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Nov 9, 2011 17:07:19 GMT -5
To be fair, Joe Pa has said repeatedly to pray for the victims, that this is one of the great sorrows of his life, and that he wishes he would have done more. It's not like he is remorseless. And that pep rally outside his house was outside of his control. These are his fans, he had to at least acknowledge them. There is also a lot that we don't know about this case, including how much Paterno really knew from McQuery. That may be the deciding factor in whether or not Paterno will coach this weekend, or beyond.
However, in his statement, he talked about "spending the rest of his life doing everything he can to help this University." I would have rather heard him talk more about doing everything he can to help the victims. He wishes he did more? Well, you can't undo the past, but you can control the future by doing everything you can to help the victims now. After all, this occurred under your watch. And his statement that the Board of Trustees shouldn't spend another minute discussing his status (because of the announcement of his retirement) seemed pretty arrogant, to me.
There is a lot of blame to go around, and Paterno certainly deserves a great deal of it. I would really like to see him hold that press conference, make a statement, and field questions about the case from the media, so that we could all have at least a little bit of peace of mind.
My guess is that he will be allowed to coach Saturday's game vs. Nebraska, but no more.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Nov 9, 2011 17:15:03 GMT -5
Also, as sickening as the 2002 incident in the shower must have been, it offered a very rare opportunity to catch a rapist in the act, and bring him to immediate justice. Apparently these clear cut instances (with a witness) are extremely rare in these cases. Yet the ball was dropped, one of numerous times.
I'm sure I would have experienced shock too, but at the very least, something, anything, could have been done right then and there, instead of much, much later.
Was it illegal to run away? No. But was it immoral? I think most of us can agree on that one.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 9, 2011 17:24:39 GMT -5
And his statement that the Board of Trustees shouldn't spend another minute discussing his status (because of the announcement of his retirement) seemed pretty arrogant, to me. That struck me as his Craig Esherick "I could coach here for 30 more years" moment. Nothing is going to anger the Board of Trustees more than Paterno trying to speak for them and boss them around and tell them what's best for Penn State.
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