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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 31, 2012 14:59:45 GMT -5
Rosslyn - I have my doubts that claims of minority status had any bearing on Warren's law school hiring, much less that it would be a matter of any convenience to her as an applicant.
The controversy speaks to a bigger issue as it relates to these kinds of self-identifications. If a woman was 1/32 African-American but had dark skin, what does society tell her that she should mark down? I hope I am wrong, but I think I might only be wrong because people would not want her to "take my spot," not because she should have any choice in the matter.
It also begs the question of where Drudge and the other folks have been on the myth of the Rubio family oppression.
Regardless, this issue distracts from a larger issue. Warren is an incredibly gifted person - her public service and scholarship bear it out, even if they are controversial. Unfortunately, the race is not being fought on that turf (win or lose), or that political races are not fought on that turf more frequently.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on May 31, 2012 15:19:46 GMT -5
Drudge does not need to cover Rubio because the mainstream media, while not otherwise cheerleading for the White House or having a barbecue with Michele, does a fine job of that all by itself.
Elizabeth Warren can call herself an Eskimo for all I care. If she actually was able to leverage that self-identification for preference on a job--then the one hiring her should be ashamed.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 31, 2012 15:25:57 GMT -5
Drudge does not need to cover Rubio because the mainstream media, while not otherwise cheerleading for the White House or having a barbecue with Michele, does a fine job of that all by itself. Elizabeth Warren can call herself an Eskimo for all I care. If she actually was able to leverage that self-identification for preference on a job--then the one hiring her should be ashamed. Could it be that it is not really a national issue as much as Rubio's is because he is considered a VP candidate and basically has been since his ascent a few years ago? I am not sure how many serious law school deans you could find who hire on the basis of minority status rather than scholarship and related considerations. |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 31, 2012 20:03:40 GMT -5
Drudge does not need to cover Rubio because the mainstream media, while not otherwise cheerleading for the White House or having a barbecue with Michele, does a fine job of that all by itself. Elizabeth Warren can call herself an Eskimo for all I care. If she actually was able to leverage that self-identification for preference on a job--then the one hiring her should be ashamed. I am not sure how many serious law school deans you could find who hire on the basis of minority status rather than scholarship and related considerations. That's not the sole issue. Why would she list herself as a minority when she's not? Why would she lie about listing herself as a minority? Why submit fake "Indian" recipes to a cookbook when she cribbed them from elsewhere? Maybe she's not worse than other politicians, but she's every bit a politician as everyone else running for the Senate this year. |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 31, 2012 20:15:46 GMT -5
KC - Who is to say she is not a minority? That's the inherent problem with these forms, many of which ask what you view yourself as. I don't agree with the forms either and how these questions are often worded, but my guess is that she did what many people would have done.
Consider another situation - I think many of us ask what we are that contemplates an answer other than "American." You may be French, Danish, Kenyan, Turkish, or whatever. Should we disclaim that if our ancestors came over in the 18th century, where the fraction might be 1/64 or 2/64, or are we all too American now?
Now, I'd prefer to see these forms and how the information was requested/reported (i.e. could they be a check all that apply form), particularly where a lead catalyst of this controversy is the Boston Herald, in which monikers like "fake Indian" are printed in the first sentence of news articles and articles are sprinkled with cheeky comments about wigwams and the like. Some liberal press this.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on May 31, 2012 20:22:20 GMT -5
KC - Who is to say she is not a minority? That's the inherent problem with these forms, many of which ask what you view yourself as. I don't agree with the forms either and how these questions are often worded, but my guess is that she did what many people would have done. Consider another situation - I think many of us ask what we are that contemplates an answer other than "American." You may be French, Danish, Kenyan, Turkish, or whatever. Should we disclaim that if our ancestors came over in the 18th century, where the fraction might be 1/64 or 2/64, or are we all too American now? Now, I'd prefer to see these forms and how the information was requested/reported, particularly where a lead catalyst of this controversy is the Boston Herald, in which monikers like "fake Indian" are printed in the first sentence of news articles and articles are sprinkled with cheeky comments about wigwams and the like. Some liberal press this. If the government is going to privilege people because of their minority status, the government is going to have to define it. Warren is not a minority under the government's definition, which means she shouldn't have told her employers that she was a Native American. |
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Post by kchoya on May 31, 2012 20:42:02 GMT -5
KC - Who is to say she is not a minority? Any reasonable person would admit she's not a minority. Do you think she's a minority? |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 31, 2012 20:49:15 GMT -5
For affirmative action, I am not sure the line is so bright. In practice, I am not sure really how much scrutiny is required to benefit if you are a Native American, African-American, or what have you. The University of Michigan will not chase down a family tree or anything of the like.
As best I can tell, Warren reported her status through Harvard on some AALS form where Harvard stood to benefit from listing her as a Native American. No disclosure had anything to do with hiring or promotion. What occurred simply calls out for an e-mail to all faculty with a check all that apply, and an overzealous administrator picking the most beneficial for each faculty member kind of thing.
I don't think much of affirmative action as a policy, but underneath some of the conservative criticism of Warren is envy - the thought that she might have found a way to pig out on a government program that is ostensibly not meant for people like her or her critics, when those critics would just as much have liked to benefit from it.
Unfortunately, there are no easy answers - this kind of discussion raises issues of what is African-American or Native American, or name your group. Is Barack Obama an African-American? I think most would say yes, but he is 50% African-American, so what box does he check, when the other 50% is Caucasian? The one that society tells him he should check? What if he (or someone like him) would want to be considered white? Or, what if a 50% Hispanic/50% White person wanted to identify as white, would society allow such a person to self-identify like that?
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 31, 2012 20:53:01 GMT -5
KC - Who is to say she is not a minority? Any reasonable person would admit she's not a minority. Do you think she's a minority? I don't but am not sure she would disagree either, having not seen the forms myself but only mouth-foaming reports of them and apparent misrepresentations of them, including in this thread. My problem is that "minority" and such labels have no bright line, and there is not much sense in having the line at 18/32 as opposed to 16/32 or 14/32 when the policy is ostensibly designed to benefit underprivileged rather than people of certain backgrounds, ethnicities, and races. |
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Post by kchoya on Jun 1, 2012 8:46:53 GMT -5
Any reasonable person would admit she's not a minority. Do you think she's a minority? I don't but am not sure she would disagree either, having not seen the forms myself but only mouth-foaming reports of them and apparent misrepresentations of them, including in this thread. My problem is that "minority" and such labels have no bright line, and there is not much sense in having the line at 18/32 as opposed to 16/32 or 14/32 when the policy is ostensibly designed to benefit underprivileged rather than people of certain backgrounds, ethnicities, and races. Wherever the line is, she's nowhere close to it. At most, by her own admission, she's 1/32 Cherokee. The debate about how to label someone and what constitutes a "minority" is irrelevant to Elizabeth Warren. |
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jun 1, 2012 8:53:18 GMT -5
Ambassador, thou doth defend her to extremes.
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Jun 1, 2012 8:56:09 GMT -5
I love how the right is pretending to actually care about this...
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Post by kchoya on Jun 1, 2012 9:00:30 GMT -5
I love how the right is pretending to actually care about this... You're right. It's not like the mainstream media, like the Washington Post, is now covering the story. If you're not bothered that she lied then and she's lying now, then that's your prerogative. |
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Jun 1, 2012 9:29:23 GMT -5
I love how the right is pretending to actually care about this... You're right. It's not like the mainstream media, like the Washington Post, is now covering the story. If you're not bothered that she lied then and she's lying now, then that's your prerogative. For THIS to be an issue that really gets your blood boiling is strange to me. The "mainstream media" believe it or not eventually picks up and runs with things that the right-wing bubble media harps on about, whether or not it is a big issue. I'm not saying it's right (though I don't know enough about it to say how right/wrong it is when all information is considered), but really, it's the kind of small controversy that we could get outraged about every single day. It's more like being shocked, SHOCKED that gambling is going on in this establishment. |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jun 1, 2012 15:41:49 GMT -5
I love how the right is pretending to actually care about this... They do care, but only because of the election. Indeed, Scott Brown has claimed that the late Ted Kennedy would have supported him in the past. That's not the measure of a Republican of the kind the conservatives on this board would support but we manage to forget. For my part, I think Elizabeth Warren would make a better senator than Scott Brown, who has not distinguished himself in any positive respect. She has distinguished herself at every level of service that she has provided in public and private life and is one of the leading living bankruptcy scholars (if not the leading bankruptcy scholar alive today). That kind of knowledge would be valuable in today's Congress, particularly when foreclosure issues are so acute nationally. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jun 2, 2012 2:55:47 GMT -5
Yes, because the left REALLY cared about the fact that Jack Ryan may have gone to an S&M club with his hottie wife. I mean, they were outraged!!!
All these years later, we'd all be much better off if he had just said, "Hey, honey. Let's rent a porno."
We may disagree on the extent to which Elizabeth Warren has "distinguished" herself.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jun 3, 2012 18:38:57 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 1, 2012 14:20:18 GMT -5
Yes, let's be more like China.  This woman was a professor at Harvard? |
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ksf42001
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Post by ksf42001 on Aug 1, 2012 14:54:47 GMT -5
Yes, let's be more like China. This woman was a professor at Harvard? So everything China does is bad? |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 1, 2012 15:18:34 GMT -5
Yes, let's be more like China. This woman was a professor at Harvard? So everything China does is bad? Ends? No. Means? Pretty much, yeah. |
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This woman was a professor at Harvard?