IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,528
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Post by IDenj on Mar 19, 2011 23:02:05 GMT -5
MOD NOTE: These posts moved out of the Otto Porter thread. Note the board rules that specific discussion speculating on current players and possible transfers are not allowed. This forum is no different in that regard.I have a feeling that Crash's information is reliable. If III is still pushing for Porter, that's a good thing. OTOH, it doesn't mean we'll get him, particularly if Anderson stays. So please, no nonsense from anybody that we blew it with Porter if he opts for Mizzou. If we are still involved with Porter, that is not a good thing at all. The exact opposite.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 19, 2011 23:18:31 GMT -5
I have a feeling that Crash's information is reliable. If III is still pushing for Porter, that's a good thing. OTOH, it doesn't mean we'll get him, particularly if Anderson stays. So please, no nonsense from anybody that we blew it with Porter if he opts for Mizzou. If we are still involved with Porter, that is not a good thing at all. The exact opposite. What do you mean by that Enj? Do you feel staying on Porter means the staff will not get other targets?
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ksf42001
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by ksf42001 on Mar 20, 2011 0:55:17 GMT -5
If we are still involved with Porter, that is not a good thing at all. The exact opposite. What do you mean by that Enj? Do you feel staying on Porter means the staff will not get other targets? I'm assuming he means that continuing to recruit Porter implies that either a current player will transfer or that the staff is willing to force someone out to make room for him. UConn has seemed to utilize the latter pretty often in the past, and I'm firmly of the belief that it's something I'd prefer we avoid if at all possible.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Mar 20, 2011 8:24:32 GMT -5
I don't think it does any good to speculate about pushing kids out. Assuming that a kid has come to the school, maintained his grades and abided by the coaches' rules for practice and conduct, I would be strongly opposed to anyone being pushed out. If a kid is wanting more playing time or a "better fit" that is on him, but for the coach to break a contract with the kid and his family because he has not proven to be as good as expected would be a slippery slope that should be avoided.
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Post by thejerseytornado on Mar 20, 2011 11:04:27 GMT -5
Uconn clearly does it. curtis kelly, marcus williams, doug wiggins all essentially asked to leave. there is a fine line between input on future playing time and your not getting off the bench. If we need to find scholarship spots we will. If we are the least bit hesitant about doing this then maybe its time for the CAA. I don't want to be Conn. Not in any way shape or form. We can beat Conn without being Conn. I'm not going to cry if a back of the bench player is told he won't play and/or even asked to go elsewhere. I'll be mad if this becomes a common action of the staff. It's pretty common at Conn. It's pretty common elsewhere. It doesn't have to be common. It can be managed and made a rarity that comes only of having unexpected levels of success while recruiting. I think this year is an example of that--did we really expect to find a potential diamond in the rough, a duke decommit, a classic philly style player, and a dematha guy + another hidden diamond (Porter)? No. but if we do the same thing next year, that's not learning to adjust to what JT3/Kirby can do on the trail well. and doing it a third time would be a real problem to me. you can win and win classy.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 20, 2011 11:08:03 GMT -5
We don't do it and I don't think UConn does either. Calhoun just gives kids an honest assessment of what he sees there role to be on the team going forward, even if that's "I don't see you playing much the next few years." This topic gets really frustrating. People demand top talent but get their panties in a wad when the "scholarship count" is being approached. Look, there is about a 100% chance we're gonna lose one or more guys this offseason. Just come to grips with it. These guys are not stupid and they see the writing on the wall like everybody else. They want to try their hand somewhere else where they have a better chance to excel. It's best for everyone. If a kid is happy with being a career reserve III is not gonna take his scholarship away (Dizdarevic, Crawford, Sims) but most kids these days aren't willing to play that role. Transfers are gonna happen and the staff knows it. I'm glad they are trying to land a guy like Porter with that open spot rather than sitting on their hands just because some stodgy old fans don't know how the game works and are squeamish about the damn scholarship count. Uconn does it RB, without question.. Calhoun is no joke. I don't know, it just seems unsavory to me. You can couch it how you want too but when a coach gives a player the "I don't know how you fit in" speech he's asking the kid to leave.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Mar 20, 2011 11:15:04 GMT -5
Win...win...win.......scholarships are renewable every year. Kids go pro so why is it bad if a kid is told to look somewhere else for whatever reason? This is not inter-murals this is D1 basketball where jobs are on the line every year. This is big business please never forget that. If Porter wants in he gets in.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 20, 2011 11:19:33 GMT -5
I don't disagree with you sleepy but I'm always amazed how people talk with such certainty about what goes on behind closed doors. Unless you're the player or the coach, how is anybody so sure that UConn does it on the regular? To me there is a big difference between telling a guy "You're welcome to stay, but I have to be honest with you, I don't see a lot of minutes for you going forward" and "You're not welcome on this team anymore and if you come back there is no scholarship (renewable from year to year) waiting for you." I really don't have any problem with the former, and I really don't know how anybody can say with certainty that UConn is doing the latter and not the former. I vaguely remember one of the guys who transferred out saying that he was kind of surprised by it etc., but it still sounded more like the former than the latter. People are just eager to label Calhoun as whatever, start talking about "class", how we have it and they don't etc.
To tornado's point, I for one don't really care how often it happens. It is the reality of modern basketball. 13 scholarships and 8-9 man rotations. Any given year you've got 4-5 guys on the roster not playing. Maybe in decades past those guys would stick around, but not these days. Careers at stake, too much pride, the rise of mid/low majors etc.... just too many good reasons to try somewhere else. Majority of kids will leave a school if they're not on track to be a starter by the end of their soph year, if not earlier.
The times have changed. The sooner people come to grips with that the better.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Mar 20, 2011 11:26:55 GMT -5
Calhoun is a legend. Bronxitos loves him. Do not care what goes on behind the scenes life is a bottom line business. JT3 needs to learn to recruit like Calhoun and stack the deck at all cost. As soon as a kid signs you begin to recruit over him. No one is promised anything but practices will be more competitive than most of the games you will play.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 20, 2011 11:45:48 GMT -5
Calhoun is a legend. Bronxitos loves him. Do not care what goes on behind the scenes life is a bottom line business. JT3 needs to learn to recruit like Calhoun and stack the deck at all cost. As soon as a kid signs you begin to recruit over him. No one is promised anything but practices will be more competitive than most of the games you will play. You should be competing as hard as you can every practice, and no one should ever feel so comfortable with their spot that they slack off. We agree there. Calhoun is finally being exposed as a cheater who lets his underlings do whatever possible no matter the rules; his "legacy" will now be forever tarnished. If that is what is needed to be a "legend", let's hope JTIII never becomes a legend. And at our school, at least, a scholarship should be a 4-year agreement with a kid that as long as he does his schoolwork, stays out of trouble, and works hard on the court and in the weight room, he will have the opportunity to compete for playing time every year, with no promises, but also with the guarantee that he will remain a Hoya. Again, if that is not going to be the case, we need to seriously reassess our program and its place in the University. But I am confident that will never be a problem under JTIII.
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Post by thejerseytornado on Mar 20, 2011 11:47:58 GMT -5
Calhoun is a legend. Bronxitos loves him. Do not care what goes on behind the scenes life is a bottom line business. JT3 needs to learn to recruit like Calhoun and stack the deck at all cost. As soon as a kid signs you begin to recruit over him. No one is promised anything but practices will be more competitive than most of the games you will play. again, recruiting the same spot + a better player is different from recruiting 14 or 15 people when you only have 13 scholarships. It's something that can also be used against you on the trail (why'd we get Adams? He got recruited over and got mad), as well. I'm sure people bash UConn on the trail for Calhoun's practice of recruiting over people. Life is not a business. Basketball is both a business and a very personal relationship. I'd hope that a good coach can both be a successful businessman + also no screw around with 19 year olds by promising them the moon + then taking it away. We know JT3 doesn't overpromise. I hope he'd stay equally classy once players are on campus. Bottomline, in the last 8 years, Georgetown--without recruiting over people much, if at all--has been MORE competitive than Conn. We don't need to recruit like Calhoun to be better than Conn. We've been to a sweet 16 and a Final Four under JT3. Same as Conn since 2005. We've generally held our own/beaten conn under JT3. We've won the Big East tourney once--same as conn, and we've won the big east regular season twice, same as conn. Conn, meanwhile, has a HOF coach, Div 1 football, and no esherick years to contend with (along with, I'd bet, better facilities). We can beat them both on the court + in terms of classiness at the same time.
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alleninxis
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by alleninxis on Mar 20, 2011 11:53:39 GMT -5
it is very possible that JTIII (along with 99% of other high major DI coaches) has told kids he has recruited past and present, we have a scholarship for you if you want to come and we will evaluate where you stand after 1, 2 years. (remember, a scholarship is renewable each year).
If the kid is okay with that and wants the chance to play at a program on the level of Georgetown's & in the Big East, and see if he can make it -- it's not a dirty tactic, it's not being classless. It's just reality and some kids know the deal coming in.
what Calhoun does..well..I'm doubtful he operates in the same manner.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Mar 20, 2011 12:08:54 GMT -5
Show Bronxitos when a Calhoun team go destroyed by mid major teams in the tourney 2 years in a row. Show Bronxitos when a Calhoun coached team gave zero effort? Show me when a Calhoun coached team was soft as baby feces.
Come on comparing favorably an elite program like Yukon to a 3rd tier program like Gtown is insane. Be realistic or this convo is not worthwhile.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 20, 2011 12:10:26 GMT -5
I don't disagree with you sleepy but I'm always amazed how people talk with such certainty about what goes on behind closed doors. Unless you're the player or the coach, how is anybody so sure that UConn does it on the regular? To me there is a big difference between telling a guy "You're welcome to stay, but I have to be honest with you, I don't see a lot of minutes for you going forward" and "You're not welcome on this team anymore and if you come back there is no scholarship (renewable from year to year) waiting for you." I really don't have any problem with the former, and I really don't know how anybody can say with certainty that UConn is doing the latter and not the former. I vaguely remember one of the guys who transferred out saying that he was kind of surprised by it etc., but it still sounded more like the former than the latter. People are just eager to label Calhoun as whatever, start talking about "class", how we have it and they don't etc. To tornado's point, I for one don't really care how often it happens. It is the reality of modern basketball. 13 scholarships and 8-9 man rotations. Any given year you've got 4-5 guys on the roster not playing. Maybe in decades past those guys would stick around, but not these days. Careers at stake, too much pride, the rise of mid/low majors etc.... just too many good reasons to try somewhere else. Majority of kids will leave a school if they're not on track to be a starter by the end of their soph year, if not earlier. The times have changed. The sooner people come to grips with that the better. www.aolnews.com/2007/03/20/uconn-starts-roster-turnover/
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alleninxis
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by alleninxis on Mar 20, 2011 12:15:15 GMT -5
Show Bronxitos when a Calhoun coached team gave zero effort? Show me when a Calhoun coached team was soft as baby feces. Last year?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 20, 2011 12:19:30 GMT -5
Show Bronxitos when a Calhoun team go destroyed by mid major teams in the tourney 2 years in a row. Show Bronxitos when a Calhoun coached team gave zero effort? Show me when a Calhoun coached team was soft as baby feces. Come on comparing favorably an elite program like Yukon to a 3rd tier program like Gtown is insane. Be realistic or this convo is not worthwhile. Show me when Georgetown was found guilty twice of cheating, and its head coach was found to have allowed the cheating to take place without caring about it. Is that really what you want us to become? And to label GU as a "third-tier"program is a ridiculous characterization. We may not be right at the top tier of college basketball - but UConn is not that high above us, I hate to tell you. As mentioned above, the 2 programs have actually been amazingly similar in results over the last 6 years. And we did not cheat to get there.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 20, 2011 12:23:12 GMT -5
it is very possible that JTIII (along with 99% of other high major DI coaches) has told kids he has recruited past and present, we have a scholarship for you if you want to come and we will evaluate where you stand after 1, 2 years. (remember, a scholarship is renewable each year). If the kid is okay with that and wants the chance to play at a program on the level of Georgetown's & in the Big East, and see if he can make it -- it's not a dirty tactic, it's not being classless. It's just reality and some kids know the deal coming in. what Calhoun does..well..I'm doubtful he operates in the same manner. I don't know exactly what goes on in our program, but I think it is far more likely that JTIII tells each kid exactly where he stands at the end of each season - including the likelihood that the kid will see little or no playing time the next season unless he makes drastic improvements in certain aspects of his game, which is an absolutely fair practice, but far different from literally cutting a kid loose because he has not developed or because you have recruited over him.
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Post by strummer8526 on Mar 20, 2011 12:28:14 GMT -5
Show Bronxitos when a Calhoun team go destroyed by mid major teams in the tourney 2 years in a row. Show Bronxitos when a Calhoun coached team gave zero effort? Show me when a Calhoun coached team was soft as baby feces. Come on comparing favorably an elite program like Yukon to a 3rd tier program like Gtown is insane. Be realistic or this convo is not worthwhile.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by RBHoya on Mar 20, 2011 12:32:38 GMT -5
Whether people want to believe it or not, JTIII could say the exact same thing. Right now. He is just not nearly as outspoken or public about it as Calhoun is. EDITED. That's why the staff is out there continuing to scout 2011 talent. JTIII therefore could easily say the same thing, that some of the current guys are going to try their hand at a different level and that there will be turnover. Calhoun is just unabashed about it. People can say that is "not classy" if they want, but the situation still isn't that different. Why is it difficult for people to accept that in a lot of cases it's in the best interest of both parties? To me, not only is it fair for a coach to give a kid an honest assessment of his prospects at the end of each year, but it's his responsibility. Does anybody think it's in ANYONE'S best interest to not at least let a kid know if he's unlikely to factor into the plans in the future? Look at some of the kids we've seen transfer through the years, and for most it's tough to argue that it didn't work out well. They've done well on the mid-major level, and we've been able to use the roster spot for somebody who can play on the BE level. A transfer does not mean somebody's life is thrown into shambles and they're kicked out onto the street like some people make it sound. A lot of times there is mutual agreement that it's time to go in another direction, and it works out ok for everyone. If the player seeks honest feedback from the coach in that situation, should the coach lie? Should the coach plead with him to stay around? It's always best for everyone to have an honest idea of where things stand. Otherwise player wastes away on the bench for 2-3 years, team can't recruit as aggressively, and nobody wins. You don't have to show anyone the door, but most times players see the writing on the wall, and if they don't and seek honest feedback from coaches, they ought to get it.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 20, 2011 12:37:21 GMT -5
Whether people want to believe it or not, JTIII could say the exact same thing. Right now. He is just not nearly as outspoken or public about it as Calhoun is. EDITED. That's why the staff is out there continuing to scout 2011 talent. JTIII therefore could easily say the same thing, that some of the current guys are going to try their hand at a different level and that there will be turnover. Calhoun is just unabashed about it. People can say that is "not classy" if they want, but the situation still isn't that different. Why is it difficult for people to accept that in a lot of cases it's in the best interest of both parties? To me, not only is it fair for a coach to give a kid an honest assessment of his prospects at the end of each year, but it's his responsibility. Does anybody think it's in ANYONE'S best interest to not at least let a kid know if he's unlikely to factor into the plans in the future? Look at some of the kids we've seen transfer through the years, and for most it's tough to argue that it didn't work out well. They've done well on the mid-major level, and we've been able to use the roster spot for somebody who can play on the BE level. A transfer does not mean somebody's life is thrown into shambles and they're kicked out onto the street like some people make it sound. A lot of times there is mutual agreement that it's time to go in another direction, and it works out ok for everyone. If the player seeks honest feedback from the coach in that situation, should the coach lie? Should the coach plead with him to stay around? It's always best for everyone to have an honest idea of where things stand. Otherwise player wastes away on the bench for 2-3 years, team can't recruit as aggressively, and nobody wins. You don't have to show anyone the door, but most times players see the writing on the wall, and if they don't and seek honest feedback from coaches, they ought to get it. I have no doubt that JTIII, like almost all other coaches, does give each player an honest assessment of his chances and of his place in the program going forward. I don't think anyone would argue that it is not sometimes just mutually beneficial for a kid to try to succeed in a different situation. But if a kid, knowing that it is very unlikely that he will see any significant playing time in the future, still wants to stay at GU, get a great degree, and work hard in practice to make himself and his teammates better, he should be allowed to do that. Period.
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